They wanna make sure the monetization is right first. I.e. such that we won't realize how p2w/greedy/etc everything will be until it's too late. They could even go for a very friendly approach to start off the game, then change it progressively towards having to spend more money in it or on loot boxes
I completely agree with your words. Yes, Mutanus can win the game or do a lot of disruption, but he is random and costs as much as 7 mana. I didn't liked Theotar right away even before the release. Even with 9 cards in hand, there is a very high chance of losing a valuable card. And this is happens every time. Also in return, something weak or completely useless is given. And it's only for 4 mana. For a very long time we had only a Dirty Rat, but now there are even more serious ways to spoil the opponent's game. I hope this card will be nerfed.
I think Theotar is quite a bit different from Illucia. There was really nothing you could do about the latter, since your whole hand got taken. Theotar can absolutely be played around in the deck stage - either have multiple win conditions, or have your sole win condition be malleable enough that taking out one card doesn't destroy it.
That type of disruption is healthy for the game IMO. It prevents so-called "solitaire" decks forming, where the opponent can't really interact with you because it's all about gathering the perfect combo in your hand.
- Would be surprised if Edwin, Defias Kingpin doesn't get a revert, making it the first card in hearthstone history to get buffed and then reverted in less than a month. If team5 do not wish to create history, then they'll likely hit two other cards, Sinstone Graveyard (for virtually creating impossible to counter giants before turn 6) or Necrolord Draka (wouldn't surprise me too much if the durability is reduced to 2, or cost goes up to 5)
Rogue has been dominating the meta in a very unhealthy fashion. Forget your implocks and aggro druid, this deck can finish up by turn 6.
- Im not sure what team5 will do to mage. Not introducing Living Dragonbreath into standard is just one of those boneheaded moves given that they're trying to push out one of the most obnoxious elements in hearthstone. At this point, its very likely Nightcloak Sanctum or Flurry (Rank 1) would be targets, but I think team5 would just nerf Wildfire and mordresh back to what it was and call it a day. Basically, team5's idea here would be to tone mage back to midtier and pray no one gets their board frozen 6 turns in a row too many times.
- Wildheart Guff? No. Someone in their design team evidently can't sleep without jerking off to this card, so it'll stay. What else then? Nourish back to 6 perhaps, because the Jerry Rig Carpenter into nourish is simply too good, so much so that every other choose one spell are barely considered.
Perhaps druids wont be nerfed at all. Basically ramp druid is living off the fact that it has a good matchup towards both mage and rogues, so removing that may solve much of the issues in of itself.
- Hunter will get another nerf somewhere. Probably Wild Spirits to 4. Or perhaps we'll finally see the quest get nerfed. Third condition from 2 spells to 3 likely.
- And of course, I think its fairly obvious both Kael'thas Sinstrider and mad duke are going to be nerfed. Sinstrider because they're never going to nerf brann or denathrius, and theotar because this one card is simply too good. This card is extraordinarily consistent. Too consistent.
Any chance of them looking at Prince Renathal at all? I still think its fairly evident team5 cant balance cards around 40-30 health. Best to address this now, before its too late. Its very likely there's a new class next expansion, so that's one extra tightrope you dont need baggage for.
Theotar gives me vibes from Illucia, in a meta with slow decks getting your wincon stollen is pretty frustrating, and a disruption card with over 50% presence in decks goes against they idea from disruption cards being overly played.
For the sake of consistency, it makes sense to allow minions as well. It'd be really weird to allow one and not the other as the distinction is seemingly arbitrary.
Nightshade Bud would have been an acceptable submission even if minions were not allowed because it can cast the spells from your deck; the minion part would've been considered non-relevant to the comp, albeit still a cool addition to the card. We debated a little whether or not minions should be allowed, and the group decided that they're fine. My opinion doesn't matter anymore *shrugs*
This was all an unnecessarily-verbose way of saying Yes, those two are fine. Dirty Rat, Party Crasher, Deathwing, Dragonlord, Ironforge Portal; pulling minions from the hand or deck (or the ether) are okay.
As Demon would put it, if this was a physical card game, both of your examples would cause a player to place a card from their hand onto the table, effectively "playing" it. I think "play" has a slightly different definition in Hearthstone because you have to truly pay the cost of a minion to trigger its Battlecry - as opposed to summoning it randomly, Recruiting it from the deck, etc. - but Tess Greymane was an example given to us by Sothis, and she can replay minions, so we have to assume minions are allowed as well.
I wanted Yogg to cast the spells regardless of whether you've played them yet. That way you don't have to spend a turn to play that expensive spell/number of smaller spells that are still in your hand before you can use Yogg effectively. But in case the phrasing is too unusual, I did make an alternative version that sticks to the "that didn't start in your deck" line.
Alt version
Edit: Noticed "spell" not being a plural.
Edit: And the misspelling of "if"… Look, it was late at night, okay.
Theotar, the Mad Duke is another excellent example of how overpowered the discover ability truly is. This combined with opponent's hand disruption is just poor card design IMO. Often times it is not even random at all, because the hand size is small or contains duplicate cards.
I believe Hearthstone would be a much healthier game overall if they changed the discover ability from choosing between 3 options to 2 instead. Heck, even keeping the 3 options but having 1 of them hidden somewhat similar to Vulpera Scoundrel would make it more balanced.
These nerf suggestions are probably less exciting nor popular, but they do not outright kill the ability and still keep the original idea/spirit alive.
That's debatable Viego do not level up in the deck and require you to have other unit's on the board to get his engine going.
Ornn will probably hit the board with Level 2 he can get stats from either hand or board giving him more flexibility, he buff himself on attack and summon a finisher, without hard removal or a stunt him it will be game over.
Let me start by saying I enjoy combos: it's super fun to assemble your pieces, fend off the enemy, then administer the coup de grace. I also think that combo disruption is important for the game.
I think Mutanus the Devourer is a perfect and well-balanced combo disruptor: he can only hit minions (he can do nothing about a Purified Shard already in hand, a game-winning Bloodlust, or any hero card you care to mention), he is expensive, and he chooses a random target. Using Mutanus to stop an enemy combo requires a lot of luck, a lot of mana, and some decent hand-reading. And perhaps best of all, he was part of a mini-set, making him easier to collect than most other legendaries.
I hate Theotar, the Mad Duke. He is inexpensive, allows you to choose a target, can steal ANY card (not just minions), and worst of all, he allows your enemy to use your win condition against you.
I'll include my super salty story below here as a spoiler for anyone who cares to read it. Otherwise, feel free to respond to the opinions above. Agree? Disagree? Let's chat, friends.
Show Spoiler
I'm playing Quest Priest vs. Denathrius Druid. I'm working through my quest, answering my opponent's board, and just having a grand old time. I'm even putting on enough pressure that he has to play his Sire Denathrius early just to stay alive. Then he plays Zola the Gorgon to get a second Sire for later (he's Guff by now and has at least 13 mana). My response: Whirlpool, which honestly hurts my own board worse than his, but it gets rid of both of his Sires (one on board, one in hand). He has NO win condition. I complete my quest. He plays Theotar, the Mad Duke and ganks my Xyrella, the Sanctified, then plays it immediately. I did everything right, made the good plays, defeated his win condition, then lost to my own win condition because of one stupid card that didn't even require any skill or much luck to use.
Two variations of the same idea. I think they count, given the examples provided by the prompt.
I think the dude version will be preferred, but I don't know if the idea is inherently too aggro. Maybe they would be more balanced as Legendaries, dunno.
EDIT: linkblade's Massive Macaw reminded me of another Druid Parrot I made back when Deadmines was announced. It's a bit too similar to both Pathmaker and Raid Negotiator, though.
Marvel Snap Developer Discord Recap #10 - Card Acquisition, Cosmetic Loadouts, & More!
They wanna make sure the monetization is right first. I.e. such that we won't realize how p2w/greedy/etc everything will be until it's too late. They could even go for a very friendly approach to start off the game, then change it progressively towards having to spend more money in it or on loot boxes
Mutanus vs Theotar: opinion on combo disruption
I completely agree with your words.
Yes, Mutanus can win the game or do a lot of disruption, but he is random and costs as much as 7 mana.
I didn't liked Theotar right away even before the release. Even with 9 cards in hand, there is a very high chance of losing a valuable card. And this is happens every time. Also in return, something weak or completely useless is given. And it's only for 4 mana.
For a very long time we had only a Dirty Rat, but now there are even more serious ways to spoil the opponent's game. I hope this card will be nerfed.
Best 12-Win Hearthstone Duels Decks to Play This Week - Kingsbane Reno, Relic Vanndar & More
Thanks for this! I appreciate each time the duels deck posts show up.
I had a slow start with the Drekthar Mage deck on this one but ended upp with 9 wins.
Last week or the week before that I had a probably 6-7 wins average every time with the Rush Warrior decks suggested in Heroic.
Even if you dont have all cards for a deck this is good ideas for anyone trying to get into duels mode
Hearthstone Is Getting Another Balance Patch - Coming Soon!
If you depend on one card (Denarius) then the issue is not Theotar, but your one card strategy.
Hearthstone Is Getting Another Balance Patch - Coming Soon!
Denathrius because no dust refund. EZ
Hearthstone Is Getting Another Balance Patch - Coming Soon!
Macaw and/or Keal'thas ft . Brann are the problem
Cast On, Cast Off - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread
My first idea hit a dead end. So I hope weapons count too.
Hearthstone Is Getting Another Balance Patch - Coming Soon!
I think Theotar is quite a bit different from Illucia. There was really nothing you could do about the latter, since your whole hand got taken. Theotar can absolutely be played around in the deck stage - either have multiple win conditions, or have your sole win condition be malleable enough that taking out one card doesn't destroy it.
That type of disruption is healthy for the game IMO. It prevents so-called "solitaire" decks forming, where the opponent can't really interact with you because it's all about gathering the perfect combo in your hand.
Hearthstone Is Getting Another Balance Patch - Coming Soon!
My comments on possible nerfs;
- Would be surprised if Edwin, Defias Kingpin doesn't get a revert, making it the first card in hearthstone history to get buffed and then reverted in less than a month. If team5 do not wish to create history, then they'll likely hit two other cards, Sinstone Graveyard (for virtually creating impossible to counter giants before turn 6) or Necrolord Draka (wouldn't surprise me too much if the durability is reduced to 2, or cost goes up to 5)
Rogue has been dominating the meta in a very unhealthy fashion. Forget your implocks and aggro druid, this deck can finish up by turn 6.
- Im not sure what team5 will do to mage. Not introducing Living Dragonbreath into standard is just one of those boneheaded moves given that they're trying to push out one of the most obnoxious elements in hearthstone. At this point, its very likely Nightcloak Sanctum or Flurry (Rank 1) would be targets, but I think team5 would just nerf Wildfire and mordresh back to what it was and call it a day. Basically, team5's idea here would be to tone mage back to midtier and pray no one gets their board frozen 6 turns in a row too many times.
- Wildheart Guff? No. Someone in their design team evidently can't sleep without jerking off to this card, so it'll stay. What else then? Nourish back to 6 perhaps, because the Jerry Rig Carpenter into nourish is simply too good, so much so that every other choose one spell are barely considered.
Perhaps druids wont be nerfed at all. Basically ramp druid is living off the fact that it has a good matchup towards both mage and rogues, so removing that may solve much of the issues in of itself.
- Hunter will get another nerf somewhere. Probably Wild Spirits to 4. Or perhaps we'll finally see the quest get nerfed. Third condition from 2 spells to 3 likely.
- And of course, I think its fairly obvious both Kael'thas Sinstrider and mad duke are going to be nerfed. Sinstrider because they're never going to nerf brann or denathrius, and theotar because this one card is simply too good. This card is extraordinarily consistent. Too consistent.
Any chance of them looking at Prince Renathal at all? I still think its fairly evident team5 cant balance cards around 40-30 health. Best to address this now, before its too late. Its very likely there's a new class next expansion, so that's one extra tightrope you dont need baggage for.
Hearthstone Is Getting Another Balance Patch - Coming Soon!
Theotar gives me vibes from Illucia, in a meta with slow decks getting your wincon stollen is pretty frustrating, and a disruption card with over 50% presence in decks goes against they idea from disruption cards being overly played.
Hearthstone Is Getting Another Balance Patch - Coming Soon!
Denathrius is the problem, not the theotar...
Cast On, Cast Off - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread
For the sake of consistency, it makes sense to allow minions as well. It'd be really weird to allow one and not the other as the distinction is seemingly arbitrary.
Marvel Snap Developer Discord Recap #10 - Card Acquisition, Cosmetic Loadouts, & More!
just give us the damn game already
Cast On, Cast Off - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread
Nightshade Bud would have been an acceptable submission even if minions were not allowed because it can cast the spells from your deck; the minion part would've been considered non-relevant to the comp, albeit still a cool addition to the card. We debated a little whether or not minions should be allowed, and the group decided that they're fine. My opinion doesn't matter anymore *shrugs*
This was all an unnecessarily-verbose way of saying Yes, those two are fine. Dirty Rat, Party Crasher, Deathwing, Dragonlord, Ironforge Portal; pulling minions from the hand or deck (or the ether) are okay.
Cast On, Cast Off - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread
But Party Crasher is just slightly different neutral Nightshade Bud, isn't it?
Cast On, Cast Off - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread
As Demon would put it, if this was a physical card game, both of your examples would cause a player to place a card from their hand onto the table, effectively "playing" it. I think "play" has a slightly different definition in Hearthstone because you have to truly pay the cost of a minion to trigger its Battlecry - as opposed to summoning it randomly, Recruiting it from the deck, etc. - but Tess Greymane was an example given to us by Sothis, and she can replay minions, so we have to assume minions are allowed as well.
Cast On, Cast Off - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread
Other "cards" or "spells"? For example Dirty Rat or Party Crasher is allowed?
Cast On, Cast Off - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread
I wanted Yogg to cast the spells regardless of whether you've played them yet. That way you don't have to spend a turn to play that expensive spell/number of smaller spells that are still in your hand before you can use Yogg effectively. But in case the phrasing is too unusual, I did make an alternative version that sticks to the "that didn't start in your deck" line.
Edit: Noticed "spell" not being a plural.
Edit: And the misspelling of "if"… Look, it was late at night, okay.
Dawn Of The Dead - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread
Congrats FooBar! Glad you refined your idea and managed to win with it :)
Mutanus vs Theotar: opinion on combo disruption
I could not agree more!
Theotar, the Mad Duke is another excellent example of how overpowered the discover ability truly is. This combined with opponent's hand disruption is just poor card design IMO. Often times it is not even random at all, because the hand size is small or contains duplicate cards.
I believe Hearthstone would be a much healthier game overall if they changed the discover ability from choosing between 3 options to 2 instead. Heck, even keeping the 3 options but having 1 of them hidden somewhat similar to Vulpera Scoundrel would make it more balanced.
These nerf suggestions are probably less exciting nor popular, but they do not outright kill the ability and still keep the original idea/spirit alive.
Ornn Is Forging His Way to Legends of Runeterra in the Upcoming "Awakening" Expansion
That's debatable Viego do not level up in the deck and require you to have other unit's on the board to get his engine going.
Ornn will probably hit the board with Level 2 he can get stats from either hand or board giving him more flexibility, he buff himself on attack and summon a finisher, without hard removal or a stunt him it will be game over.
Cast On, Cast Off - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread
A little education will go a long way.
Mutanus vs Theotar: opinion on combo disruption
Let me start by saying I enjoy combos: it's super fun to assemble your pieces, fend off the enemy, then administer the coup de grace. I also think that combo disruption is important for the game.
I think Mutanus the Devourer is a perfect and well-balanced combo disruptor: he can only hit minions (he can do nothing about a Purified Shard already in hand, a game-winning Bloodlust, or any hero card you care to mention), he is expensive, and he chooses a random target. Using Mutanus to stop an enemy combo requires a lot of luck, a lot of mana, and some decent hand-reading. And perhaps best of all, he was part of a mini-set, making him easier to collect than most other legendaries.
I hate Theotar, the Mad Duke. He is inexpensive, allows you to choose a target, can steal ANY card (not just minions), and worst of all, he allows your enemy to use your win condition against you.
I'll include my super salty story below here as a spoiler for anyone who cares to read it. Otherwise, feel free to respond to the opinions above. Agree? Disagree? Let's chat, friends.
Dawn Of The Dead - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread
Congratulations to Foobars!
Seven people gave me 5-stars in the first round, but not one in the finalist vote? That's quite a bummer :(
Cast On, Cast Off - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread
Two variations of the same idea. I think they count, given the examples provided by the prompt.
I think the dude version will be preferred, but I don't know if the idea is inherently too aggro. Maybe they would be more balanced as Legendaries, dunno.
EDIT: linkblade's Massive Macaw reminded me of another Druid Parrot I made back when Deadmines was announced. It's a bit too similar to both Pathmaker and Raid Negotiator, though.