Just a small tip: Labs is currently PvE and is not that hard. The thing is that you get your daily PvP bonus from winning those games, so it's a easy way to get some extra XP if you don't feel like playing vs other players.
It amounts to 800 XP (1st win), 400 XP (2nd win) etc. on your road maps (with the 50 % boost).
I agree with FortyDust. Invoke does have elements of RNG it but the RNG can be controlled. E.g. decks that relies on champions to be drown tend to use Solari Priestess because there is a fairly high chance you'll get Written in Stars. And I think it is balanced by the fact that most of spells are "slow". The only time celestial cards gets out of hand is with an upgraded Asol and Living Legends. But that is hardly consistent enough to warrent a nerf.
So the celestials is no where near Hearthstone's level of RNG where Rogues, Priest and what not can generate cards from other classes. Things can happen and cards like Behold the Infinite and Lunari Priestess, who has access to the entire pool of celestial cards, can cause moments of: "oh you just had to get that card". But again I think it is fairly balanced because it is not consistent.
The overall weakness of the deck (primary the Ionia/Targon version) is that you have to draw him
The win rate of the deck begs to differ. It's an extremely, extremely consistent deck, which would not be the case if it relied on drawing Lee Sin naturally. Solari Priestess has a 50-50 shot at pulling Written in Stars, so drawing him is usually not difficult at all.
Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I believe this blunder is far worse than any balance snafu we ever saw in Hearthstone.
I am not that worried to be honest. If the deck becomes too problematic, the meta will probably adjust to find a way to counter it. Lee Sin seems very prone to Frejjord removal and Frostbite. Other Targon decks could rise as Lee Sin also seems prone to Hush and Bastion. I have also been succesful against the Targon/Ionia version with hard aggro. So I don't think he will be broken.
I might be wrong on this and if he gets too problematic I am sure Riot will adjust him accordingly - as they have done with other champions (e.g. they adjusted Braum pretty quickly after his initial buff to 1/5). Regardless, I just think that people should adjust their tactics instead of calling for nerfs right off the bat.
Lee Sin seems very strong when you have the right cards around him - and especielly if he is played on curve and isn't dealt with immediately. The overall weakness of the deck (primary the Ionia/Targon version) is that you have to draw him, and if he is removed right away you might be en trouble.
I don't think he is broken at all. But it is not the most difficult OTK.
Bilgewater could use a slight adjustment or other regions could use a buff. Riot has announced changes to Taric and Petty officier, so let's see what happens in the next patch.
With Riots policy on buffing and nerfing I am not that worried about a stagnant period.
On the downside it means that Cloud Drinker probably won't see play anymore.
Agreed, but I think that's more about Cloud Drinker being an incredibly weak card outside of very niche applications. Honestly, he could use a nerf-reversion back to being Enlightened: Reduce by 2 -- it made sense at the time, but with all these new Sol and Trundle control decks Karma could now use a little help.
I didn't even know it was nerfed - guess it was in the early beta? You are right though. 6 mana for at niche effect isunplayable unless the payoff is broken.
I heard of people who were stucked in ranked games for hours because the opponent kept spamming Hush. On the downside it means that Cloud Drinker probably won't see play anymore.
I've played a fair share of MF scouts which uses the Bannerman package. It's basically 3x MF (Bilgewater) and 37 demacia cards, and I've had my alligiance fail more than you'd think.
You seem to forget that Aurelion Sol is not always played on T10.
Freljord offers ramp and other decks pull him out with Thresh and keeps reviving him after that.
He can be played on t6-t10.
Taking your example, one could argue Tryndamere will do much more work then Aurelion Sol ever would because Aurelion doesn't have Overwhelm and also Tryndamere is much harder to remove. And even if Aurelion Sol was cheated / played early, if he can level up before T10, then chances are you already lost the game anyway.
I am not implying that Aurelion Sol is broken or that it is a huge problem that you can cheat him out by t6-t10. I just wanted to point out it was missing in his analysis since he wrote: "Aurelion Sol is played on T10 and if his conditions are met, he levels up after THE END OF THE TURN. So best case possible, the player may only play Celestials cards for free on T11 forward. It usually finish games by T11-T12." and I thought that was wrong since the majority of the decks that use him try to play him earlier than that.
Edit: and don't underestimate how difficult a 10/10 with spellshield can be to deal with for some decks.
In what ways do you think that LoR is based on swing plays? The only example of that I can think of is “They Who Endure” and maybe “Swain/Leviathan.” I do agree that in general there are relatively few removal options compared to the number of threats, but I think that makes gameplay interesting because your power cards don’t get removed the turn they are played. I’d love to hear your thought process because that problem wasn’t even really on my radar.
perhaps my juddgement is still based on outdated information, but when I played it for a while when it first came out I got into these situations of "my opponent plays a snowballing a threat and I have an answer. They have a counter to that answer. I can never get rid of that threat and will therefore lose. What was I even supposed to do there?" way too often.
Even just simple things like a Garen or a Greenglade Duo. The problem I have with LoR is how easy it is to protect your own stuff vs killing your opponent's stuff. It's what made me return to Hearthstone afterwards, because in Hearthstone there used to be this unspoken rule of "there's always an answer to everything (usually)". Now that's basically gone from HS as well.
Maybe things have changed since I left, but looking at all that Targon stuff I just don't think so. I just don't like playing a game where I rely on one or two cards to answer certain threats, but said cards are easily countered by 3 more cards in my opponent's deck. It also doesn't help tht the nexus total is only 20 so coming back when behind just isn't as likely...not to mention that card draw is sparse in most decks so digging for answers is rarely an option.
I'd say your judgement is outdated. There are plenty of tools to kill stuff on the board and help you progress to the late game (if that's your plan). In Runeterra it doesn't come down to spells only. You can challenge, force blocks, stun and so on.
@OT I quit Hearthstone before the release of this expansion and haven't looked back since. My biggest thing about Hearthstone is that you either have to play a lot or spent a lot of money to have a big collection. And buying e.g. 50 packs for way too much money can end up giving you absolutely nothing of value for your collection.
To me Runeterra is much more fair, and while I have spent a bit of money to start my collection, it has not been nescessary for me to buy anything to have a almost full collection after the new expansion was released.
I reached Masters during the season of plunder, and sure it was a grind but it was ok. The tier before masters is always meta decks and a few people trying to think outside the box. Either you like it or you don't.
If you want to play janky decks and have fun then play Gauntlet/labs and normal.
I am torn on the whole celestial package Riot has added to the game. To me it seems a bit overtuned but it might get worse if the meta gets more aggressive. However, I think that Freljord and Targon has enough tools (board clears, heals, buffs) to adjust to an aggressive meta.
My issue with the Invoke mechanic is that I get a "Hearthstone vibe" from it. Mirrors often comes down to who gets the most relevant cards and who levels up Aurelion Sol first, and if you get the "fill your hand with celestials"-card it is pretty much gg as you easily can play 60 worth of mana in a turn.
I am not saying it is completely random: there is skill to it. How to play around the Spell shield, setting up the board, baiting for a super nova etc. but I just don't like that the mirrors are mostly about who draws Aurolion Sol first, and if he is removed: do you have a second copy?
It can be fun as hell to play with because there are a lot of over-the-top plays you can make.
What was your exact hypothesis? If you are talking about scientific methods, then you work on proving a single hypothesis.
Freljord is the best region in the game
Freljord will be present in the meta
Freljord is strong in a midrange meta
Freljord can support other regions very well
As for occurrence, based on mobalytics, Freljord has a place in 5 decks in Tier S to A. So does Ionia, Noxus and Bilgewater. As for the 5 Freljord decks only one deck used Frostbite cards other than Sejuanis effect - and is that why you state frostbite is strong? In that case your conclusion must be that AoE Frostbite is strong when it's cheap to tricker (Winter’s breath is not a card that sees much play) as there is only 1 list that uses actual frostbite cards.
Also, most of Tier A-S decks use a select group of Freljord card while the other regions (Bilgewater, Noxus etc.) composes most of the deck. So, it seems the conclusion rather is: "A pool of Freljord cards has strong synergy with a midrange deck type because it allows for favorable trades."
I do not know the history of your previous statements and what answers you got. It just seems to me that you rushed your conclusion to prove you were right. If you want to use the "scientific hypothesis" argument then you must provide a clear hypothesis, arguments and results to support it.
I can't see why this would be a bug when it is stated that it triggers on enemy minions. It would be bugged if Grasp of the Undying caused the keg to explode when you targeted your own minion.
I don't think the card is broken but in some matchups it can seem unfair. If they are to nerf the card they should make it fast instead of burst, so all factions has a chance to respond to it.
I've been playing Hearthstone since Pre-Naxx and spent way more money on it than I'd like to admit. Then I played LoR for a week and it killed Hearthstone for me in an instant. And since the mobile launch LoR has really gained some attention where people love the simple but yet complex playstyle (and less RNG if they joined from Hearthstone).
I've faced the deck a few times and don't think it is that much of an issue. Sure, it can be strong if you don't have a counter but honestly it's quite easy to overhwelm the deck. And if you don't draw Fiora early enough or lose her for some reason the deck struggles a lot.
The deck gets demolished by burn, Yasao can be a pain in the ass for her as they can deny or stun her, Deep decks can obliterate her and so on. However, against certain decks the combo can be unfair and unforgiving.
Just a small tip: Labs is currently PvE and is not that hard. The thing is that you get your daily PvP bonus from winning those games, so it's a easy way to get some extra XP if you don't feel like playing vs other players.
It amounts to 800 XP (1st win), 400 XP (2nd win) etc. on your road maps (with the 50 % boost).
I agree with FortyDust. Invoke does have elements of RNG it but the RNG can be controlled. E.g. decks that relies on champions to be drown tend to use Solari Priestess because there is a fairly high chance you'll get Written in Stars. And I think it is balanced by the fact that most of spells are "slow". The only time celestial cards gets out of hand is with an upgraded Asol and Living Legends. But that is hardly consistent enough to warrent a nerf.
So the celestials is no where near Hearthstone's level of RNG where Rogues, Priest and what not can generate cards from other classes. Things can happen and cards like Behold the Infinite and Lunari Priestess, who has access to the entire pool of celestial cards, can cause moments of: "oh you just had to get that card". But again I think it is fairly balanced because it is not consistent.
I am not that worried to be honest. If the deck becomes too problematic, the meta will probably adjust to find a way to counter it. Lee Sin seems very prone to Frejjord removal and Frostbite. Other Targon decks could rise as Lee Sin also seems prone to Hush and Bastion. I have also been succesful against the Targon/Ionia version with hard aggro. So I don't think he will be broken.
I might be wrong on this and if he gets too problematic I am sure Riot will adjust him accordingly - as they have done with other champions (e.g. they adjusted Braum pretty quickly after his initial buff to 1/5). Regardless, I just think that people should adjust their tactics instead of calling for nerfs right off the bat.
Lee Sin seems very strong when you have the right cards around him - and especielly if he is played on curve and isn't dealt with immediately. The overall weakness of the deck (primary the Ionia/Targon version) is that you have to draw him, and if he is removed right away you might be en trouble.
I don't think he is broken at all. But it is not the most difficult OTK.
Bilgewater could use a slight adjustment or other regions could use a buff. Riot has announced changes to Taric and Petty officier, so let's see what happens in the next patch.
With Riots policy on buffing and nerfing I am not that worried about a stagnant period.
I didn't even know it was nerfed - guess it was in the early beta? You are right though. 6 mana for at niche effect isunplayable unless the payoff is broken.
Great fix!
I heard of people who were stucked in ranked games for hours because the opponent kept spamming Hush. On the downside it means that Cloud Drinker probably won't see play anymore.
This is a significant point.
I've played a fair share of MF scouts which uses the Bannerman package. It's basically 3x MF (Bilgewater) and 37 demacia cards, and I've had my alligiance fail more than you'd think.
I am not implying that Aurelion Sol is broken or that it is a huge problem that you can cheat him out by t6-t10. I just wanted to point out it was missing in his analysis since he wrote: "Aurelion Sol is played on T10 and if his conditions are met, he levels up after THE END OF THE TURN. So best case possible, the player may only play Celestials cards for free on T11 forward. It usually finish games by T11-T12." and I thought that was wrong since the majority of the decks that use him try to play him earlier than that.
Edit: and don't underestimate how difficult a 10/10 with spellshield can be to deal with for some decks.
You seem to forget that Aurelion Sol is not always played on T10.
Freljord offers ramp and other decks pull him out with Thresh and keeps reviving him after that.
He can be played on t6-t10.
I'd say your judgement is outdated. There are plenty of tools to kill stuff on the board and help you progress to the late game (if that's your plan). In Runeterra it doesn't come down to spells only. You can challenge, force blocks, stun and so on.
@OT
I quit Hearthstone before the release of this expansion and haven't looked back since. My biggest thing about Hearthstone is that you either have to play a lot or spent a lot of money to have a big collection. And buying e.g. 50 packs for way too much money can end up giving you absolutely nothing of value for your collection.
To me Runeterra is much more fair, and while I have spent a bit of money to start my collection, it has not been nescessary for me to buy anything to have a almost full collection after the new expansion was released.
I reached Masters during the season of plunder, and sure it was a grind but it was ok. The tier before masters is always meta decks and a few people trying to think outside the box. Either you like it or you don't.
If you want to play janky decks and have fun then play Gauntlet/labs and normal.
I am torn on the whole celestial package Riot has added to the game. To me it seems a bit overtuned but it might get worse if the meta gets more aggressive. However, I think that Freljord and Targon has enough tools (board clears, heals, buffs) to adjust to an aggressive meta.
My issue with the Invoke mechanic is that I get a "Hearthstone vibe" from it. Mirrors often comes down to who gets the most relevant cards and who levels up Aurelion Sol first, and if you get the "fill your hand with celestials"-card it is pretty much gg as you easily can play 60 worth of mana in a turn.
I am not saying it is completely random: there is skill to it. How to play around the Spell shield, setting up the board, baiting for a super nova etc. but I just don't like that the mirrors are mostly about who draws Aurolion Sol first, and if he is removed: do you have a second copy?
It can be fun as hell to play with because there are a lot of over-the-top plays you can make.
I guess a large part of it is knowing your matchups and regions, and using that information to deduce which cards would punish you.
What was your exact hypothesis? If you are talking about scientific methods, then you work on proving a single hypothesis.
As for occurrence, based on mobalytics, Freljord has a place in 5 decks in Tier S to A. So does Ionia, Noxus and Bilgewater. As for the 5 Freljord decks only one deck used Frostbite cards other than Sejuanis effect - and is that why you state frostbite is strong? In that case your conclusion must be that AoE Frostbite is strong when it's cheap to tricker (Winter’s breath is not a card that sees much play) as there is only 1 list that uses actual frostbite cards.
Also, most of Tier A-S decks use a select group of Freljord card while the other regions (Bilgewater, Noxus etc.) composes most of the deck. So, it seems the conclusion rather is: "A pool of Freljord cards has strong synergy with a midrange deck type because it allows for favorable trades."
I do not know the history of your previous statements and what answers you got. It just seems to me that you rushed your conclusion to prove you were right. If you want to use the "scientific hypothesis" argument then you must provide a clear hypothesis, arguments and results to support it.
That is way too slow. You can get lucky but wasting mana on stealing cards is not the way to go.
I can't see why this would be a bug when it is stated that it triggers on enemy minions. It would be bugged if Grasp of the Undying caused the keg to explode when you targeted your own minion.
I don't think the card is broken but in some matchups it can seem unfair. If they are to nerf the card they should make it fast instead of burst, so all factions has a chance to respond to it.
This.
I've been playing Hearthstone since Pre-Naxx and spent way more money on it than I'd like to admit. Then I played LoR for a week and it killed Hearthstone for me in an instant. And since the mobile launch LoR has really gained some attention where people love the simple but yet complex playstyle (and less RNG if they joined from Hearthstone).
It's gonna be tough for artifact 2.0
I've faced the deck a few times and don't think it is that much of an issue. Sure, it can be strong if you don't have a counter but honestly it's quite easy to overhwelm the deck. And if you don't draw Fiora early enough or lose her for some reason the deck struggles a lot.
The deck gets demolished by burn, Yasao can be a pain in the ass for her as they can deny or stun her, Deep decks can obliterate her and so on. However, against certain decks the combo can be unfair and unforgiving.