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Really I think Control Warlock is just a couple cards away from being playable, but without those cards its just awful. I miss Defile so much.
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Quote From YJHS2000 Really I think Control Warlock is just a couple cards away from being playable, but without those cards its just awful. I miss Defile so much.
I don't want to stomp all over your post, but there are probably a lot of people who disagree with your nostalgia for Defile. You're right, though, Warlock has been cut down to pretty much nothing and it isn't very nice. The best you can do is hope for a brighter Warlock future. I also enjoy using the Warlock class. Having played the game enough, I have also learned that it doesn't hurt to try out some of the other classes because eventually, the rotation comes, and it stomps all over your favorite deck. I do indeed recall how playing that Defile card destroyed any hope of the opponent winning the match, especially when I could cheat out some Void Lords after that, or maybe slap out a Hellfire and then some Void Lords. And then let them kill my Void Lords and other things with the Demon tag and subsequently slap out the Death Knight card and resummon all the Void Lords. Etc. It was good fun for me when I got the nuts
There's always Wild, though. According to what I've seen, Control Warlock is chugging away quite nicely on the Wild side. Also, over there, Gul'dan has access to all kinds of broken cards to create a horrendously intimidating and defiling control deck that can wipe the board on every turn with the right draw.
Oops. Anyone know how I edit the thread title here?
Please don't. It made me smile :)
I agree, the problem with cards like defile is that it is so useful that no other cheap AOE spells get printed for warlock in year of the raven, so now that year of the mammoth is gone, control warlock is lacking in early game removal.
Yeah, I really miss that spell. Controlling the early- and mid-game is what we need right now. If it wasn't for Bomb Warrior, I am confident, that we wouldn't have needed that much healing either. Lord Jaraxxus would have dealt with most of the slow decks out there.
Well, tbh warlock has been in a worse shape before (Un'goro). At least now we have a lot of playable cards, but we just lack the support for them.
Warlock has been popular in most of the metas so far, and it’s in a better place now than it was in Un’Goro. It can take a backseat this expansion.
Also, I do not miss Defile, it was too efficient
Quote From thepowrofcheese Also, I do not miss Defile, it was too efficient
Imho Defile's design was good, but the cost was just too cheap.
I want my cubelock back.
I also agree Defile was too efficient. Such efficieny should require further synergy.
Conversely, I'd love a scalable board clear bound to card draw:
"Dark Scheme" (2) deal 1 damage to all the minions for each card drawn during this turn.
It deals 1 damage on its own, 2 damage with HP, ... huge damage with Plot Twist.
Zoo is still OK on ladder so I don't see this as an immediate problem. There are certainly classes that are less playable at the moment. For next expansion? Sure I wouldn't mind seeing more than one class have a viable control deck and I've always been a fan of control WL.
Maybe with the next round of unannounced HoFs blizzard will take away Warrior's Shield Slam and Brawl so that it can sit in a corner and cry for a lack of good cards for a change. I'm only being slightly sarcastic.
At least you still have Hellfire and Twisting Nether as effective board clears. Control Priest is probably in a worse position.
Quote From drfelip At least you still have Hellfire and Twisting Nether as effective board clears. Control Priest is probably in a worse position.
I've really really tried. There's too much swarm right now. By the time I get to turn 4, if I even managed to draw Hellfire, the self damage is a liability and the opponent can refill the board in a turn or two. Forget surviving to turn 8 for a Twisting Nether. I've tried using Shriek, which is only good if I have the Coin, because otherwise it discard one of my other clears or early taunts. I've tried using cheap taunts to stave of early swarms, tried adding more healing... Warlock just does not have the tools to survive against even bad-draw aggro anymore.
And zoolock is definitely better than control warlock, but there's a reason it's a 1% meta deck---its slower than hunter, mage and druid, and does not have the staying power to survive warrior.
Have you tried adding Wild Pyromancer? Warlock does not have a lot of good 0- or 1-cost spells, but Mortal Coil is definitely one of them in a Token-heavy meta.
Quote From YJHS2000 Quote From drfelip At least you still have Hellfire and Twisting Nether as effective board clears. Control Priest is probably in a worse position.
I've really really tried. There's too much swarm right now. By the time I get to turn 4, if I even managed to draw Hellfire, the self damage is a liability and the opponent can refill the board in a turn or two. Forget surviving to turn 8 for a Twisting Nether. I've tried using Shriek, which is only good if I have the Coin, because otherwise it discard one of my other clears or early taunts. I've tried using cheap taunts to stave of early swarms, tried adding more healing... Warlock just does not have the tools to survive against even bad-draw aggro anymore.
And zoolock is definitely better than control warlock, but there's a reason it's a 1% meta deck---its slower than hunter, mage and druid, and does not have the staying power to survive warrior.
I think the more immediate problem is that there is no payoff for reaching late game with WL. Any other deck that's trying to survive the early game will at some point start doing crazy things back, be it conjuring up giants, enormous pogo hoppers, infinite Togwaggle treasures, Chef Nomi, OTK Holy Wrath, Jepetto, Swampqueen hagatha, etc. etc. etc.
Even if WL had all the tools it wanted for board control, and I'd argue that it has a fair amount (Godfrey still exists, after all), there's no point in playing those cards because you still inevitably lose, even if you can stall for a while. For the last few sets WL has gotten a mishmash of weird themes like hand buffs and discard and demons and deck-manipulation, none of which provide a viable late game path or work together particularly well.
Control (or combo) WL need some sort of "fuck you I win" card or combo in order to be viable.
Quote From AliRadicali
I think the more immediate problem is that there is no payoff for reaching late game with WL. Any other deck that's trying to survive the early game will at some point start doing crazy things back, be it conjuring up giants, enormous pogo hoppers, infinite Togwaggle treasures, Chef Nomi, OTK Holy Wrath, Jepetto, Swampqueen hagatha, etc. etc. etc.
Even if WL had all the tools it wanted for board control, and I'd argue that it has a fair amount (Godfrey still exists, after all), there's no point in playing those cards because you still inevitably lose, even if you can stall for a while. For the last few sets WL has gotten a mishmash of weird themes like hand buffs and discard and demons and deck-manipulation, none of which provide a viable late game path or work together particularly well.
Control (or combo) WL need some sort of "fuck you I win" card or combo in order to be viable.
Well, we do have Lord Jaraxxus and I remember how good he was pre-Ungoro. So imho warlock still has a win-condition, even though it is fairer than what others can do. I don't mind playing him and I even did in the early days of the expansion. The problem I constantly faced were warriors and their dumb Omega Devastators and freeze mages with their burn. I haven't played control warlock after the nerfs to rogue, so I can't say if it would have handled some popular aggro decks like mech hunter or murloc shaman. But from the other win-conditions you have mentioned, Pogo and Holy W would have definitely killed us, sooo you have a point there.
[edit] Mecha'thun as a win-condition is still possible on theory, because we still have Galvanizers and Grim Rally. If warlock gets more sustainability, maybe this archtype would pop up again.
I think power creep largely killed jaraxxus. I hadn't even considered him because I haven't seen one around in *ages*. There's just too many decks that can kill you from 15 hp.
I really wouldn't mind if he was reworked to be more in line with a regular hero card because I really like mistah J, but boy does it feel bad to have you max health capped at 15. If he worked more like Alexstrasza , where you could heal back up to 30 afterwards and retained your armour, he'd be a lot better in 2019 Hearthstone.
Quote From AliRadicali I really wouldn't mind if he was reworked to be more in line with a regular hero card because I really like mistah J, but boy does it feel bad to have you max health capped at 15. If he worked more like Alexstrasza , where you could heal back up to 30 afterwards and retained your armour, he'd be a lot better in 2019 Hearthstone.
True. Btw I have slightly edited my previous post, so sorry if you didn't see it.
Quote From AliRadicali I think power creep largely killed jaraxxus. I hadn't even considered him because I haven't seen one around in *ages*. There's just too many decks that can kill you from 15 hp.
I really wouldn't mind if he was reworked to be more in line with a regular hero card because I really like mistah J, but boy does it feel bad to have you max health capped at 15. If he worked more like Alexstrasza , where you could heal back up to 30 afterwards and retained your armour, he'd be a lot better in 2019 Hearthstone.
It would definitely be good, if you could heal to 30 once you transform to Lord Jaraxxus, but it just wouldnt make sense flavor wise, nor mechanic wise. Also, they just reaaaaaaaaaaaaaally dont want to touch anything about him, they said so many times, so yeah :/
Quote From AliRadicali I think power creep largely killed jaraxxus. I hadn't even considered him because I haven't seen one around in *ages*. There's just too many decks that can kill you from 15 hp.
I really wouldn't mind if he was reworked to be more in line with a regular hero card because I really like mistah J, but boy does it feel bad to have you max health capped at 15. If he worked more like Alexstrasza , where you could heal back up to 30 afterwards and retained your armour, he'd be a lot better in 2019 Hearthstone.
One big reason why you can't: classic. Hero cards were acceptable because they were going out in a few years. We can live with Dr. Boom for one more year, but after that we'll be done with him.
Jaraxxus isn't leaving if he gets buffed. A buffed Jaraxxus in an expansion would be cool. A reliable Jaraxxus in Classic is a No No and would get HoFed anyway.
Simply put: if it's in the HoF, it's either going to be weaker than a typical expansion card or be HoFed and replaced with something VERY much weaker.
Quote From Dakarian Quote From AliRadicali I think power creep largely killed jaraxxus. I hadn't even considered him because I haven't seen one around in *ages*. There's just too many decks that can kill you from 15 hp.
I really wouldn't mind if he was reworked to be more in line with a regular hero card because I really like mistah J, but boy does it feel bad to have you max health capped at 15. If he worked more like Alexstrasza , where you could heal back up to 30 afterwards and retained your armour, he'd be a lot better in 2019 Hearthstone.
One big reason why you can't: classic. Hero cards were acceptable because they were going out in a few years. We can live with Dr. Boom for one more year, but after that we'll be done with him.
Jaraxxus isn't leaving if he gets buffed. A buffed Jaraxxus in an expansion would be cool. A reliable Jaraxxus in Classic is a No No and would get HoFed anyway.
Simply put: if it's in the HoF, it's either going to be weaker than a typical expansion card or be HoFed and replaced with something VERY much weaker.
As far as I'm concerned an evergreen set with actual good cards in it is unsustainable anyway. I'd rather they bite the bullet and introduce a rotating base set than continue to HoF and nerf classic and basic into oblivion. What good is Jaraxxus if he can't ever be played?
No need to overthink it. Historically, non-zoo warlocks have been unplayable whenever there is not enough good healing options available in rotation (the last time this happened was Un'Goro). Zilliax is not enough and the other healing cards are too weak. Face damage is inevitable because the point is to tap yourself down. This weakness is compounded by the amount of burn-based decks in the meta right now such as bomb hunter and bomb warrior
Lack of healing and presence of burst is also what's making Jaraxxus bad. 15 health is 3 bombs. Or 2 bombs and a few weapon swings. Or 1 bomb and not keeping the board completely clear at all times.
Still, warlock isn't lacking in threats. At minimum, warlocks will always have mountain giant, twilight drake and the occasional ancient watcher package. It's not as OP as mage highrolls right now, but the hero power would ensure a more consistent steam of threats and board refills after answers
The board clear situation is 3.6 roentgen, not great but not terrible either. Defile spoiled us. We shouldn't compare our board clears with one of the best clears ever printed. Lord Godfrey still exists. Shriek and Hellfire are pretty bad right now because, again, there is no good healing in rotation (Hellfire deals 3 to face and Shriek is something like "1 mana, deal 2 to minions and your face", since it "costs" a tap)
Coming from somebody who has played since vanilla HS and who uses quite a few warlock decks in wild (with the busted cards we have there) I can't really say I feel bad. Warlock has had such an overwhelming presence in top tier meta status when you take all previous metas in mind that I'm perfectly fine with the class taking a back burner in the standard format. It's about time the class feels what it is like to not have 'god-cards' like Defile, Gul'Dan, Godfrey, or even the old Voidcaller / Mal'Ganis vomitted into their laps.
What about priest? Look how they massacred my boi.
Yeah I tried to play handlock when the expansion came out.. it's just.. too much of a fair deck.
Well i personaly wouldn't say Bad .... but i wouldn't say good either :)
Control Lock is pretty weak right now but Zoo is still doing ok - not the best but decent enough for the ladder!
There are always going to be one or two classes in the gutter every standard year. Warrior and Shaman were one-trick ponies for most of last year. It's Priest's and Warlock's turn to be boring this time around.
Priest is far from boring at the moment. I've played Nomi, Star Aligner, Clone and Clone/Buff Priest in recent weeks. They're not top-tier, but not terrible either.
I think having fun with Warlock is a lot harder in Standard at the moment. There is always Zoo of course, but that's not terribly exciting. Plot Twist was an interesting idea, but a lot of work for too little pay-off. I've been playing Demon Handbuff recently and got a few wins vs Warrior (might have been lucky they either didn't run Brawl or didn't draw it), but buffed minions that can't attack immediately are just too inflexible vs rush and magnetize.
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