A good question, and it can be asked alongside Volatile Elemental. They are good comparisons with Lilian, and fortunately the main differences with the trusty old Boom Bot are very similar.
Clearly having a 7/7 Dr. Boom is good in its own right, but by forcing the opponent's attention onto it, the lowly Boom Bots often get to attack. This lets them take advantage of Hearthstone's mechanics favouring the attacker, just like stealth does for Lilian. Meanwhile the Kaboom Bot and Volatile Elemental don't have this luxury: they are low statted for their cost and easily picked off, letting the opponent take advantage of being the attacker instead, and giving them more control over what the deathrattle hits.
The second reason is more subjective: whether it is beneficial to be able to hit the opponent's face or not. I would argue that for this type of effect it is, because these minions are often killed when there are no minions of your opponent's side of the board. When that happens, Kaboom Bot is just a 3 mana 2/2, but a Boom Bot will at least guarantee some face damage. In a wider sense, being able to hit the face means you are guaranteed to do something beneficial. On certain board states it might be the worst outcome, but at least you cannot whiff completely.
It is worth noting that on both of these matters Lilian is undoubtedly the strongest of them. After charge, and often but not always rush (note rush<stealth if the opponent has no minons), stealth is the best tool minions have to ensure they take advantage of attacking. And if Lilian attacks the face, you are left with a minion.
If you want to take aim at Demon Hunter's class identity, as your thread title suggests, then go right ahead. The class' main problem in my eyes is that it is designed to be excellent at all the basics, meaning it has no serious weaknesses, and now making them kings of disruption as well is going to be problematic.
But, that's not what you are doing here. You are making assumptions about the power levels of cards before seeing them in action, and letting those assumptions fuel anger before anyone can actually verify them. Of course the reveal season is all about making assumptions and projecting that forwards, but countless times people (and often the entire community) have called cards that end up seeing no play OP, or called some of the most notorious cards in the entire game trash.
You may well be right in your assessments and do not need to give Blizzard a penny, but you can still show some patience here because if experience of reveal seasons tells us anything, it is that you cannot trust your early assessments.
I won't engage in a discussion over all the cards you bring up, but I will wade in regarding Infiltrator Lilian to make a point. Your comparison to Piloted Shredder is appropriate, so let's break down that comparison and leave Kobold Barbarian out of it.
The first body is a 4/2 stealth vs a 4/3 mech. Which of these is better? Neither objectively, but most often I would take Lilian as it usually won't get caught in AoE crossfire unless you over-commit, and HS is a game which benefits the attacker more than the defender, so having more control on that with stealth is a significant plus point.
The mech tag can matter, but not much in rogue and certainly not in standard at the moment.
Meanwhile rogue wants things with stealth at the moment, so that's and extra plus.
What about the deathrattle: is a 4/2 instant random attack better than a random 2-drop? Again there is no objectively correct answer, but again I would side with Lilian here. Not only is 4/2 higher than average stats on a 2-drop, but similarly to stealth it denies your opponent the choice of how to deal with it before it attacks. Sure the attack won't always be optimal, but look at it this way: the worst it can do is run into the thing that your opponent would choose to trade into it with anyway.
So all put together, Infiltrator Lilian is usually better than Piloted Shredder on all fronts. At the very worst then it is a solid card, and nowhere near the pits in which Kobold Librarian lives.
You could also compare it to a Boom Bot, with the deathrattle always dealing 4 damage and possibly leaving a body behind too. Because the Boom Bot isn't a collectible card it is silly to read much into this, but keep in mind Boom Bots were always taken seriously and made Dr. Boom the first infamous card for good reason.
Secret Passage is very cool. I wonder how it works with cards drawn and generated. Whether they are kept or shuffled back is vital information for a class with lots of both.
It'll all end in tears, not because the mechanic is necessarily that powerful, but because the past has told us several times that a deck that is frustrating to play against is considered more problematic than an overly powerful one (i'm looking at you Big Priest and OG Quest Rogue).
It should do. Sending minions 'backwards' (board -> hand -> deck) always resets them to their base versions unless they are explicitly put there with a buff.
Going into this expansion a few people were expecting him to be too dark for HS, which I'd guess is why his card doesn't bare much resemblance to his Warcraft lore. I suppose he carries melee weapons (meat cleavers), which I guess qualifies him to be the teacher of the rogue/warrior class pair?
I'd be surprised if Kel'Thuzad tried too hard to find a teacher for an almost magic-less dual class, and to his eyes all melee weapons are crude wastes of time. Yes, that is now my head-canon: Krastinov was ordered to teach rogue/warriors for no better reason than that KT doesn't know/appreciate the difference between a meat cleaver and a sword.
I was playing rogue against priest, and I regretted my choice when my opponent discovered and played Tess Greymane. When I top-decked Gang Up and eventually drew multiple Tess's of my own, the priest regretted their choice even more.
My point was that since the effect was tied to the character, it would not have appeared on a rare or epic simply because it was tailor made for a legendary character. I expect the card design process was:
Pick Lilian Voss as the rogue legendary.
Design a card that fits her story.
I.e. the rarity came before the effect. Or said the another way: by the time the effect was chosen, no other rarity was an option.
I'll stop going around in circles now...
I agree stealth and rush can function similarly, but stealth is in practice closer to charge than it is to rush, and it is often right to attack the opponent's face. When you are playing the aggressor like that, your opponent will have to kill the unstealthed 4/2 sooner or later, so I think it will attack fairly often on your opponent's turn.
It is a fairly similar difficulty to activate for both classes too, since they both have hero powers and many cards (including lifesteal in both classes) that will activate it, so I like it. In fact, I think it is a clever way of getting 1 card to push 2 very different decks, which is great for diversity.
Because the card was designed to tell Lilian Voss's story, so it couldn't be anything other than a legendary. Besides, the fast attack of the deathrattle, especially on your opponent's turn, is unique enough that I expect she'll be more interesting to play with and around than she looks.
Because Lilian Voss is a fairly major lore character, who infiltrates the Scarlet Monastery (hence her clothes in the art), kills High Inquisitor Whitemane, and afterwards infiltrates Scholomace, it is clear they were going with a top-down, story-telling design for her card. Granted the story seems a little out of order since she should have been a forsaken before infiltrating the Scarlet Monastery, but I suppose it was a decent effort at covering both her transition to a forsaken, and her infiltration of both places.
She has one of the better stories in WoW (at least in my opinion) and they really didn't do it justice last time around when they gave her a burgle ability that didn't have any link to her character (Lilian Voss), so I am happy to see a story driven card design. It might not be flashy mechanically, but it does still have the unique ability to attack on your opponent's turn, and reminds me a little of Dart Trap.
With all that in mind, this card was always going to be a legendary simply because the card is Lilian Voss, and not some unnamed character.
Well I'd hope it could never have been hunter/DH because hunter is supposed to be bad at AoE, regardless of what minions come along with it. I agree it could have been perfectly fitting as a warlock/DH card, but it is equally sensible as a pure DH card.
It looks a pretty tame effect for a legendary, but upon realising she can attack on your opponent's turn if they kill her, which I cannot recall happening with any other card, it does have some uniqueness to it. It also signals deathrattle synergy in rogue, which may change the assessment a bit.
Warriors have high attack weapons by default, and rogue has Deadly Poison and the added reliability of having a weapon on command. Traditionally warrior would make better use of it, but we've had rogue using 15+ attack weapons before so who knows for sure. I kind of hope the other rogue/warrior cards don't let them take each other's approach to this, because I think dual-class cards will be more interesting when the two classes have their own unique spin.
now its better, before u had to wait a week with nothing. this time its all done fast, no need to be in a waiting room.
We still had to wait a week after the initial announcement, and we'll still have to wait a week after the reveals finish, so nothing is different there.
Anyway, it is not as easy as it might seem to compare long and short reveal seasons, because to do that fairly you have to compare hype and boredom levels throughout the entire month before release (including before anything is announced at all), which need to factor in how enjoyable the preceding meta is. Certainly it is easy to forget how anxious people were to hear something - anything - when reveals get going.
On average I'm sure people will prefer the coming week over the old slower reveals, and will use that to argue that they prefer shorter reveals. BUT on average they also disliked the previous weeks more, so that it cancels out when you account for everything. Slow(-ish) and steady wins the race for me, but it's all personal preference and it makes next to no difference when the set is released.
I don't like Regis because he gives me Ben Brode vibes and he is not Ben Brode let's face it.
He isn't in any way trying to be Ben Brode so there's nothing to face there. I'm also not sure whether you dislike the fact you personally get Brode vibes from him, or whether you dislike that he has the audacity to not be Ben Brode.
A good question, and it can be asked alongside Volatile Elemental. They are good comparisons with Lilian, and fortunately the main differences with the trusty old Boom Bot are very similar.
Clearly having a 7/7 Dr. Boom is good in its own right, but by forcing the opponent's attention onto it, the lowly Boom Bots often get to attack. This lets them take advantage of Hearthstone's mechanics favouring the attacker, just like stealth does for Lilian. Meanwhile the Kaboom Bot and Volatile Elemental don't have this luxury: they are low statted for their cost and easily picked off, letting the opponent take advantage of being the attacker instead, and giving them more control over what the deathrattle hits.
The second reason is more subjective: whether it is beneficial to be able to hit the opponent's face or not. I would argue that for this type of effect it is, because these minions are often killed when there are no minions of your opponent's side of the board. When that happens, Kaboom Bot is just a 3 mana 2/2, but a Boom Bot will at least guarantee some face damage. In a wider sense, being able to hit the face means you are guaranteed to do something beneficial. On certain board states it might be the worst outcome, but at least you cannot whiff completely.
It is worth noting that on both of these matters Lilian is undoubtedly the strongest of them. After charge, and often but not always rush (note rush<stealth if the opponent has no minons), stealth is the best tool minions have to ensure they take advantage of attacking. And if Lilian attacks the face, you are left with a minion.
If you want to take aim at Demon Hunter's class identity, as your thread title suggests, then go right ahead. The class' main problem in my eyes is that it is designed to be excellent at all the basics, meaning it has no serious weaknesses, and now making them kings of disruption as well is going to be problematic.
But, that's not what you are doing here. You are making assumptions about the power levels of cards before seeing them in action, and letting those assumptions fuel anger before anyone can actually verify them. Of course the reveal season is all about making assumptions and projecting that forwards, but countless times people (and often the entire community) have called cards that end up seeing no play OP, or called some of the most notorious cards in the entire game trash.
You may well be right in your assessments and do not need to give Blizzard a penny, but you can still show some patience here because if experience of reveal seasons tells us anything, it is that you cannot trust your early assessments.
I won't engage in a discussion over all the cards you bring up, but I will wade in regarding Infiltrator Lilian to make a point. Your comparison to Piloted Shredder is appropriate, so let's break down that comparison and leave Kobold Barbarian out of it.
So all put together, Infiltrator Lilian is usually better than Piloted Shredder on all fronts. At the very worst then it is a solid card, and nowhere near the pits in which Kobold Librarian lives.
You could also compare it to a Boom Bot, with the deathrattle always dealing 4 damage and possibly leaving a body behind too. Because the Boom Bot isn't a collectible card it is silly to read much into this, but keep in mind Boom Bots were always taken seriously and made Dr. Boom the first infamous card for good reason.
That's just how warlock works in wild though right?
Agreed. I think people underestimate how important cheap card can be in the mid-to-late game.
Secret Passage is very cool. I wonder how it works with cards drawn and generated. Whether they are kept or shuffled back is vital information for a class with lots of both.
It'll all end in tears, not because the mechanic is necessarily that powerful, but because the past has told us several times that a deck that is frustrating to play against is considered more problematic than an overly powerful one (i'm looking at you Big Priest and OG Quest Rogue).
It should do. Sending minions 'backwards' (board -> hand -> deck) always resets them to their base versions unless they are explicitly put there with a buff.
Lore on him can be found here: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Doctor_Theolen_Krastinov
Going into this expansion a few people were expecting him to be too dark for HS, which I'd guess is why his card doesn't bare much resemblance to his Warcraft lore. I suppose he carries melee weapons (meat cleavers), which I guess qualifies him to be the teacher of the rogue/warrior class pair?
I'd be surprised if Kel'Thuzad tried too hard to find a teacher for an almost magic-less dual class, and to his eyes all melee weapons are crude wastes of time. Yes, that is now my head-canon: Krastinov was ordered to teach rogue/warriors for no better reason than that KT doesn't know/appreciate the difference between a meat cleaver and a sword.
It's difficult to see from the art, but perhaps the bow doubles as a DH glaive?
I was playing rogue against priest, and I regretted my choice when my opponent discovered and played Tess Greymane. When I top-decked Gang Up and eventually drew multiple Tess's of my own, the priest regretted their choice even more.
My point was that since the effect was tied to the character, it would not have appeared on a rare or epic simply because it was tailor made for a legendary character. I expect the card design process was:
I.e. the rarity came before the effect. Or said the another way: by the time the effect was chosen, no other rarity was an option.
I'll stop going around in circles now...
I agree stealth and rush can function similarly, but stealth is in practice closer to charge than it is to rush, and it is often right to attack the opponent's face. When you are playing the aggressor like that, your opponent will have to kill the unstealthed 4/2 sooner or later, so I think it will attack fairly often on your opponent's turn.
It is a fairly similar difficulty to activate for both classes too, since they both have hero powers and many cards (including lifesteal in both classes) that will activate it, so I like it. In fact, I think it is a clever way of getting 1 card to push 2 very different decks, which is great for diversity.
Because the card was designed to tell Lilian Voss's story, so it couldn't be anything other than a legendary. Besides, the fast attack of the deathrattle, especially on your opponent's turn, is unique enough that I expect she'll be more interesting to play with and around than she looks.
Because Lilian Voss is a fairly major lore character, who infiltrates the Scarlet Monastery (hence her clothes in the art), kills High Inquisitor Whitemane, and afterwards infiltrates Scholomace, it is clear they were going with a top-down, story-telling design for her card. Granted the story seems a little out of order since she should have been a forsaken before infiltrating the Scarlet Monastery, but I suppose it was a decent effort at covering both her transition to a forsaken, and her infiltration of both places.
She has one of the better stories in WoW (at least in my opinion) and they really didn't do it justice last time around when they gave her a burgle ability that didn't have any link to her character (Lilian Voss), so I am happy to see a story driven card design. It might not be flashy mechanically, but it does still have the unique ability to attack on your opponent's turn, and reminds me a little of Dart Trap.
With all that in mind, this card was always going to be a legendary simply because the card is Lilian Voss, and not some unnamed character.
Well I'd hope it could never have been hunter/DH because hunter is supposed to be bad at AoE, regardless of what minions come along with it. I agree it could have been perfectly fitting as a warlock/DH card, but it is equally sensible as a pure DH card.
What makes you think it should be a dual class card? I am anticipating 6 non-dual cards per class, and 11 in DH.
It looks a pretty tame effect for a legendary, but upon realising she can attack on your opponent's turn if they kill her, which I cannot recall happening with any other card, it does have some uniqueness to it. It also signals deathrattle synergy in rogue, which may change the assessment a bit.
Warriors have high attack weapons by default, and rogue has Deadly Poison and the added reliability of having a weapon on command. Traditionally warrior would make better use of it, but we've had rogue using 15+ attack weapons before so who knows for sure. I kind of hope the other rogue/warrior cards don't let them take each other's approach to this, because I think dual-class cards will be more interesting when the two classes have their own unique spin.
We still had to wait a week after the initial announcement, and we'll still have to wait a week after the reveals finish, so nothing is different there.
Anyway, it is not as easy as it might seem to compare long and short reveal seasons, because to do that fairly you have to compare hype and boredom levels throughout the entire month before release (including before anything is announced at all), which need to factor in how enjoyable the preceding meta is. Certainly it is easy to forget how anxious people were to hear something - anything - when reveals get going.
On average I'm sure people will prefer the coming week over the old slower reveals, and will use that to argue that they prefer shorter reveals. BUT on average they also disliked the previous weeks more, so that it cancels out when you account for everything. Slow(-ish) and steady wins the race for me, but it's all personal preference and it makes next to no difference when the set is released.
He isn't in any way trying to be Ben Brode so there's nothing to face there. I'm also not sure whether you dislike the fact you personally get Brode vibes from him, or whether you dislike that he has the audacity to not be Ben Brode.