Should milling be a genuine supported strategy in standard Hearthstone?

OK so here's my unpopular opinion question for January. I've been on the good and bad side of milling whilst playing Hearthstone. I understand its weakness and strengths and  that it can feel bad to play against. But what i dont see  is that it's any underhand than any of the shenanigans going on right now. There is some support fot it at the moment mainly in druid and some neutrals but I feel like it's kinda missing from the standard meta game, even though it would get thrashed by aggro

I think that when you are playing against a mill deck and you are not aggro there is this psychological pressure that you must maintain your hand size and play your outs as quickly as possible and that adds another layer to the game that's not there at the moment. 

I don't think the developers would do this and I realise I could just play wild to play this strategy but my post is more about standard. I think a 4 cost coldlight type  neutral card would be fair.

What are your thoughts? 

Blizzard said they want to minimize the capability you can influence your opponent's deck and hand. Combo is still a playstyle after all.

It has always been a fringe archetype both in its original game Magic and in HS.

Its place in standard shouldn't exist. Kills control all together. U cant manage ur hand size when u cant play more then one card until turn 7 or 8. Specially in decks that already has draw cards. 

Its hated in Magic and its hated in HS for good reason.

I had a thought about this when Valdris Felgorge was revealed: while obviously valuable in all variants of Handlock, that card could also be a "pre-counter" to a return of mill decks. It reminded me when, after they revealed all the Highlander cards in SoU, one of the devs said that's why they introduced so many bomb/other "shuffle [X] into opponents deck" mechanics in RoS - effectively they set up the counter before introducing the main mechanic so there wouldn't be a runaway Highlander shitfest. Perhaps you're not alone in thinking about a resurgence?

Personally I would hate the hell out of that as Mill decks DO feel super crappy to play against, even moreso than OTK combo decks. But then again I hate Res Priest as an archetype with equal fervor and Blizz won't seem to let that die so all my angry letters don't seem to have much effect on their planing :)

Probably not in Standard.

Mill scares people i guess, even if it just accomplishes the same role as Combo as anti-Control archetype.

On the other hand, Aggro/Burn is so unchecked in Wild (due to ridiculous card draw to Aggro, and ludicrously efficient board clears to Burn), that Mill is simply hopeless there, where it would belong.

I agree with most of the other commenters that it shouldn't be in standard.  I hate milling like I hate OTK decks.  They're not fun to play against and Blizzard shouldnt  promote them.  (They also need to stop making resurrect cards for priest but that's another topic) Usually once I realize someone is just milling or setting up for some sort of combo I just quit.  Sure they get the win but I value my time more and I'm not going to waste it on some BS like Mill or combo/otk.   

I absolutely LOATHE decks like wild Mill Rogue (especially since I am a combo/OTK 'main'), BUT I still feel it should be kept in the game and lightly supported with future cards in the future (as long as it doesn't get to ridiculous levels). 

The more diverse cards/strats/interactions the more varied and interesting the game will be. HS gets boring when you more or less have have just a few playstyles that play, more or less, exactly the same with just a new name/theme/tribe slapped onto it. Plus, I am wholeheartedly against the concept of there never being matches that force pure 'stall' control decks from actually trying to kill you with pressure or a finisher. Mill accomplishes exactly that; control will never win by out valuing mill. 

First off: you're conflating the various types of mill.  There are cards that directly burn (e.g., Gnomeferatu, Fel Reaver) and there are cards that force your opponent to draw which will result in draw if they have too many cards.  "Milling" is a reference to the original MtG card Millstone which mechanically was like the former, its just that in HS the overdraw mechanic is much more prevalent so we've associated it with that term.

Regarding the latter: personally I'm OK with forced-draw strategies becoming flavors-of-the-month every so often just to provide a change up, but I don't think they should ever become evergreen.  Since giving your opponent cards is ostensibly a negative side effect, it's very difficult to properly balance those cards (looking at you, Naturalize), plus they create extremely polarizing match-ups.  And the games against true overdraw decks really aren't too fun--you feel more like you're fighting HS rules than combating an opponent.  I just can't imagine a world were having those decks as a constant threat in standard makes it more enjoyable.

Regarding the former: I could potentially see this in evergreen if it was changed to be part of the class's identify, and only that single class had access.  I think a lot of the class identify stuff is very muddy right now, and this is definitely a novel mechanic that they could popularize to make something feel different.  That said: if they want to go that route, I think they really need to look at taking away / constraining first before they start adding.

I really don't mind drawing others to fatigue as a strategy or win condition, but milling as a win condition is just too polarising. It tends to make certain matches 'unfun' for your opponent, an auto concede when facing a deck that is tailor made to destroy your archetype.

If it must exist in hearthstone there needs to be cards that allow you to access milled cards, or to increase your deck size. Both concepts are cancerous, as with those 2 hours dead man's hand warrior mirrors. Imagine having that on a tournament. Most viewers will rightfully turn off their sets.

I agree with LyraSilvertongue.  Especially "The more diverse cards/strats/interactions the more varied and interesting the game will be" and "I am wholeheartedly against the concept of there never being matches that force pure 'stall' control decks from actually trying to kill you with pressure or a finisher".

I also like Combo / OTK / Mill decks. But still, I also think such decks shouldn't  be the main part of the meta.

Blizzard can introduce some cards to fight back against Mill decks. It's not impossible to create cards with interactions against Mill. It might be for example interaction with Graveyard in HS... which can also help against Resurrect Priest in the long run :)

I haven't played Mill for quite a while, but I do enjoy that Archetype, because of that weird win condition it provides.

To let Control-Players choke on their own greedy, value-generating Cards or see how important Combo pieces get burned... just wonderful  :)

But I do agree that Mill is frustrating to play against/hard to counter. Mill-Rogue only needed one Card that makes your Opponent draw, and it became one of the most hated Decks of all time. If there is ever gonna be a card like Coldlight Oracle, I doubt the Devs would make it neutral, just so Rogue can't use it.

Maybe they'll print more Cards that counter Mill (Someone mentioned Valdris Felgorge), which would allow for that Strategy to exist.

I also think the Team could experiment more with Cards that fill your Opponents Hand with copies of The Coin. That wouldn't be too oppressive and there's already Stuff like Booty Bay Bookie or Soldier of Fortune, so maybe that could be the way for Mill. 

Quote From KingKrush

I agree with most of the other commenters that it shouldn't be in standard.  I hate milling like I hate OTK decks.  They're not fun to play against and Blizzard shouldnt  promote them.  (They also need to stop making resurrect cards for priest but that's another topic) Usually once I realize someone is just milling or setting up for some sort of combo I just quit.  Sure they get the win but I value my time more and I'm not going to waste it on some BS like Mill or combo/otk.   

So you play exclusively control fatigue decks with no win condition? Cause otherwise there's no reason to quit a game like that, any combo deck might be stuck with combo cards in their hand so you can punish them by playing aggresivly

I guess i have an unpopular opinion about mill decks :) - because the time they we're in standard (i only play standard) i realy liked them. Sure it can be frustrating to play against but so we're lots of other decks. 

I always kinda liked mill type decks but i guess i'm one of the few players who enjoyed playing them. 

The main problem is, that milling decks are uninteractive and unfun to play against. So no, do not ruin the game for many to satisfy a few.

BTW, without Vanish the Mill Rougue would be screwed, so it would not work in Standard anymore.

I was pretty disappointed when Coldlight Oracle got HOFed even though I don't think I've played a mill deck in HS ever. I think having alternate win conditions and counters to combo strategies (like overdrawing key combo pieces) is important to the game's overall health. For example, I don't think control warrior would've been as dominant over the past year if milling had been a viable strategy in standard.

The more viable strategies there are, the less likely it is a single strategy will become meta-game warping.

For practical purposes, mill is incredibly difficult to balance. In most CCGs, it's either trash or broken. That's probably why it's rarely implemented in standard anymore.

People who do not play an archetype or style are always going to be against it.  Which is why I despise Hunter decks...

With that being said, Milling your opponent takes a lot of patience and strategy.  If you let one minion go for a turn too long, it could cost you.  It's easier to disrupt than people give it credit.  Both in Wild and Standard, when I have played and played against Mill decks, they are a 50% deck at best because of 2 specific set ups:

1) Aggro will almost always dominate you,

2) If you miss part of your combo to continue your mill, you're screwed.

Anyone that says that it must be removed from Standard and/or Wild is because they don't know how to play around it.  Milling is basically a combo deck... and as it has always been known in MTG and other CCGs... Aggro>Combo>Control>Aggro.  There are always going to be the games where you just get crap draws and that is how the cookie crumbles, but ultimately if you're a control played... expect to get owned by combo decks. 

In order for mill to be anything other than negative for the game, there would need to be far more graveyard/burned interaction to offer a counter beyond 'do something your deck is explicitly designed not to do". That some people enjoy the playstyle and that the playstyle requires a skilled operator does not mitigate the potential downside for the meta.

It does not matter how much patience or skill is required to play a mill deck. Patience and skill are not the criteria for whether something should be allowed in the game. The fact that it exists in other games is also not a criterion.

Decks with milling as a win condition should be actively discouraged in Standard because Hearthstone lacks the mechanical infrastructure to allow a player to tech against it. Saying you should "learn to play around it" is a ridiculous oversimplification. For some archetypes, that is literally impossible.

If they print an evergreen neutral card that lets me move my "graveyard" into my deck, I might reconsider my position.

Quote From FortyDust

It does not matter how much patience or skill is required to play a mill deck. Patience and skill are not the criteria for whether something should be allowed in the game. The fact that it exists in other games is also not a criterion.

Decks with milling as a win condition should be actively discouraged in Standard because Hearthstone lacks the mechanical infrastructure to allow a player to tech against it. Saying you should "learn to play around it" is a ridiculous oversimplification. For some archetypes, that is literally impossible.

If they print an evergreen neutral card that lets me move my "graveyard" into my deck, I might reconsider my position.

Loads of decks can't beat OTK combos except by going face. Cards in hand are almost entirely untouchable in standard HS at the moment.

Why the hell should combo and control players feel safe in the know that THEIR win condition can't be disrupted by other players when every other wincon can be? I'm not averse to the idea of more interaction, but dear god let's not pretend that all the strategies already in the game have adequate tech counters. It's been years since my old pal Dirty Rat was in standard...

I realized something lately.. you know it doesn't matter which style of deck you play.. you play to win.. if a mechanic is "unfair" your deck should be as much unfair as theirs you are doing other kind of unfair things.. let's take freeze mage vs aggro for example..

freeze mage constantly freezes the board and have a burst OTK but aggro is also unfair cause they spam mana efficient minions which give you tonnes of tempo, which is also unfair.. when you play a specific playstyle you feel like some other playstyles are wrong.. and it's just not the right way to think about it..

The question is how polarized are the matchups that's really the annoying part.. and how hopeless it feels sometimes but in general being able to actually play a game which also feels when you play a tier 3 deck vs the meta decks.. but well that's how card game work.. if your deck doesn't do something unfair what are you even doing.

@aliradicali you mean [Hearthstone Card (coldlinght oracle) Not Found] not seer.

Quote From AliRadicali

It's been years since my old pal Dirty Rat was in standard...

This is - by itself - an excellent point/question. So obviously for the first time in HS history Blizz did buffs a while back, and they've clearly been HoFing basic/classic cards without much pause. Why don't they "buff" some good Wild counters by making them Classic and bringing them back into Standard permanently? It would give them more room to print "weird" cards/cards for strategies like Mill since the counter would already be there.

And to be crystal clear since I HATED that Halloween nonsense of bringing back all those OP cards and ruining the meta for a month: I mean very specifically cards like Dirty Rat, maybe Loatheb, etc. that are just good, all-purpose tech cards that have never really been adequately (and I use that word since I know there obviously have been some stabs at Dirty Rat 2: Dirtiest Boogaloo like Demonic Project & Hecklebot) reprinted.

I don't think it's something they should ever push with powerful cards but keeping it at memey/tier 4 level with the occasional card that can be used for it directly or indirectly is fine.  Unique archetypes are one of the things that make card games fun, even though i've never played mill myself I appreciate that some people like it.

I've been playing a TON of magic:arena for like four months now and i've honestly never lost a single game to a mill deck.  Even when i'm playing generally slow decks they still get beat down, i even beat one with one of the basic decks you start with which are terrible.  I don't understand how it actually wins any games in standard.  Closest i've been is like 6 cards left in deck lol.

I somehow managed to play two straight mill decks the other day in Wild, and it was unpleasant to say the least. I just conceded against the rogue one, there's very little point to playing those out unless you start fast with an aggro deck and can hope to outrace it, but I was able to get past the Druid one.

I understand them as a "strategy", I suppose, but I don't think supporting it any further is a good idea. Hearthstone does not allow any sort of interaction with or counter to the mill strategy, minus a couple of RNG shots with a Gnomeferatu or something. As someone else mentioned, graveyard interaction can help to balance it in Magic, in that a milled card is not necessarily gone forever, and of course there are many more cards to mill.

Quote From Echo

If we go by milling in terms of hearthstone, that was just making the opponent overdraw, I think that would be fair since most ways to print cards in this vein are just cards that'd draw both cards, which is something many decks would want it would still most likely decimate control decks, but I think that creates more of a challenge in making a control deck that is able to pressure someone down instead of durdling until late game to slam a bunch of stats in play.

I think it's safe to say that when someone talks about "mill decks" or "mill as a strategy," they are talking about killing the opponent by running them out of cards -- milling as a win condition.

Forcing the occasional overdraw has never been controversial as far as I know.

Quote From Echo

If we go by milling in terms of hearthstone, that was just making the opponent overdraw, I think that would be fair since most ways to print cards in this vein are just cards that'd draw both cards, which is something many decks would want it would still most likely decimate control decks, but I think that creates more of a challenge in making a control deck that is able to pressure someone down instead of durdling until late game to slam a bunch of stats in play.

By this do you mean a control deck that is a midrange deck? If your control decks strategy is to play a lot of high value minions on curve throughout the game then it is no longer a control deck. 

Hell no.  Mill needs to stay fringe, because I want to punch someone when all my cards get milled.  You see it coming but sometimes you still can’t do anything

From reading the comments against mill here, I feel like the real problem here is the lack of responses to it. If an archetype has almost no counterplays,it’ll be unfun, regardless of the skill involved. Which is a shame, since I myself like mill a lot. It’s a nice, original strategy that is underrepresented in HS IMO.

I guess my opinion is that mill should definitely have more support, but should also have more direct counters to it (like a card that returns burned cards to your deck, as mentioned here)

Wow some absolutely great answers there guys. I've been away so haven't had a chance to reply.

I think doublesummon makes a great point about what's deemed as unfair and to be honest that's what brought me to this question.

Aliradicali also posted something I was thinking about when posting this question. 

Milling the opponent is a valid counter to some strategies and without it there is no threat to players who hold lots of cards. I've been playing an elemental mage recently with that project card and although it's not a mill deck that card sometimes wins the game for me because its countering my opponents strategy. 

But why should only few classes be able to do this. Yes rogue is a problem with bounces and is probably what sways the developers to not have neutral multi card draw. But whether  you love or hate it. It is surely missing imo

Btw just want to say how great this community is. Very diverse and sensible answers.

Cheers guys for making my journeys more I interesting 

I was referring to only milling your opponent and whilst unfun to play against I also think it's fair as it has its counters. I mean what's people's strategy to control and combo at the mo. The typical answer would be to rush them down. Can anyone suggest some more counters besides this and milling

Quote From Togwaggle

I was referring to only milling your opponent and whilst unfun to play against I also think it's fair as it has its counters. I mean what's people's strategy to control and combo at the mo. The typical answer would be to rush them down. Can anyone suggest some more counters besides this and milling

You'll often lose against combo decks but a full on value deck will beat control. Burgle rogue should rarely lose to a true control deck for example. In fact, with Togwaggle's Scheme and/or Academic Espionage it is a reasonable counter to mill decks too.

Yes I thought this when they made all those give opponent blah blah cards and then octosari. It's like it's there but not fleshed out maybe

I agree that mill deserves to have a spot in standard like every other type of deck in HS, and to people saying that won't happen because combo is a thing and blizzard hates mill, blizzard hates combo decks too... Mill completely gets shit on by aggro so much where it's basically suicide to run it against and aggro heavy meta, which as far as the games i've been playing in HS for over a year now, we are always in one. Yes playing more than one card before high mana turns is a struggle for some greedier decks but it's not impossible to play around mill, people did it all the time before coldlight rotated and people do it all the time in wild with coldlight and naturalize now. The only problem i see with mill in standard is the too much of a good thing type situation, which always plagues wild. It's why high value expansions like DoD are pretty lackluster yet game changing in standard but break the game bit by bit in wild, and that it's adding tools for existing decks. Adding more mill cards would push mill over the top in wild, but wild has a lot of really good aggro cards that are cheap which might counter it really easily we don't really know, but the thing is it'll be hard to balance wild around.

And to people complaining that it "Ruins the game because Muh deck" shut up. There's plenty of ways to go infinite in wild and plenty of ways to put more value into your deck in standard right now. A reason like that is just shitty. As for it countering combo decks, by getting rid of value cards in the matchup, i say good. It's a good thing to punish a greedy hand hoarding control player, just like it's a good thing to punish a greedy board focus aggro player. I say let it grow.

I think the occasional mill is a fun way to frustrate the opponent but a consistent OTK deck based on that would be a little annoying. But lots of decks are annoying, say aggro, face huntard or OTK paladin? Basically any deck that more or less can ignore you and kill you is annoying.

But the way card games work is that sometimes you or your opponent can get lucky, draw that combo, highroll the nuts and suddenly its game over. When this happens now and then and is not predictable it is fine, but when it is consistent and you know it is coming (like with a OTK deck like paladin) then it can be very frustrating if you have no tech for it ready.

I really hate the mill strategy but every time I see someone playing a combo deck I am very grateful that it exists