Losing to these infinite value loops is never fun. It also means that they are now able to print stronger discover cards more consistently because they don't have to balance around stuff like that anymore.
Maybe they'll even bring the class bonus back. Pure RNG on minion discovery made those cards really bad by comparison.
It's not, but that's a fun idea, lol. Wasn't even thinking of Arabian Knights similarities. I honestly just wanted to come up with a way of having a non-evil warlock and partron, and incerted my love of stories to make the rp more connected to myself.
That Fae Guide is REALLY good! Much better than calling it a Ghost on a stick, since it grants Elusive for the same cost!
in card games it's not always about being cost efficient.. specially in runettera where spells are generally more expensive..
ghost is a card I never seen played and the map only occasionally so granting/giving elusive is not that good as far as the meta made it be.
I agree with your point about mana efficiency, but I think I have different conclusions regarding Fae Guide's worth.
The big reason Ghost and Sumpworks Map aren't played more is because they are too vulnerable to card disadvantage. First: both are literally unplayable if you don't have a target to play them on. Second: even if you do land them on a good target, most decks will have an answer (direct damage, vengeance, will, frost bite, single combat, challenger, etc) that will create a 1-for-2 card disadvantage. Finally: even if you do pull off the perfect combo, most of the time it's just not that significant payoff--e.g., maybe you connect with Shiraza the Blade and deal 6 nexus damage? There are so many better combos that are more reliable and provide better payoff.
The takeaway here should be that Fae Guide is giving a decent body (3/3) PLUS permanently giving something elusive for a single card. That can be big, especially if support is as prevalent in this upcoming meta as promised.
It indeed does... if you see same infuriating chaining too often, it becomes unfun very quickly... Like for example: Exotic Mountseller into bunch of Nature Studies
Sure it is exciting when it happens first 2 times maybe, but those diminishing returns kick in real hard when you see it 3-4 times already, and then it is just starts being unfun.
Mindrender Illucia is just no fun. Having key cards stripped away from hand is just abominable, and doing it for (2) is dirty cheap. This card should cost (3) or even (4).
I just wanted to echo how bad this feels to play against…and the emoting that comes after makes it all the saltier, haha
But beyond the gut punch, I just don't believe that a single card should be able to completely disrupt an entire archetype (Combo/OTK), especially when that archetype is a counter to what the class typically likes to do (play Control). I'm not against disruption cards in general, but this one seems too strong/guaranteed.
Thinking of nerfs, I agree that an increase in cost is most likely, but personally I'd like something different. I feel that there needs to be more of a way to play around this card as an opponent. So maybe the nerf could be that you only swap 4 or 5 cards from hand, randomly chosen, along with swapping decks. This way Combo decks could at least add some RNG into the equation by keeping their hand full, but it would come at a cost that would benefit Priests (in terms of losing tempo and/or having to add more card draw to the deck). Alternatively, you could add restrictions on the other end such as swapping only the number of cards that the Priest has in hand.
The problem is that cards like this are necessary unless we want T5 to just lay the nerf/ban hammer hard on combo/otk decks. Even if a combo isn't T0 or even T1 there usually ends up being a lot of uproar that eventually rises from the community. If T5 hasn't already produced a semi-consistent counter card to fight against it then T5 usually will cave to the vocal minority and severely weaken, or even kill, the combo (e.g. Grim Patron, Raging Worgen, Star Aligner, etc). At least with allowing these cards to exist it means T5 is less likely to kill modern combo decks. You have to carefully pick your poison if you want to be able to play the decks you enjoy (this is coming from a heavy wild combo/otk main btw).
Also, in wild otks are a bit ridiculous with 2 decks able to consistently kill you on turns 8 or 9 if you're a control main. While I always stand by the holy trinity of rock-paper-scissors I don't feel us otk players should consistently be able to win against control before turn 10. OTKs aren't meant to function that way. So in wild Illucia actually makes it possible to not insta concede as control if you go against Quest Mage or Mech'athun Lock.
Problem is Mindrender Illucia does much more than giving Control a tip against Combo, as you can steal finishers or key cards from ANY deck you find.
Also, at the moment Illucia is not just giving a chance, she's granting you the power to tear apart any deck based on some key cards, given the right moment to play her.
Mechathunlock almost out of cards > Mindrender Illucia > game over. That's more than just a chance at it.
You could even counter QMage, either stealing their reward, or, in case they are holding the completion, stealing their spell turn right before they are ready to resolve.
Same goes against Druid (steal spells) or any other deck with key cards in hand. Including Aggro, just to say. That's Dirty Rat on steroids.
All of a sudden a Control deck has virtually no vulnerability in the metagame.
If OTK are ridiculous because they can kick in too soon (ie QMage or Druid), then they do deserve a nerf, not a card that can counter anything consistently enough.
I get what you're saying. The issue though is how counter cards are designed in the first place. Hearthstone in general is very bad about creating counter tech cards because in probably over 80% of cards the tech is a coin flip that just wins a game when you play it if you win the coin flip of drawing it. For example, Geist just wins the game against Jade Druid and a handful of OTK decks if the opponent wins the coin flip of drawing it. Dirty Rat (often claimed as a well designed tech by some) is actually just at terrible coin flip 'I-win button'. You either hit 1-2 minions (if comboed with Brann) and you win, or you don't and you lose. Sure, hand reading and timing created a type of skill ceiling for the tech card where more experienced players had higher frequencies of using it to win against OTK, but at the end of the day it still was a polarizing tech where you win with result A and lose with result B. Other techs, not against OTK, could include the anti-murloc/pirate crabs. You drew them early against a murloc or pirate deck and significantly skyrocketed whether you won, or didn't draw them and your chance of winning was significantly plummeted. I do agree that Illucia is also one of these types of coin flip/polarizing 'I-win button' cards.
The problem lies with T5 not creating what I would call 'smart' tech cards, counters that don't instantly win or lose you the game based on a coin flip or good hit and instead create a temporary disruption or extra time that could influence a win/loss for either play across multiple turns. A great example of a smart tech card is Mojomaster Zihi. Zihi, when played against something like Mecha'Thun Lock, is not an instant win for the opponent while also still allowing the warlock a chance to fight for the win, assuming they didn't expend removal or healing that they may have otherwise been able to save in their hand until they got back up to 10 mana. Glide or the new DH legendary are also smart tech cards. They do not destroy anything in the hand, but require the opponent to delay combo setup and to draw the card(s) again. Sadly though T5 mainly prints cards that are niche specific against one or two decks and that essentially make a win or loss for or against the combo player based on the result of a random outcome (like Rat or drawing Mindrender Illucia vs not drawing her).
Although, like I said in my previous post, if strong tech cards against combo don't exist in a meta then T5 is very likely to just kill the deck, which I find is even worse than having an OP tech card against my favorite combo/OTK deck. While I don't like wins & loses turned into a coin toss of polarizing tech cards I'd rather at least be able to play my combo/OTK deck without it getting the Grim Patron/Raging Worgen/Star Aligner treatment.
Hi Lyra, sorry for the long delay as I'm not used to getting responses ;P and haven't been on OOC as much the past couple months since getting burnt out on HS (and Destiny 2). But I just wanted to say thank you for taking the time to write such thoughtful responses while also engaging with RavenSun.
When it comes to general philosophies, I think we're on the same page in terms of the need for good combo disruption tools and a preference for the sorts of "smart" tech cards that you outlined (I really liked this distinction!). I just think that, in the specific case of Mindrender Illucia, the card either needs to be nerfed or converted into a "smart" option that doesn't win or lose the game if drawn/not drawn. And again, my claim isn't coming from a place of "Illucia is too meta-defining!" but rather that, for me personally, "Illucia is too feelsbadman" for an entire archetype that counters Control Priest.
We may still disagree, but my best guess is that that's due to: 1) Me coming from the perspective of Standard as opposed to WIld; and/or 2) The fact that I don't play T1 OTK decks so I'm more in favor of both the OP OTK decks getting weakened and the OP counter cards getting weakened (as RavenSun preferred).
Regarding #1 - I hadn't considered your arguments about how strong Wild OTK decks are at the moment, but this leads me to wanting separate balancing for both Standard and Wild as opposed to allowing cards that are balanced in Wild to dominate in Standard. So when you unpack Illucia, why not give 2 versions of the card that only work in their respective mode with the Standard version being retired/folded into the Wild version when it rotates? I know this would be harder in terms of coding and player confusion, but from a game balancing perspective I don't see why we don't have separate sandboxes.
Regarding #2 - This is just my opinion and I don't believe it should be imposed on others, but my ideal meta always includes OTK decks as a viable strategy, but they rarely rise to the ranks of T1 or T0 given how tilting they can be for the vocal minority that you mentioned in your original post (I feel the same way about Casino builds). So I've been on board with the nerfs, in Standard, to some of the old Malygos Druid decks that seemed OP, but I would've pushed back against nerfs to slower or less consistent OTK decks like when some of the Shirvallah OTK Pallys were meta-viable.
Lastly, I just wanted to leave a comment about Neutral Legendaries. It's obvious that neutral cards can only be as strong as they perform in the classes for which they have the most synergies. However, I find it frustrating when a card like Kael'thas Sunstrider performs so much better in certain classes that when it's nerfed it's no longer viable in any other classes than the originally OP ones. E.g., I'd argue that Kael'thas is extremetely fair at 7-mana in Hunter, and was borderline fair at 6-mana, but going any higher will kill it completely. So instead of a one-size-fits-all nerf to Kael'thas again, why not print multiple versions with different mana costs or abilities (e.g., only one 0-cost spell vs. a new 0-cost spell every 3 spells) like they did with all of the different versions of Galakrond? Or you could make it simpler with 3 versions (1 quad-class and 2 tri-class)...
Lol, that's just crazy, dude! Props for the creativity. I've had some really good characters that I enjoy playing, as well as some blah ones that I had to create way too quickly for impromptu on-shots. My favorite new character-- who will become my own NPC someday-- is a tabaxi warlock who's patron is a Marid. Marid's are famed story tellers and he basically will do anything she wants him to do in exchange for payment in stories. He's going to be really fun to rp with his strange social skills once the game gets going.
At first I assumed that Support would be a big focus for Targon, but the reveals from the past two days have included a lot of Support cards for Ionia as well. So I guess that Support is a general theme for this expansion.
I like that. Support has seemed underutilized so far, and I think it will lead to a lot of interesting decisions during the game.
Is it just me or lulu's art in pre-level up and post-level up are kinda different in style? Like the first one looks more real and the second one goes cartoony..
Overwhelm is not "just stats." Overwhelm ends games.
Gems make it extremely easy to reduce the cost, so no, it will not be too late in the game. You don't go by what "most decks" do; you go by what you can do with the deck built specifically for this.
I really like this change that "reroll" or "create an infinite chain" was really annoying to deal with..
Well you can think of the option of the card being itself as a rearoll but now you won't get a "Bad" option of itself, so overall it's probably ok in the end..
still I would like them to make class cards more common.. not 4 times.. but somewhat more common?
They sure are printing a lot of ways to bait out the pings.
"Answer it if you can; you're in big trouble if you can't" seems to be the main theme in Ionia now.
I don't even think this is worth a ping. It's a 0/1: it gets blocked by anything, it dies. I know the dream is that you attack with a legion of supports and this guy is getting buffed while also giving a buff, but that assumes you have time to assembly a wide board which I think is a big ask in most matchups. In practice, I don't think anyone is going to run it unless he gets either a mana reduction, stat boost, or something to address the inherent card disadvantage (e.g., Last Whisper: gain a Whimsy!). Otherwise: it's like War Chefs with -2/-2 stats for 1 less mana.
Yay, the game finally has easily accessible Silence!
And of course it's in Ionia, aka the Fun Police region!
I'm actually non-sarcastically very happy that we finally have another answer to things like Ledros, not to mention the other graveyard high jinks that have become so popular these days.
As someone who has never played LoL and has never seen the artwork from that game, this seems fine to me. I think a lot of people are confusing "not what I'm used to" with "bad."
As for the mechanical aspects of the Champion ... omg. So powerful, unique, and easy to level up. She'll be able to fit into all kinds of different archetypes. Even if you have to hold her until she levels up, she's worth it.
I like your Design ideas for the Hearthstone menues and Decks. Also I would love if that kind of endless dungeonrun gets implemented. Thanks for the hard Work.
One turn Murloc transitions are cool, but have you ever one turn Dragon transitioned?
https://youtu.be/3-bwJzmuDX4
Hearthstone's Discover Keyword, A Favourite Since Its Debut in League of Explorers, Has Been Nerfed
It literally nerfed only Nature Studies out of all studies, because rest are not even in their own discover pull to begin with...
Hearthstone's Discover Keyword, A Favourite Since Its Debut in League of Explorers, Has Been Nerfed
This is good. I wonder what took them so long.
Losing to these infinite value loops is never fun. It also means that they are now able to print stronger discover cards more consistently because they don't have to balance around stuff like that anymore.
Maybe they'll even bring the class bonus back. Pure RNG on minion discovery made those cards really bad by comparison.
Hearthstone's Discover Keyword, A Favourite Since Its Debut in League of Explorers, Has Been Nerfed
You cannot discover a spell (Demoňic studies) with itself and never was able to.
The Story of Kel'Thuzad, Master of Necromancy - Traversing Azeroth
It's not, but that's a fun idea, lol. Wasn't even thinking of Arabian Knights similarities. I honestly just wanted to come up with a way of having a non-evil warlock and partron, and incerted my love of stories to make the rp more connected to myself.
Lulu is the Newest Legends of Runeterra Ionia Champion Coming in Call of the Mountain (5 New Cards Revealed!)
I agree with your point about mana efficiency, but I think I have different conclusions regarding Fae Guide's worth.
The big reason Ghost and Sumpworks Map aren't played more is because they are too vulnerable to card disadvantage. First: both are literally unplayable if you don't have a target to play them on. Second: even if you do land them on a good target, most decks will have an answer (direct damage, vengeance, will, frost bite, single combat, challenger, etc) that will create a 1-for-2 card disadvantage. Finally: even if you do pull off the perfect combo, most of the time it's just not that significant payoff--e.g., maybe you connect with Shiraza the Blade and deal 6 nexus damage? There are so many better combos that are more reliable and provide better payoff.
The takeaway here should be that Fae Guide is giving a decent body (3/3) PLUS permanently giving something elusive for a single card. That can be big, especially if support is as prevalent in this upcoming meta as promised.
Hearthstone's Discover Keyword, A Favourite Since Its Debut in League of Explorers, Has Been Nerfed
It indeed does... if you see same infuriating chaining too often, it becomes unfun very quickly... Like for example:
Exotic Mountseller into bunch of Nature Studies
Or Evocation chaining into other Evocation
Or Renew discovering itself several times to heal priest way out of range...
And Underbelly Angler getting another Underbelly Angler is pretty strong too...
Sure it is exciting when it happens first 2 times maybe, but those diminishing returns kick in real hard when you see it 3-4 times already, and then it is just starts being unfun.
P.S. what dev was talking about is "having fun"
Nerf Predictions for Scholomance Academy
Thank you for that novel. Are you enroute to get it published?
Nerf Predictions for Scholomance Academy
Hi Lyra, sorry for the long delay as I'm not used to getting responses ;P and haven't been on OOC as much the past couple months since getting burnt out on HS (and Destiny 2). But I just wanted to say thank you for taking the time to write such thoughtful responses while also engaging with RavenSun.
When it comes to general philosophies, I think we're on the same page in terms of the need for good combo disruption tools and a preference for the sorts of "smart" tech cards that you outlined (I really liked this distinction!). I just think that, in the specific case of Mindrender Illucia, the card either needs to be nerfed or converted into a "smart" option that doesn't win or lose the game if drawn/not drawn. And again, my claim isn't coming from a place of "Illucia is too meta-defining!" but rather that, for me personally, "Illucia is too feelsbadman" for an entire archetype that counters Control Priest.
We may still disagree, but my best guess is that that's due to: 1) Me coming from the perspective of Standard as opposed to WIld; and/or 2) The fact that I don't play T1 OTK decks so I'm more in favor of both the OP OTK decks getting weakened and the OP counter cards getting weakened (as RavenSun preferred).
Regarding #1 - I hadn't considered your arguments about how strong Wild OTK decks are at the moment, but this leads me to wanting separate balancing for both Standard and Wild as opposed to allowing cards that are balanced in Wild to dominate in Standard. So when you unpack Illucia, why not give 2 versions of the card that only work in their respective mode with the Standard version being retired/folded into the Wild version when it rotates? I know this would be harder in terms of coding and player confusion, but from a game balancing perspective I don't see why we don't have separate sandboxes.
Regarding #2 - This is just my opinion and I don't believe it should be imposed on others, but my ideal meta always includes OTK decks as a viable strategy, but they rarely rise to the ranks of T1 or T0 given how tilting they can be for the vocal minority that you mentioned in your original post (I feel the same way about Casino builds). So I've been on board with the nerfs, in Standard, to some of the old Malygos Druid decks that seemed OP, but I would've pushed back against nerfs to slower or less consistent OTK decks like when some of the Shirvallah OTK Pallys were meta-viable.
Lastly, I just wanted to leave a comment about Neutral Legendaries. It's obvious that neutral cards can only be as strong as they perform in the classes for which they have the most synergies. However, I find it frustrating when a card like Kael'thas Sunstrider performs so much better in certain classes that when it's nerfed it's no longer viable in any other classes than the originally OP ones. E.g., I'd argue that Kael'thas is extremetely fair at 7-mana in Hunter, and was borderline fair at 6-mana, but going any higher will kill it completely. So instead of a one-size-fits-all nerf to Kael'thas again, why not print multiple versions with different mana costs or abilities (e.g., only one 0-cost spell vs. a new 0-cost spell every 3 spells) like they did with all of the different versions of Galakrond? Or you could make it simpler with 3 versions (1 quad-class and 2 tri-class)...
The Story of Kel'Thuzad, Master of Necromancy - Traversing Azeroth
Is the Marid's name Shaharazad
Lulu is the Newest Legends of Runeterra Ionia Champion Coming in Call of the Mountain (5 New Cards Revealed!)
At first I assumed that Support would be a big focus for Targon, but the reveals from the past two days have included a lot of Support cards for Ionia as well. So I guess that Support is a general theme for this expansion.
I like that. Support has seemed underutilized so far, and I think it will lead to a lot of interesting decisions during the game.
Lulu is the Newest Legends of Runeterra Ionia Champion Coming in Call of the Mountain (5 New Cards Revealed!)
Is it just me or lulu's art in pre-level up and post-level up are kinda different in style? Like the first one looks more real and the second one goes cartoony..
New Targon Card - Arbiter of the Peak
Overwhelm is not "just stats." Overwhelm ends games.
Gems make it extremely easy to reduce the cost, so no, it will not be too late in the game. You don't go by what "most decks" do; you go by what you can do with the deck built specifically for this.
Hearthstone's Discover Keyword, A Favourite Since Its Debut in League of Explorers, Has Been Nerfed
I really like this change that "reroll" or "create an infinite chain" was really annoying to deal with..
Well you can think of the option of the card being itself as a rearoll but now you won't get a "Bad" option of itself, so overall it's probably ok in the end..
still I would like them to make class cards more common.. not 4 times.. but somewhat more common?
New Ionia Card - Pix!
I don't even think this is worth a ping. It's a 0/1: it gets blocked by anything, it dies. I know the dream is that you attack with a legion of supports and this guy is getting buffed while also giving a buff, but that assumes you have time to assembly a wide board which I think is a big ask in most matchups. In practice, I don't think anyone is going to run it unless he gets either a mana reduction, stat boost, or something to address the inherent card disadvantage (e.g., Last Whisper: gain a Whimsy!). Otherwise: it's like War Chefs with -2/-2 stats for 1 less mana.
Lulu is the Newest Legends of Runeterra Ionia Champion Coming in Call of the Mountain (5 New Cards Revealed!)
in card games it's not always about being cost efficient.. specially in runettera where spells are generally more expensive..
ghost is a card I never seen played and the map only occasionally so granting/giving elusive is not that good as far as the meta made it be.
New Ionia Card - Fae Guide
Ionia can finally grant permanent Elusive -- on a stick, no less!
This will see a LOT of play, almost auto-include for the region.
New Ionia Spell - Whimsy
Yay, the game finally has easily accessible Silence!
And of course it's in Ionia, aka the Fun Police region!
I'm actually non-sarcastically very happy that we finally have another answer to things like Ledros, not to mention the other graveyard high jinks that have become so popular these days.
New Targon Card - Startled Stomper
isn't too impressive tbh, it's intended as a buff/support target but there are better ones
New Targon Card - Startled Stomper
Note that it's Targon, not Ionia.
Works great with the support cards from both regions, though, and perfect vanilla stats to begin with.
New Ionia Card - Pix!
They sure are printing a lot of ways to bait out the pings.
"Answer it if you can; you're in big trouble if you can't" seems to be the main theme in Ionia now.
New Ionia Champion - Lulu
As someone who has never played LoL and has never seen the artwork from that game, this seems fine to me. I think a lot of people are confusing "not what I'm used to" with "bad."
As for the mechanical aspects of the Champion ... omg. So powerful, unique, and easy to level up. She'll be able to fit into all kinds of different archetypes. Even if you have to hold her until she levels up, she's worth it.
Lulu is the Newest Legends of Runeterra Ionia Champion Coming in Call of the Mountain (5 New Cards Revealed!)
That Fae Guide is REALLY good! Much better than calling it a Ghost on a stick, since it grants Elusive for the same cost!
Hearthstone, The Tavern has been Renovated.
Thank you
Hearthstone, The Tavern has been Renovated.
Thank you for reading!