Aww, I was really hoping for a December 8th release and reveals this weekend, but the evidence for December 15th is very strong. Despite the changes in the last patch I'm still kind of bored with LoR right now, so I was hoping that the next expansion could come soon and add some cool strategies, such as a mono-Targon Celestials deck with Zoe, some kind of damaging or Blade Tokens archetype with Riven, and a cool PnZ focused deck with Viktor. I'm looking forward to PnZ in particular because they haven't really gotten any new archetypes since launch (Vi hasn't really created any decks other than meme ones trying to give her Overwhelm). Also, if Zoe has discard synergy I'll be really happy because then a PnZ/Targon gems discard deck could be a real thing. I have pretty much no idea what Riven will do, but her cards seem to be able noncombat damage to allies and enemies, so maybe she'll work with Vladimir or Swain (her working with Vladimir could also explain him getting so few buffs).
I’m glad that this post has a much calmer and more positive tone to it, but we have to accept the reality that Blizzard has messed up. The new rewards track, while a step in the right direction, is a complete disaster. It is an unrewarding, slow and grindy mess. My biggest problem is Blizzard’s complete and utter lack of communication about the issue, I have no idea what their plan is or if they even intend to address the player outrage. I mean, just look at Naga Sea Witch for a good example of Blizzard’s modus operandi when it comes to things we don’t like. I am just so fed up and completely disappointed in this system, and their lack of transparency and even outright lying to our faces just adds fuel to this
They did respond though? Didn't you see this?
We're supposed to give C'thanks for the battlepass, just like in the "apology letter" we didn't understand how the rewards system REALLY worked.
I’m glad that this post has a much calmer and more positive tone to it, but we have to accept the reality that Blizzard has messed up. The new rewards track, while a step in the right direction, is a complete disaster. It is an unrewarding, slow and grindy mess. My biggest problem is Blizzard’s complete and utter lack of communication about the issue, I have no idea what their plan is or if they even intend to address the player outrage. I mean, just look at Naga Sea Witch for a good example of Blizzard’s modus operandi when it comes to things we don’t like. I am just so fed up and completely disappointed in this system, and their lack of transparency and even outright lying to our faces just adds fuel to this
The token DH is fun. Cult master can have it drawing though the entire deck. I even dropped a 14/13 Blood Herald (buffed by a wriggling horror or something). Inconsistent, though.
That Level 58 determination assumes you're only doing 75% of your daily and weekly quests (as noted in the table breakdown). He's quite clear in the Q&A section that doing all of your quests gets you a lot more ("The 5400g example is someone who doesn't do all their Quests, and doesn't reroll. Someone who *does* reroll for max gold, and does all their quests/achievements, will get much more than that.")
Now, I'm sure there are players out there who aren't doing every daily and weekly quest, but I suspect anyone engaged enough to join this discussion (and probably anyone engaged enough to be mad about this system) is doing every daily and weekly quest.
So, I just lost an hour worth of a post here.... but tl;dr of that post: we need clarity. The improvements in rewarding players are negligible unless events fix that issue and we don't know what those events will give us. Therefore, sending most of the gold gains for the back end of the expansion cycle ends up feeling extra bad. Also, like @AngryShuckie said, show us the XP bar growing after each game. Again, for clarity.
I like watching Trump, but he kind of missed out on the calculations though. I didn't see the whole thing, but he was implying we'd get to level 50 on around day 90. However, according to Chadd Nervig's post here, that means we'd need 30 days to get the extra 8 levels Chadd Nervig calculated (he said a player with 1hour/day average playtime would reach around level 58).
Quote From AngryShuckieNow, what Blizz should do is just show the XP being added after each game, so you can see what it has earned you.
This exemplifies one of the core issues that lead to the backlash from the new system: there is a huge lack of transparency in it.
We have no idea if there are plans to make events XP based instead of gold/packs based. We have no idea how many of those events will there be on an expansion cycle. The only idea that we have right now is this:
Show Spoiler
So I wanted to share a distilled summary of a couple hypothetical situations, to help that discussion out. Here are a couple hypothetical players, and the rewards they'd get from the new system, with current tuning numbers (which could still change before anyone gets there).
Added clarification: These numbers are WITHOUT the Tavern Pass. All of that is from the Free Reward Track.
Let's pick up the 5hr/day example: in the old system, a player with that playtime and a 57% winrate (which can be a fairly assessed winrate, considering experience factors in on a players ability to improve in the game). Let's also add up the fact that the average game that player has is 8 minutes (which is a fair game lenght overall, as most aggro decks tend to be faster than 8 min and most control games tend to be slower). Now, I'll put it my calculations on a spoiler so as to not clutter the post so much. I'll also put in a small speculative estimate regarding events.
Show Spoiler
Assuming the player rerolled all quest in the old system to be on average, 60g quests:
60g x 120 days =7200g
5hr/day games / 8min = 37,5 games (let's round down to 37 games per day)
37 games x 57% winrate = 21,09 wins (21 wins)
21 wins x 10g / 3 wins = 70g from the bonus gold per day
70g x 120 days = 8400g
Total gold per expansion = 7200g + 8400g = 15600g
A couple of thing in my calculations: a 57% winrate is a very good winrate, but even in a 50% winrate scenario, that player would get around 14400g mark. So, a player with a 50% winrate would benefit fron the new system, as 2 tavern tickets, 1 legendary, 1 epic and around 3 extra packs is better than 200g, but I would argue that, if you compare it to a more likely scenario of a 57% winrate for a player with that time consumption (I myself have around 55% winrate with an average 1hr/day spent in the last 3 months according to HSReplay, and I'm far for being that above average as a player), those extra rewards become very negligible when compared to the old system (despite those rewards being arguably slightly better than 1400g). So, we're left with the impact that events will have on the expansion.
In the old system, all events combined would leave you with the equivalent of about 1200g-1500g (I'll use the lower number, even though I don't know what the real number would look like, I expect it to be in that range). In the new system,
1200g / 150g/level = 8 levels
8 levels x 4500XP/level = 36000 XP
The events throughout the expansion cycle should give you more than that XP in total to be rewarding.
And here's the issue with the calculations that I made (and my biggest argument regarding the system itself): they're mostly speculative. The normal rewards you get by playing the game are only arguably better instead of definitely better and even then, the speculation I made especially on the event front leaves a lot of question marks regarding how good and transparent the system actually is.Showing XP gained after each game, like you suggested, is a way to give more transparency (as well as giving a slight sense of accomplishment; in the old system, we would see the crown light up after every win counting towards the 10g). Blizzard can't expect to give us extra rewards that end up being negligible in the grand scheme of rewards per expansion cycle without telling us something along the likes of this:
We expect players who put X hours into the game to reach level Y if you factor in all events we have planned to have through the expansion cycle, allowing players to get an overall extra average of Z gold. What are those events, though? Just wait and see, we hope you guys like it *smiley face emoji* *fist bump emoji* *extra emoji to show anticipation or something*
Yeah, I know, the last part would be just random promotion associated with the announcement. But there has to be transparency. Otherwise, this system will just look like the old one, except most gold will only come out later in the expansion insteat of right now.
I usually keep my duplicates around unless I'm out of dust, in case they get nerfed or rotated to the hall of fame. I think I have 7 Panthara in my collection, but that seemed like overkill.
As I wrote in the guide, the list is far from refined, so you can just substitute additional copies of some of the other cards in the deck and test what works best.
I think the core of the problem is the same as it has always been: the high crafting costs for epic and legendaries. The first ~50 packs you open of an expansion are great value, but once you have all the commons and rares, you're mostly getting dust from packs and you need a lot of dust to be able to craft one legendary. The duplicate protection does help, that was a great move. However, I don't think it's enough to fix the issue.
Preorders are about $1 per pack (regular price is much worse) and packs contain about 100 dust, so if you want to craft a 10k dust deck (not uncommon for control decks), that's a $100 deck. Of course you don't need to craft every single card; some you will have pulled from packs. But even if you're only missing 2 legendaries and 4 epics, that's almost $50 worth of dust. I think that's a lot of money when I can get full indie games for $10 to $20, or even AAA games from a few years ago.
I'm not sure yet whether the progression track is better or worse than the old system for me, since I never used to grind for 10 gold per 3 wins anyway. I complete almost all my quests and then occasionally play more when I'm fine-tuning a deck. But I think it is safe to say that, apart from the first few levels, the new system is not significantly better than the old system.
I think a lot of people were tolerating the old system because they had gotten used to it, not because they actually liked it. So even if the new system is roughly equal in terms of rewards (as Blizzard claims), it's still not going to give them a good impression.
Wrong lol. We want gold instead of those. Literally most people who complain about the new system DON'T WANT old packs instead of gold. 100 gold is always a pack, but a pack value is not always a 100 gold.
The free legendary and 3 packs are also bonuses in new expansions that you used to get on expansion launch, so lol@ adding it to the pass as if it's a new thing to trick naive users like you.
Tavern tickets also aren't something everybody wants. Events always used to be a thing, they keep going downhill if anything. From double gold at it's best and gold dust to I don't even remember what the last event did, that useless arena thing?
If the new system is better than it should award more base gold than the old system. You can literally play 30 mins in 2 days only doing quests and getting 100 gold guaranteed. Now and especially in the later levels you aren't guaranteed anything, and the weekly quests are very time consuming.
I will reply to a few points below, but first and foremost, can you please use a more respectful tone when making your arguments? You are not going to convince anyone of anything if you start calling them naive and use absolutes like only your opinion is valid. The best discussions often arise through disagreement, but they only work if both sides respect each other.
—————————
Anyway, regarding Tavern Tickets: at absolute worst these amount to a pack of the most recent expansion plus a small amount of dust or gold. And that's what you'll get it you commit 5 minutes to building a deck and just conceding 3 games. If you actually try, you can get a decent amount of extra gold / dust. Now, I'm not saying Arena /Heroic Duels rewards are perfect (I mean, who wants those non-golden commons… seriously?), but the rewards are absolutely what players want, even if they wouldn't normally spend 150 gold on the game modes involved.
You are also portraying XP like it is worthless unless it pushes you over a level there and then, which is nonsense. Rewards in the progression track are more spaced out than the old trickle of gold, but the XP that gets you half way through a level is just as important as the XP that gets you over the level threshold. There is a clear psychological effect with many players where accumulating, say, 200 gold over time feels better than waiting to get it in 1 lump, but unless you are using that gold as you collect it there isn't an actual difference there. Now, what Blizz should do is just show the XP being added after each game, so you can see what it has earned you.
Finally, are weekly quests really that time consuming? Because they are often restricted to specific game modes it is fair to say different players will take longer on different ones, but let's use the default "Get 7 wins in ranked" quest as an example. Assuming 50% win rate, that's 14 games, or 2 a day. That's less than the daily quests ask for, so no, they are not really time consuming once you recognise they are spread across the week.
Experience IS worthless unless it pushes you over the level limit though since the level limit is what gives you rewards. Experience for the sake of experience is nothing. And when you get past the level 15 mark is it increasingly hard to raise your level and get those rewards and those rewards are poor. This is what people are talking about. Welcome to the conversation.
Wrong lol. We want gold instead of those. Literally most people who complain about the new system DON'T WANT old packs instead of gold. 100 gold is always a pack, but a pack value is not always a 100 gold.
The free legendary and 3 packs are also bonuses in new expansions that you used to get on expansion launch, so lol@ adding it to the pass as if it's a new thing to trick naive users like you.
Tavern tickets also aren't something everybody wants. Events always used to be a thing, they keep going downhill if anything. From double gold at it's best and gold dust to I don't even remember what the last event did, that useless arena thing?
If the new system is better than it should award more base gold than the old system. You can literally play 30 mins in 2 days only doing quests and getting 100 gold guaranteed. Now and especially in the later levels you aren't guaranteed anything, and the weekly quests are very time consuming.
I will reply to a few points below, but first and foremost, can you please use a more respectful tone when making your arguments? You are not going to convince anyone of anything if you start calling them naive and use absolutes like only your opinion is valid. The best discussions often arise through disagreement, but they only work if both sides respect each other.
---------------------------
Anyway, regarding Tavern Tickets: at absolute worst these amount to a pack of the most recent expansion plus a small amount of dust or gold. And that's what you'll get it you commit 5 minutes to building a deck and just conceding 3 games. If you actually try, you can get a decent amount of extra gold / dust. Now, I'm not saying Arena /Heroic Duels rewards are perfect (I mean, who wants those non-golden commons... seriously?), but the rewards are absolutely what players want, even if they wouldn't normally spend 150 gold on the game modes involved.
You are also portraying XP like it is worthless unless it pushes you over a level there and then, which is nonsense. Rewards in the progression track are more spaced out than the old trickle of gold, but the XP that gets you half way through a level is just as important as the XP that gets you over the level threshold. There is a clear psychological effect with many players where accumulating, say, 200 gold over time feels better than waiting to get it in 1 lump, but unless you are using that gold as you collect it there isn't an actual difference there. Now, what Blizz should do is just show the XP being added after each game, so you can see what it has earned you.
Finally, are weekly quests really that time consuming? Because they are often restricted to specific game modes it is fair to say different players will take longer on different ones, but let's use the default "Get 7 wins in ranked" quest as an example. Assuming 50% win rate, that's 14 games, or 2 a day. That's less than the daily quests ask for, so no, they are not really time consuming once you recognise they are spread across the week.
in my case I went to my rewards track and I had something like 7000/3000 next to my level and I had to play one game for that exp to get added to my total xp and for the game to calculate my level
Did Riot Just Hint at the Release Date for the Next Runeterra Expansion?
Nice ;)
Did Riot Just Hint at the Release Date for the Next Runeterra Expansion?
So you are telling me Riot makes decisions that make sense?
Great date deduction BTW. Quite excited for the completion of CotM set with the remaining 3 Champs.
Did Riot Just Hint at the Release Date for the Next Runeterra Expansion?
Aww, I was really hoping for a December 8th release and reveals this weekend, but the evidence for December 15th is very strong. Despite the changes in the last patch I'm still kind of bored with LoR right now, so I was hoping that the next expansion could come soon and add some cool strategies, such as a mono-Targon Celestials deck with Zoe, some kind of damaging or Blade Tokens archetype with Riven, and a cool PnZ focused deck with Viktor. I'm looking forward to PnZ in particular because they haven't really gotten any new archetypes since launch (Vi hasn't really created any decks other than meme ones trying to give her Overwhelm). Also, if Zoe has discard synergy I'll be really happy because then a PnZ/Targon gems discard deck could be a real thing. I have pretty much no idea what Riven will do, but her cards seem to be able noncombat damage to allies and enemies, so maybe she'll work with Vladimir or Swain (her working with Vladimir could also explain him getting so few buffs).
Compensation Has Gone Out For Hearthstone Players With Bugged Weekly Quests
You should realise you are talking to people who likely pay up to 240$ a year for this game. They are not the greedy ones here.
Half and Half
Thanks for this - used it to win first game.
Opponent greeted me, I greeted back, and then they threatened me. After squelching them, I proceeded to wreck them. Felt good!
Hot take - Blizzard is actually not that bad
They did respond though? Didn't you see this?
We're supposed to give C'thanks for the battlepass, just like in the "apology letter" we didn't understand how the rewards system REALLY worked.
Hot take - Blizzard is actually not that bad
I’m glad that this post has a much calmer and more positive tone to it, but we have to accept the reality that Blizzard has messed up. The new rewards track, while a step in the right direction, is a complete disaster. It is an unrewarding, slow and grindy mess. My biggest problem is Blizzard’s complete and utter lack of communication about the issue, I have no idea what their plan is or if they even intend to address the player outrage. I mean, just look at Naga Sea Witch for a good example of Blizzard’s modus operandi when it comes to things we don’t like. I am just so fed up and completely disappointed in this system, and their lack of transparency and even outright lying to our faces just adds fuel to this
Going Against Hearthstone's Meta - Off-Meta Standard Decks for Fun and Glory
The token DH is fun. Cult master can have it drawing though the entire deck. I even dropped a 14/13 Blood Herald (buffed by a wriggling horror or something). Inconsistent, though.
Compensation Has Gone Out For Hearthstone Players With Bugged Weekly Quests
How much extra do you feel you deserve over everyone else for a minor inconvenience? Christ, you people are greedy.
Hot take - Blizzard is actually not that bad
That Level 58 determination assumes you're only doing 75% of your daily and weekly quests (as noted in the table breakdown). He's quite clear in the Q&A section that doing all of your quests gets you a lot more ("The 5400g example is someone who doesn't do all their Quests, and doesn't reroll. Someone who *does* reroll for max gold, and does all their quests/achievements, will get much more than that.")
Now, I'm sure there are players out there who aren't doing every daily and weekly quest, but I suspect anyone engaged enough to join this discussion (and probably anyone engaged enough to be mad about this system) is doing every daily and weekly quest.
Hot take - Blizzard is actually not that bad
So, I just lost an hour worth of a post here.... but tl;dr of that post: we need clarity. The improvements in rewarding players are negligible unless events fix that issue and we don't know what those events will give us. Therefore, sending most of the gold gains for the back end of the expansion cycle ends up feeling extra bad. Also, like @AngryShuckie said, show us the XP bar growing after each game. Again, for clarity.
I like watching Trump, but he kind of missed out on the calculations though. I didn't see the whole thing, but he was implying we'd get to level 50 on around day 90. However, according to Chadd Nervig's post here, that means we'd need 30 days to get the extra 8 levels Chadd Nervig calculated (he said a player with 1hour/day average playtime would reach around level 58).
Hot take - Blizzard is actually not that bad
This exemplifies one of the core issues that lead to the backlash from the new system: there is a huge lack of transparency in it.
We have no idea if there are plans to make events XP based instead of gold/packs based. We have no idea how many of those events will there be on an expansion cycle. The only idea that we have right now is this:
A couple of thing in my calculations: a 57% winrate is a very good winrate, but even in a 50% winrate scenario, that player would get around 14400g mark. So, a player with a 50% winrate would benefit fron the new system, as 2 tavern tickets, 1 legendary, 1 epic and around 3 extra packs is better than 200g, but I would argue that, if you compare it to a more likely scenario of a 57% winrate for a player with that time consumption (I myself have around 55% winrate with an average 1hr/day spent in the last 3 months according to HSReplay, and I'm far for being that above average as a player), those extra rewards become very negligible when compared to the old system (despite those rewards being arguably slightly better than 1400g). So, we're left with the impact that events will have on the expansion.
In the old system, all events combined would leave you with the equivalent of about 1200g-1500g (I'll use the lower number, even though I don't know what the real number would look like, I expect it to be in that range). In the new system,
The events throughout the expansion cycle should give you more than that XP in total to be rewarding.
Compensation Has Gone Out For Hearthstone Players With Bugged Weekly Quests
What are you talking about? That's worth 18 gold!!!!! GOLD!!!!!!!!
You could almost get a common you already have 2 of for that! Or 12% of an arena run!
In this new era of fantastic rewards that's pretty generous!
Illidan the Inspired
I didn't know that.
I usually keep my duplicates around unless I'm out of dust, in case they get nerfed or rotated to the hall of fame. I think I have 7 Panthara in my collection, but that seemed like overkill.
As I wrote in the guide, the list is far from refined, so you can just substitute additional copies of some of the other cards in the deck and test what works best.
Half and Half
I also saw no progress in my daily quests during the brawl (despite playing cards that would have worked toward the objective).
Hot take - Blizzard is actually not that bad
I think the core of the problem is the same as it has always been: the high crafting costs for epic and legendaries. The first ~50 packs you open of an expansion are great value, but once you have all the commons and rares, you're mostly getting dust from packs and you need a lot of dust to be able to craft one legendary. The duplicate protection does help, that was a great move. However, I don't think it's enough to fix the issue.
Preorders are about $1 per pack (regular price is much worse) and packs contain about 100 dust, so if you want to craft a 10k dust deck (not uncommon for control decks), that's a $100 deck. Of course you don't need to craft every single card; some you will have pulled from packs. But even if you're only missing 2 legendaries and 4 epics, that's almost $50 worth of dust. I think that's a lot of money when I can get full indie games for $10 to $20, or even AAA games from a few years ago.
I'm not sure yet whether the progression track is better or worse than the old system for me, since I never used to grind for 10 gold per 3 wins anyway. I complete almost all my quests and then occasionally play more when I'm fine-tuning a deck. But I think it is safe to say that, apart from the first few levels, the new system is not significantly better than the old system.
I think a lot of people were tolerating the old system because they had gotten used to it, not because they actually liked it. So even if the new system is roughly equal in terms of rewards (as Blizzard claims), it's still not going to give them a good impression.
Illidan the Inspired
I just learned you can't craft a card if you already own 2 copies of it.
Hot take - Blizzard is actually not that bad
Going Against Hearthstone's Meta - Off-Meta Standard Decks for Fun and Glory
I uploaded them just now.
Wild · Tempo Rogue · by SLima · 5 years, 10 months ago
Wild · Midrange Hunter · by SLima · 5 years, 10 months ago
Hot take - Blizzard is actually not that bad
I will reply to a few points below, but first and foremost, can you please use a more respectful tone when making your arguments? You are not going to convince anyone of anything if you start calling them naive and use absolutes like only your opinion is valid. The best discussions often arise through disagreement, but they only work if both sides respect each other.
---------------------------
Anyway, regarding Tavern Tickets: at absolute worst these amount to a pack of the most recent expansion plus a small amount of dust or gold. And that's what you'll get it you commit 5 minutes to building a deck and just conceding 3 games. If you actually try, you can get a decent amount of extra gold / dust. Now, I'm not saying Arena /Heroic Duels rewards are perfect (I mean, who wants those non-golden commons... seriously?), but the rewards are absolutely what players want, even if they wouldn't normally spend 150 gold on the game modes involved.
You are also portraying XP like it is worthless unless it pushes you over a level there and then, which is nonsense. Rewards in the progression track are more spaced out than the old trickle of gold, but the XP that gets you half way through a level is just as important as the XP that gets you over the level threshold. There is a clear psychological effect with many players where accumulating, say, 200 gold over time feels better than waiting to get it in 1 lump, but unless you are using that gold as you collect it there isn't an actual difference there. Now, what Blizz should do is just show the XP being added after each game, so you can see what it has earned you.
Finally, are weekly quests really that time consuming? Because they are often restricted to specific game modes it is fair to say different players will take longer on different ones, but let's use the default "Get 7 wins in ranked" quest as an example. Assuming 50% win rate, that's 14 games, or 2 a day. That's less than the daily quests ask for, so no, they are not really time consuming once you recognise they are spread across the week.
Compensation Has Gone Out For Hearthstone Players With Bugged Weekly Quests
you probably won't get any message
in my case I went to my rewards track and I had something like 7000/3000 next to my level and I had to play one game for that exp to get added to my total xp and for the game to calculate my level
Half and Half
I tried with Genn and 14 other even cards; didn't work.
I guess it would work if you happen to queue into another odd/even deck, but that's pretty unlikely and still wouldn't give you an advantage.
Half and Half
Something that has good synergy with your hero power. This is what I came up with:
Tavern Brawl · Tempo Demon Hunter · by Zelgadis · 3 years, 8 months ago
Half and Half
I played weapon rogue without running weapons to try to give my opponent useless cards aaaaaaand mirror match.
Dragonbane
Back in Ashes of Outland meta, it was Garrison Commander and a 4-14 damage godsend to face for Even Hunter.