After a rather calm weekend, the Murder at Castle Nathria reveal season has resumed. During the last hours, we received all the remaining Rogue cards we were still missing to see: Secrets are back for Valeera, together with a Legendary unit with a very original effect in Halkias.
However, one of the aforementioned Rogue Secret cards raised some questions among the community members: in particular, we're talking about Kidnap.
Maybe it's because of the unclear text, maybe because Team 5 doesn't have infinite space to write a card's effect, but there's no denying that Kidnap doesn't have the clearest effect to ever see the light of the tavern.
Fortunately for all of us, Hearthstone Game Designers Cora "Songbird" Georgiou and Leo Robles swiftly provided some insights regarding how this Secret works, as well as some interactions with other existing mechanics.
First of all, let's talk about what exactly happen when Kidnap triggers:
- Your opponent plays a minion.
- Kidnap triggers and the played minion goes into a 0/4 Kidnapper's Sack summoned on the Rogue's side of the board.
- If you manage to destroy the 0/4 Kidnapper's Sack, the kidnapped minion will return to the original owner's hand.
- If the Rogue's side of the board is already full, Kidnap won't trigger (just like it happens with other summoning Secrets like Oasis Ally or Netherwind Portal).
Quote From Songbird Rogue plays Kidnap.
Paladin plays Stewart the Steward.
Stewart gets put into the Kidnapper's Sack and Sack is summoned on Rogue side of the board.
Paladin kills 0/4 Kidnapper's Sack.
Stewart goes back to Paladin's hand.
What happens if the Rogue’s board is full? Does the minion disappear, instantly go back into hand or does the Secret just not trigger?
If your board (as the Rogue player) is full, Kidnap will not trigger.
Now that we have cleared how Kidnap usually works, there are a few interactions you should be aware of. First of all, minion that return to your hand after you pop the Kidnapper's Sack will retain their buffs.
Quote From Songbird "Stewart? Where did your hand buffs go?"
Minions do actually retain buffs when they're returned to the players hand from the Sack.
But how does that work precisely? Leo Robles points out that the returned minion won't retain mana cost discounts or increases; however, it is safe to assume that stats buffs (like the ones you receive from Alliance Bannerman or Conditioning (Rank 1)) won't go away.
Quote From Leo Robles Minions keep buffs? Well that's interesting. I guess this also applies to enchantments such as Switcheroo health switches, Far Watch Post cost increases & cost reductions?
Cost changes: no. Cost changes are deleted when a minion enters play as to not mess with Evolve-like effects (Leper Gnome should cost 1 when on the board, even if it somehow costed 10 when played).
Additionally, there's the Battlecry question: does Kidnap allow the minion's Battlecry to resolve or does the unit get kidnapped before? This Secret's text states "After", meaning that the effect should let the unit use its Battlecry and then kidnap it. Not only this sequence is confirmed by the tweet you see below, but it is also consistent with other Secrets from the past like Explosive Runes, Snipe and Mirror Entity.
Quote From Leo Robles So how do Battlecries work when they are stuffed in the sack? @hsdecktech or @MyntyPhresh
This Secret says "After", so it waits for anything like Battlecries to resolve before this triggers.
Last but not least, what about Colossal minions? What will happen? It's simple: just like for Battlecries, Kidnap will trigger only after each appendage is summoned, meaning that you'll have a "headless" Colossal on your side of the board, but with the appendages ready to work as usual.
Quote From Songbird What about the appendages of Colossal minions?
The appendages are summoned before the base minion gets put into the Sack because this is on "After" timing rather than "Whenever" timing.
What do you think about this card? Do you think it will see any play? Let us know in the comments below!
Comments
I'm surprised the card retains buffs upon return to hand. Is there any precedent for this? I thought this was Sap with an extra step but this changes things.
Every rule of this card should be available both in the deckbuilder and in-game.
I don't disagree, but that's never been the case before with creatively-worded cards. Some things in Hearthstone require you to figure it out ahead of time (or through trial and error), and I'm actually okay with that.
a) The wording isn't creative imo and b) people have complained about this since beta, noting freeze and windfury. They have solutions to this problem (mouseover) and creative use of that solution has been praised. They're doing a deliberately bad job here where they could do better by the team's own past standards.
How is the wording not creative? It's unique among all other Hearthstone cards, much like Mankrik.
But it also doesn't do anything surprising or unprecedented - their detailed explanation only confirmed exactly how I thought the card would work, with the exception of returning to the minion to hand instead of the board. But that detail will be on the card text (or mouseover text) of the Sack itself. In the same way that Ysera didn't explain what each of the Dream Card options were until you played it and earned them, multi-step cards have never explained everything past the first step. Why should that magically change now?
If your job is to communicate clearly and you don't do that job, but you produce a beautiful painting, you may be a good painter, but you're a crap communicator and didn't do your job. It isn't creative that they did their job badly; they may have been creative doing something other than their job (I don't agree, but ymmv) but still, the job didn't get done.
The card literally doesn't explain itself and is so ambiguous that the designers had to give it a FAQ before it's even released. Its entire outcome is "surprising and unprecedented" because no one knew even remotely what it must do just from card text. The fact that you guessed it correctly is of no moment -- good for you I guess? I've guessed HS cards correctly and that doesn't make ambiguity better. Further, the point here is that this card and cards like it don't solve their issues with mouseover text. Ysera is a bizarre example to use because people criticized that card even in beta and still do, so you're undermining your own case, and people have been satisfied with Hero cards that use mouseover text appropriately, so the job can be done correctly. HS has done better in the past and is now commiting to doing worst going forward.
Their job isn't to communicate clearly - their job is to create a fun experience. This card does that for me, so it's a huge success. It doesn't for you, because I guess you dislike doing research or testing something to see how it works? Good for you, I guess? But I'd find Hearthstone a lot more boring if they had to spell out every single detail of every card. The fact that other people are pedantic about Ysera doesn't mean they're RIGHT about it... just that they want the game to be as boring as you do.
You're entitled to your opinion, but you certainly haven't convinced me that there's a single benefit to what you're asking for.
That's an utterly bizarre formulation. Clear communication makes for a fun experience. Board games have been made sources of acrimony because of ambiguity. There are several decades of imperfect experiences due to poor writing in games -- you can check a D&D forum or M:tG forum right now and find that out, instantly. Clarity in language is like clear pricing or good art -- just another element of making a good experience. Declaring them opposites is like saying good health is the opposite of a fun vacation.
What? I have no idea where you're coming from, like, at all, or how you got there from what I wrote. First of, experimentation doesn't solve all information problems and sometimes cannot solve them and isn't truly possible. Second, poor communication can interfere with otherwise really good games where both players are having fun engaging with known rules. By your logic, bugs are good because they're unexpected and can be experimented with. I literally pointed out that many people were concerned about communication since beta, including concerned about even cards like Ysera, and impressed with cards like the modern hero cards. How would your anti-experimentation thesis apply to the multitudes who were thereby concerned? I'm just really confused by that.
What are you on about? No one's being pedantic about Ysera. This is a communication issue that even Ben Brode admitted was a problem! Y'know, the original lead designer? They were toying with solutions for years on this. The term "pedantry" doesn't even make sense in this context. No one is fighting over mere word choice here, but discussing forseeable behaviors in complex game states. Pedantry just seems like an inflammatory thowaway term.
Oh. It was inflammatory because you were doing your best to be mean-spirited and uncivil.
You don't believe that, otherwise you wouldn't have lashed out because we had a difference of opinion. It's clear you didn't want to read what I wrote and became upset. Just keep in mind that just because people have a different experience from you doesn't mean they're attacking you. Hopefully you have a better day.
When did I suggest you're attacking me? You're the one who defensively quoted my quite relaxed reply as if it was filled with insults. Suggesting you want the game to be more boring is an interpretation of your position, not a personal insult - I'm critiquing your position, not you yourself.
I really honestly suggest you try having more fun and getting less furious about card wording. "Stuff it in a sack" is intended to be whimsical. And now that you understand the implications of the card, the wording shouldn't negatively impact you. Have fun, and see you in the Tavern! (where I will NOT be playing Rogue - XL Highlander decks for me!)
Seemed like you were attacking the thousands upon thousands of people who want the game to be clearer not just for themselves, but for new players and casual players. And those players deserve the best they can be given; I think you reduced the issue to "me and you" but it's really about more than just the aesthetics you favor. Nevertheless, I'm hopeful that feedback will encourage better results in the future and we've seen good results before, both with hero cards and even pricing. I sincerely do hope you enjoy the game and don't get yourself bent out of shape by people who are working towards giving the game good feedback. Not everyone's trying to make you unhappy just because they're making the game better for others!
Now I have to set up several decks to play on day 1 before it becomes a Druid/DH/Hunter extravaganza. I'm almost scared by how good my non-jank DH decks are going to be and I have to give weenie DH another go. Later.
Guys, I think this conversation is not going to bring us anywhere meaningful.
I suggest you both move on!
What will happen when you take control over Sack and then destroy it?
Probably an obvious answer, but I'm assuming deathrattles won't get triggered when the minion is sacked?
That's my assumption. The secret doesn't kill the minion, it moves it to the Rogue side of the board.
There will be only two rogue secrets in standard right now? Then it is quite easy to guess, I guess.
Three, but yeah. Easier to test for them.
very self damaging secret ... in most of cases will give a spare battlecry to your opponent
Spare battlecry for a full minion cost and tempo loss. Sooooo... most of the time it is OK
This secret is fine before you'll knew about battlecry part.
Man, the fact that the battlecry and colossal's trigger first followed by the sack means this secret is actually far far worse than I'd imagine.
So you play this secret, your opponent guesses correctly and completely arse you over by playing one of their key battlecry minions and then get a chance to play it again. Imagine playing Sira'kess Cultist or Za'qul into this, break the sack and then playing it again. Its almost like assisted suicide.
I really dont understand why didn't they just make it 'when' instead of 'after'. The whole point of this secret is as some kind of pseudo-counterspell for minions. Now its just likely to be nothing more than a liability half the time, and the other half it'll just stuff a 1 drop or some other useless minion into the sack. What is this card even supposed to be doing?
Let's hope things go better for secret rogue in the midset, because Sticky Situation cannot hold up the entire archetype on its own.