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Hearthstone | Posted by | 5 years, 3 months ago
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Anyone else feel this way?

 

Now druid is one of my favorite classes, and i enjoy playing control/combo. But this just makes it so boring and unfun to watch and play. Just to mention it's the same with every Aviana-Kun the Forgotten King deck. Draw a bunch of shit with Juicy Psychmelon, play Jepetto Joybuzz, win the game against your priest opponent who has an autofill deck, just installed hearthstone and hasn't played a single minion all game and by the way he's only on 6 mana. It's not interesting. Especially since druid has so many options for combos. 

I still remember danehs' kael'thas malygos druid.

 
It was so clever, he cheated out malygos with the side quest Strength in Numbers And killed his raza priest opponent on turn 5.
This kind of innovation for combo is GREAT in this game. But what do we get every expansion. Aviana-Kun the Forgotten King, where people replace the win condition as easily as changing a lightbulb. 
 
I remember day9's rant about jade druid, where it wasn't as much of a complaint about jade cards, but more about how lazy and unintuitive it is. And i think hearthstone is a major sink for this. So many things are seen as lazy and with no effort which other games are covering this aspect better. The "larger man" argument could literally be made against libram paladin with Libram of Wisdom, but whenever you try to bring up the deck is for the equivalent of putting the round block into the hole every turn people get mad at you. And this isn't your typical "Aggro is braindead they only play cards when they're green" Thread, it's every archetype. "This just play shit" mentality has leaked it's way into every form of hearthstone lately. Want to play singleton control but don't know what to play just put in Siamat it's a card that is literally made to be auto include so people buy more packs. Want to play combos, just play the same cards in every combo deck. Druid Aviana, Kun the Forgotten King,Juicy Psychmelon, and Jepetto Joybuzz. Shaman play Corrupt the Waters(with Tour Guide), Questing Explorer, Doppelgangster, Grumble, Worldshaker, Shudderwock. Combo in mage play Open the Waygate, and Archmage Vargoth
 
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    Now druid is one of my favorite classes, and i enjoy playing control/combo. But this just makes it so boring and unfun to watch and play. Just to mention it's the same with every Aviana-Kun the Forgotten King deck. Draw a bunch of shit with Juicy Psychmelon, play Jepetto Joybuzz, win the game against your priest opponent who has an autofill deck, just installed hearthstone and hasn't played a single minion all game and by the way he's only on 6 mana. It's not interesting. Especially since druid has so many options for combos. 

    I still remember danehs' kael'thas malygos druid.

     
    It was so clever, he cheated out malygos with the side quest Strength in Numbers And killed his raza priest opponent on turn 5.
    This kind of innovation for combo is GREAT in this game. But what do we get every expansion. Aviana-Kun the Forgotten King, where people replace the win condition as easily as changing a lightbulb. 
     
    I remember day9's rant about jade druid, where it wasn't as much of a complaint about jade cards, but more about how lazy and unintuitive it is. And i think hearthstone is a major sink for this. So many things are seen as lazy and with no effort which other games are covering this aspect better. The "larger man" argument could literally be made against libram paladin with Libram of Wisdom, but whenever you try to bring up the deck is for the equivalent of putting the round block into the hole every turn people get mad at you. And this isn't your typical "Aggro is braindead they only play cards when they're green" Thread, it's every archetype. "This just play shit" mentality has leaked it's way into every form of hearthstone lately. Want to play singleton control but don't know what to play just put in Siamat it's a card that is literally made to be auto include so people buy more packs. Want to play combos, just play the same cards in every combo deck. Druid Aviana, Kun the Forgotten King,Juicy Psychmelon, and Jepetto Joybuzz. Shaman play Corrupt the Waters(with Tour Guide), Questing Explorer, Doppelgangster, Grumble, Worldshaker, Shudderwock. Combo in mage play Open the Waygate, and Archmage Vargoth
     
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  • I'm not saying there aren't still creative combos and decks being made. They're just few and farbetween because it's basically why bother.

     

    Why spend the 5 minutes making your own deck when HSreplay says this demon hunter has .1% more winrate than a different deck. 

     

    It might just be me being burned out of this game. And second thought it's definitely that. But this game isn't changing in my opinion. You won't see day9's rant about jade druid nowadays. It doesn't happen. I remember when aviana kun was nerfed for bein too consistent with psychmelon, and that did literally nothing to stop it from being the be all end all combo deck for druid. You'll notice if you've seen my combo decks for druid i don't use aviana kun and that's intentional. I shoot myself in the foot by doing it but it's better than winning but feeling like i didn't accomplish anything.

  • The issue at the heart of this is that Aviana + Kun isn't the combo so much as a way to circumvent the usual mana cap. Throw Ysiel Windsinger into the mix and you essentially have unlimited mana and your only limitation is what cards are available to druid.

    The only ways Aviana + Kun wouldn't be used are:

    1. it is difficult to set them up, and/or
    2. the combo can be done in 10 mana or less naturally (maybe 11 or 12 since Innervate has always been a thing).

    Obviously 1 isn't the case, and the game is always balanced around limiting the power of 10 mana combos, so option 2 is never the case either. So Wild combo druid will always gravitate to Aviana + Kun, and you cannot really change that without changing one of those cards or just adding another, easier way to get (effectively) infinite mana.

    The decks are made even more similar because all the cards involved in reaching the combo (draw, removal, stall, ramp) are just reused because they have long been optimised. This is true in every class, all of which have their own ways of doing it. And it's not just combo either; I'm so fed up of Warlock in Wild because every non-zoo deck has relied on Voidcallers and Bloodreaver Gul'dan for years.

    The only real solution is to play in Standard, where possible.

    • Quote From AngryShuckie

      The issue at the heart of this is that Aviana + Kun isn't the combo so much as a way to circumvent the usual mana cap. Throw Ysiel Windsinger into the mix and you essentially have unlimited mana and your only limitation is what cards are available to druid.

      The only ways Aviana + Kun wouldn't be used are:

      1. it is difficult to set them up, and/or
      2. the combo can be done in 10 mana or less naturally (maybe 11 or 12 since Innervate has always been a thing).

      Obviously 1 isn't the case, and the game is always balanced around limiting the power of 10 mana combos, so option 2 is never the case either. So Wild combo druid will always gravitate to Aviana + Kun, and you cannot really change that without changing one of those cards or just adding another, easier way to get (effectively) infinite mana.

      The decks are made even more similar because all the cards involved in reaching the combo (draw, removal, stall, ramp) are just reused because they have long been optimised. This is true in every class, all of which have their own ways of doing it. And it's not just combo either; I'm so fed up of Warlock in Wild because every non-zoo deck has relied on Voidcallers and Bloodreaver Gul'dan for years.

      The only real solution is to play in Standard, where possible.

      Yeah i say this for every archetype not just aviana kun, but i lead with that since it's the most well known. The thread is more about how braindead the game has become, even when the game was playing pit fighter on turn 5 you still had to think about that play and what your opponent would do against it.

       

      And it just feels like you didn't read the whole thing, and i should have used your void caller example for control with warlock missed that.

      • Quote From clawz161

        And it just feels like you didn't read the whole thing, and i should have used your void caller example for control with warlock missed that.

        I admit that was the case since I was rushing a bit to get on with other stuff. Sorry about that.

        I guess just as you used Aviana + Kun as a specific example of a wider problem, my analysis can be easily generalised to other Wild archetypes. Long story short, it is rare for new cards to be printed that seriously change the optimised toolkit used in Wild, and it is only going to get rarer as the Wild card pool increases in size. It is an inevitable feature of the Wild format when 'Spike' players are common.

        This is why I really want a rotating Wild game mode, kind of like Standard but switching more often and using sets from across the game's history. As Wild itself stagnates, this would give old cards more room to breathe and force players to come up with new strategies because their pool of cards is truly changing (even more than in Standard).

  • My question after reading this is: Why do you not just play Standard? Basically all the cards mentioned here are wild cards. No Aviana-Kun in Standard. In Wild there a couple of strong cards which will continue to show up. You can't do anything about it.

    • Quote From Thraxus

      My question after reading this is: Why do you not just play Standard? Basically all the cards mentioned here are wild cards. No Aviana-Kun in Standard. In Wild there a couple of strong cards which will continue to show up. You can't do anything about it.

       

      Quote From clawz161

      i enjoy playing control/combo.

  • Its unfortunate that while I do feel like hearthstone is more or less tugging players towards specific cards that are just too good not to include (like the Aviana-Kun combo, or [Hearthstone Card (bloodreaver guldan) Not Found] who seem to be in every warlock built bar none), good cards are included for good reasons, and that's because they're proven good cards. Who'd craft Ysiel Windsinger when the Aviana-Kun combo is already more efficient, and a readily available substitute in Kael-Thas is free.

    This is often a problem inherent with turn-based games. There's always a set of things you can do that's just more efficient than other things. The excitement of the game, at least to me, is not its unpredictability, but precisely the opposite. Its more skill testing to create something to beat something that everyone else is playing.

    The only thing that can change the use of 'always include' cards is to nerf/change them, powercreep on the existing cards in future expansions, or just straight up retire cards. But wild, as we know, is about as balanced as a fish flopping up a tightrope and pretty much left on its own, so if you're waiting for the day Aviana-Kun, or any of those 'always include' cards burn in hell you'd better be packing a few extra tons of popcorn.

    There is always a chance that the limited wild system gets introduced at some point so maybe we'd have a meta where Aviana and Kun aren't together forever, or you'd have Aviana and Kun but without Ultimate Infestation or Juicy Psychmelon. But ever since duels got introduced I've only the slimmest hope this will be a thing any time soon.

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