Hearthstone
That Sinking Feeling - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread
Submitted 2 years, 7 months ago by
ShadowsOfSense
Competition Theme: That Sinking Feeling
It's time to alter the depths in a different way - instead of taking, we'll give instead!
- You must create a card which puts something on the bottom of your deck
- Last week we were Dredging cards up - this week we're putting some stuff back!
- Your card cannot put a Sunken version of itself on the bottom
- Look to cards like Ambassador Faelin and Sir Finley, Sea Guide for examples of other things you could try!
BloodMefist has asked us to complement last week's theme - so start throwing some treasures into the depths of your decks!
As always, I can be reached through Discord or here on the site via PM if you have any issues to report.
Competition Phases
Here are the phases of this card design competition
- Submission Phase: Starts on Mon, May 2 17:00 EDT (GMT -0400). Runs until Sat, May 7 17:00 EDT (GMT -0400)
- Voting Phase: Starts on Sat, May 7 17:00 EDT (GMT -0400). Runs until Sun, May 8 16:00 EDT (GMT -0400)
- Finalist Phase: Starts on Sun, May 8 17:00 EDT (GMT -0400). Runs until Mon, May 9 17:00 EDT (GMT -0400)
- Winner Selected: After finalist voting concludes and we validate votes.
Discussion Thread Rules
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Competition Theme: That Sinking Feeling
It's time to alter the depths in a different way - instead of taking, we'll give instead!
BloodMefist has asked us to complement last week's theme - so start throwing some treasures into the depths of your decks!
As always, I can be reached through Discord or here on the site via PM if you have any issues to report.
Competition Phases
Here are the phases of this card design competition
Discussion Thread Rules
No thread rules were added to this season. Please populate and manually edit this thread with them.
Welcome to the site!
Heh, I had a new Time Traveler card I could retool for the competition. My first inclination is to say either Paladin or Warrior (and adjust the art and flavor accordingly).
First ideas.
I prefer That's Bait, but I'm not sure if it qualifies. You could say that, if your bottom card isn't a minion, it summons the "deepest" minion, but always puts the deceased one at the bottom... Maybe a bit convoluted, dunno.
Exploratory Mission is a Secret that provides more fuel for a deck, giving you a big Mech you can Dredge up or use in combination with Radar Detector. The idea of the flavor is that you spot an interesting looking minion, and send the sub to investigate.
It's The Big One! also provides fuel, but you have only 3 turns to catch the Beast before it escapes from your deck :D
Solve the puzzle and it will lead you to treasure! Ancient Relics are such a cool addition, it's a shame there's only one card that generates them.
I originally wanted to make it a Mage card, but some Ancient Relics are quite spell-oriented and since Mage's only Dredge card is for Mechs, I decided Priest works better.
(Still trying to find a better art, it's hard.)
Someone will definitely have to go to the main room to activate the shield mechanisms. Not him though, he's the one piloting.
It's mainly spired by Frozen Buckler, though with a few elements that I still feel that need some refining. It's "Drawn on Dredge" Mechanic means that you need someone to forcefully find it when you most need it without requiring to draw a card since... you have found it on the sinking submarine, what takes so long to push it anyways to save tens of lives? (yours, mainly)
If I can't find better art I'll just use a submarine, probably.
"From break and ruin, the most beautiful performance begins"
Hey everyone,
Been a while since I've entered a comp but I'm back! I've got two ideas at the moment:
Shadow Word: Drown - I'm not sure if this will count for the competition since it puts something on the bottom of your opponent's deck. I figured Bootstrap Sunkeneer was atleast in the spirit of the competition. Balance-wise its sort of a Star Student Stelina without the body, and x2 copies in a deck and would give priest a reliable way to delay other deck's strong turns.
Vengeful Retreat - A mix between Shadowstep and Grimoire of Sacrifice. Would let Demon hunter try to re-use some strong battlecries like Talented Arcanist or Coilskar Commander, but require a little bit of work (dredging, shuffling or tutoring) to do so.
Feedback:
Demonxz95 - I think shaman would be a good fit, obviously for the elemental tag but also they previously had Bog Slosher with a similar idea.
Wailor - I also prefer 'That's Bait' but you're right that it could be a bit confusing. Maybe uncoupling the effect would work? eg. "… Put it on the bottom of your deck and summon a Beast that costs more".
linkblade91 - I like It's the Big One, creates an interesting gameplay decision for the player - "can i afford to dredge for the minion this/next turn?".
AeroJulwin - This is a bit weird being a Priest weapon with an attack value. Maybe this would be better as a minion? or possibly 0-attack with some trigger to use durability.
LarryMoments - Emergency Defenses might be too swingy. Can range between nearly useless and 1 mana cloak of shadows. Making it a decent static value but cost a little more might make it a less polarized effect.
Some loose ideas. Recycler gives Spare Parts a payoff (I kind of wish HS was not restricted heavily towards 4 lines of text, though - would make for a spicier effect), while Kolrax makes Azari, the Devourer viable in modern HS.
"Truth is in the shadows, waiting to be revealed by the light. But light only disperses the shadow." - Me
"If other people shared traits of those considered naive, the world would've become a better place." - Also me
Here's my ideas for this week:
Sunken Fortune is self explanatory I think, I was thinking about making it shuffle the Coins in your opponent's deck and give you the coins when drawn instead, but I'm really not sure about it.
And Pressure Exchan'ge is supose to illustrate the idea of a sudden water pressure exchange which makes the minion "pop up", represented by the Deathrattle triggering.
Back feeding time:
Demon: I agree with Arkasaur, that card the way it is now screams Shaman for some reason, maybe the blue frame is influencing me a bit, thought I can see it fitting in a lot of others classes with the right adjustments, I don't think its necessary, but it is something to think about. And about the card itself, it's pretty neat!
Wailor: Dude, That's Bait is AMAZING! I really hope it qualifies the way it now, but if it somehow doesn't, you should make some adjustments until it fits.
Linkblade: Not a fan of Exploratory Mission TBH, but It's the Big One! is pretty cool! The text can be a bit consufusing thought, I think it's better to sacrifice flavour in order to make text easier to understand.
AeroJulwin: Flavour wise your card is a 5/5, but mechanic wise it is quite weird. Ancient Relics weren't that good even when them came out, and nowadays days they manage to be worse. Also, not a fan by the fact you're ment to attack with it to solve the puzzle, it just feels wrong, specially as a Priest card. My suggestion is to change the condition to break the durability and reduce the Ancient Relics costs, something like "Whenever you cast a spell, lose a durability. Deathrattle: Put a random Ancient Relic on the bottom of your deck, they costs (3) less." or something along these lines.
LarryMoments: That's a neat card, but I think the Emergency Defences should be simplified somehow, it seens to be trying to hard to be innovative the way it is now. And about the artwork, I searched for some fitting art for you, see if you like any of them. Just click in the Spoilers to see them.
Arkasaur: Vengeful Retreat is nice but Shadow Word: Drown is Awesome! It could use some balance changes problably, but it is still a 5/5.
Neoguli: Spare Recycler is weird, but Kolrax the Voidseal is pretty cool! I'm problably biased by my Warlock "fanboyism", but still, that's my honest opinion. And if you choose to go with Kolrax, you should clarify what "The First Seal" is in the description, not everyone will remember Rin was a card. And also, I think you should remove the Kobolds watermark since that set already has Rin.
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Feedback:
About the card itself, it's fine, but maybe a bit too bland. However, you can make up for it if you find a good flavor for it.
Regarding It's The Big One, it has a very cool flavor (even better than the other card), but I don't think it's as interesting from a gameplay perspective. Also, I don't know if I'm very dim today, but I had to read its text several times before understanting how it works.
Vengeful Retreat isn't bad, but it's two effects seem a bit too disconnected.
Spare Recycler has the issue of being a better version of Spider Tank, which is also from GvG. This could be fixed by making this minion a 2 mana 2/3. Even then, Spare Parts were too weak for this to have a major impact (although it's probably fine because the design philosophy back then was very different).
Kolrax, on the other hand, seems to be a replacement for Rin, the First Disciple, but seems weaker than her. Sure, he has vanilla stats and can be played two turns earlier, but the card going to the bottom of your deck instead of your hand is a major downgrade (especially during the 4 years this would've existed until Sunken City was released).
Making Ancient Puzzle a Shaman card is a good idea. MrRhapsody's phrasing is also nice, but I think casting X spells as a requirement makes it too similar to Queen Azshara. (I think you confused it with some other treasures, so I'll make sure to explain it in the submission description).
This is the only solution I could find that feels right. It even supports a currently unused archetype. Of course, Sidequests and Ancient Relics being from different expansions is a problem. Honestly, I'm quite happy with it, so it's worth it to me.
Feedback soon!
I've got some versions for Shaman and Warrior. The blue border and Elemental probably screamed Shaman.
Now for some feedback.
Lady Vude'ja has an effect that I think is a groundwork for a pretty good idea, but under its current execution, it seems too slow. It is reliant on Dredging a lot and then waiting.
That's Bait is pretty funny, though one think I sorta don't like is the unpredictable nature of it. The bottom-most minion in your deck could be a little 2/2, or it could be something like King Krush or some other large Beast. Granted, I do think you'd probably build a deck around it only cheating out large Beasts where the speed in which the effect activates would be more manageable and the unpredictability aspect of it is lessened. I'd say I probably prefer it over Vude'ja.
Exploratory Mission is a cool Secret (don't tell Sinti I said that) that makes a cool use of design space that I haven't seen used on Secrets before. The Subpurrsible is probably too weak as a 7 mana 7/7. I would say to reduce the Cost, but the actual amount would be unintuitive if you can't explain it on the card.
I admire how creative you got with the flavor wording of It's The Big One! The problem though is that I literally cannot figure out what the card does because of it.
A non-Legendary way to generate the Relics is also a bit off-putting to me.
Shadow Word: Drown sort of shows a perspective of how bad Star Student Stelina was. It's a cool piece of disruption that's in the spirit of the set, although it being much more usable and impactful than Stelina does make me question its power level a bit.
Vengeful Retreat is fine. I'm not sure if this was intentional or not, but a part I do like is that you can cast it on a useless token that you don't care about, and the downside is pretty negligible. Seems like an equally valid method as using it on something you want and Dredging it again.
A criticism I do have about both cards though is that their artworks don't really feel like VttSC cards to me.
Spare Recycler is "cute", but it seems to be made up of a big stew of anachronism. It's a GvG card, but it uses a mechanic that didn't exist until K&C (keeping enchantments), and another that can't really be utilized well until VttSC (going to the bottom of the deck). It doesn't feel like a GvG card to me. As Wailor pointed out, it is also existing in the same set as Spider Tank, and just having a bunch of Spare Part enchantments doesn't make it an exciting card to get again since the upgrades are going to be incredibly minor, and it also requires you cast a shitload of Spare Parts on specifically it and nothing else to make it a threat.
I'm afraid I'm not really too big of Kol'rax the Voidseal either. Putting The First Seal on the bottom of the deck means that by the time you draw it, your opponent's deck will be either empty of almost empty, effectively rendering Azari, the Devourer worthless when there's no deck for him to destroy.
Sunken Fortune is extremely flavorful, but it doesn't seem particularly useful to me in a lot of cases. I feel like Coins are probably not things you want to Dredge most of the time, and being cast when drawn also means you're force to make use of it that turn or the effect is wasted. It's also not very good in the late-game since you can't have more than 10 Mana Crystals, making the effect wasted since you're also going to draw the card that you probably would've drawn anyway if there were no Coins there. If it was a token that added Coins to your hand that was cast when drawn, I think it'd be a lot better.
Pressure Exchange is sort of a cool Deathrattle Warlock support card. I think it's flavorful.
How's this for an updated version of It's The Big One!? Now the Beast is guaranteed to be Legendary - as it should be, in my opinion - and I've clarified the 3 turns thing a little better as-to what you need to do (draw it or summon it).
Not sure yet how to cut the Cost of Exploratory Mission's Sub to make it the 4/7/7 meme it dreams of being lol. Feedback will probably be tomorrow on my day off; pretty tired from work.
That's Bait is the more interesting option. It is clearly designed to cheat out Sunken Saber. But I think its effect is too strong.
It's The Big One is very fun flavor-wise, but functionally the extra effect feels a bit unnecessary. All it does is force you to play it the same turn you Dredge, or make sure you have the opportunity to the next few turns, which isn't a big deal for a 1-Cost.
Pressure Exchange has more potential. Being able to Dredge the minion back up is nice, although not very strong compared to Sunken cards. And I'm wondering whether there's a lot of minions that would be worth losing their body to trigger their Deathrattle early.
This was my idea. I liked the idea of a different type of rogue thieving. Cost might be low, but I felt 4 was too high so I added the increase of cost on the stolen card.
Bruuuuuh, I'm sorry, I had a brain fart and tought that Ancient Relics were the cards given by OG Rafaam, that art just screamed League of Explorers for me for some reason. Allow me to do another feedback them.
The card the way it is now is pretty awesome! However, mixing mechanics from different expansions when it is not asked from the competition has proven to be problematic in the past, so I don't recommend you to bring sidequests back. I think you should mix the original idea and the new one to make a new card, something like a 3/0/3 Shaman weapon with "Whenever you cast a spell from a different school, lose a Durability. Deathrattle: Put a random Ancient Relic on the bottom of your deck", or maybe " Whenever you cast a spell from a different school, put a random Ancient Relic on the bottom of your deck and lose a durability".
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Alright, listened to feedback and made 3 different versions of Emergency Defenses just to see which version is the best for this. (And ig the other one on my post also counts)
That, and new art for the Captain which I thank Rhap for,
I'll do feedback once I get out of class or tomorrow, I'm somewhat busy with college.
"From break and ruin, the most beautiful performance begins"
Thanks to the feedback, I realised some issues with both my cards, so I made a new version of both of them.
Coiling Chronomancer's effect has less value than her previous version, but at the same time, is way less clunky. I think the best comparison would be Commander Sivara: it requires less setup, but it gives you only one card and you still have to draw it. Not sure if it's a bit too weak, though.
Marine Manipulator, on the other hand, isn't as cool as its previous Secret form, but it was way too dangerous as a 2 Mana card. I wonder if it would make more sense as a Neutral in its current form...
Anyway, more feedback:
Pressure Exchange would make more sense in a class with Deathrattles, so I'd probably make it Priest or Rogue (the flavor doesn't fit Hunter). Also, I'm afraid it's a bit too weak right now. Compared to Play Dead, the cost of sinking your minion seems a higher price to pay than 1 Mana. Finally, the name isn't very obvious at first glance, so something like Sudden Drowning might work better, at least for me.
All in all, I think I prefer Pressure Exchange, but I think it's not without flaws.
Wailor, I made a minion version of it like you suggested. This definitely feels more solid as a card.
Bomb
Counter to Dredge and fatigue strategies.
(FYI I was the one to post it as a 3/3 on hcards a few days ago)
I think Shipsinker doesn't match the rules of this card competition. The rules at the top state the cards need to be placed at the bottom of your deck, not the opponent's.
...ah fuck I just noticed that the version I submitted has its effect as a Battlecry and not Deathrattle as I intended.
Dammit, I'm gonna lose points in the flavor department.
"From break and ruin, the most beautiful performance begins"
I didn't plan to be realy active this week, but I just want to let know @linkblade that both of their cards are extremely weak. Why would I want to spend 1 Mana and a card in hand for a mediocre card in my deck?
Ok
You're probably right, @ChickyChick, so I came up with something new. I still want to incentivize the player to go get the item, but now you at least get something respectable even if you don't jump through the hoops:
If Fenek dies the Boomerang will come back and you'll equip it, but you lose out on the Battlecry. If you go through the effort to obtain the weapon yourself, you'll be rewarded (and maybe get a pat on the back from your teacher). Time for a training montage!
PS: I want everyone to know how hard it was to find good, usable art related to boomerangs lol :P
PPS: Feedback is next. Turns out I'm positive for Covid, which might help explain why I've felt sluggish and off. I'll get there eventually.
The aforementioned feedback:
Cheese - As SkeithDE alluded to, the prompt asks that we put cards at the bottom of our own decks, and Shipsinker unfortunately does not.
SkeithDE - This is evil, but in a way that's appropriate for the Rogue. You might get junk, but you could also get their Sunken card; sounds about right for the Thief archetype.
Wailor - I like Marine Manipulator, now that it is a minion. Much more fair. Coiling Chronomancer is fine, but only being one spell means you want something impactful and big, and what good options are there currently? The Manipulator has a Big Beast feel to it, to the point where I'd almost suggest removing the Beast tag from this minion so it doesn't disrupt your deck.
LarryMoments - Of the various buttons, I also prefer the 1-mana version. All-around, I like it: Warrior cards with the Pirate tag are scary nowadays, but this doesn't really fit in that particular deck so it should be fine.
Demonxz95 - I personally think the Shaman one is more interesting, because it's more out-of-the-box in regards to its tag and what kind of deck the Shaman would be looking to create. The Warrior card is a more straight-forward inclusion, so maybe go with that one 'cause it's more "natural".
AeroJulwin - I don't care too much about things like "oh no, Sidequest in the wrong expansion!" Who's to say they didn't make a one-off Sidequest, just like when they make one-off Legendary spells or Legendary weapons? I don't think anyone expected The Fist of Ra-den when it came out, for example. All-in-all, I think you're good to go.
MrRhapsody - The problem with Pressure Exchange, in my opinion, is that the minion does not die. This means you can't utilize Tamsin's Phylactery, for example, or any-other card with a similar requirement of the minion having been dead. You get a quick proc of their Deathrattle, and can do so again later I suppose, but you've lost a minion on the table which could be a problem. For 0-Mana I can see it being okay, but I'd have to see it in action.
Neoguli - I agree with the earlier feedback that putting The First Seal on the bottom of one's deck is a problem. Without Dredge back then, it would come too late and not be as impactful. Spare Recycler is the better card by default.
Arkasaur - I prefer Shadow Word: Drown, even if it would piss me off lol. You appear good to go.
Honestly, I feel like both of my cards kinda suck but I'm not feeling like making another, So I did two new versions of Pressure Exchange based on feedback, which is the best name, class and effect for it? Should a make a mix of them? Or just go with the original? (And also, the Priest version uses the same wording as Ambassador Faelin, so it puts 3 random minions in the deck, don't be confused)
Anyway, a quick feedback in a weird order:
Demon: I still think Shaman fits better.
Wailor: Yeah, despite the amazing flavour, your cards had some issues, but still, you managed to make clever adaptations. So about the new cards, the new Coiling Chronomancer is kinda boring and week, but Marine Manipulator is almost as good as the secret. It still has that "If the bottom card is not a minion" problem, but it seens most people here are not too worried about it, and honestly I have no idea how to adjust the problem without killing the flavour, so I'll say you should just submmit as it is and clarify the interaction in the description.
SkeithDE: The minion version is pretty neat! It could use a 1 or even 2 Health buff since the pay off is not immediate for neither players.
Cheese: Welp, nice card, but rules are rules, you should think of something else, since I don't think there's a way to adjust the current card without breaking the flavour, mechanics or rules.
Linkblade: I was going to say that the new It's the Big One was awesome but weak, but now that I see your new card, know that it is amazing! Both flavour and mechanic wise. I'm just not sure about balance, giving a Windfury weapon to a class with Weapon buffs is quite scary, specially with 6 durability, but maybe that is just my Rogue haterism speaking, but I still suggest you to wait a bit for more feedback. Off topic: Sucks that you got Covid, but sure you'll get better in no time, cheers!
Do you also like Elden Ring? Then you should check out my Elden Ring inspired Duels Heroes!
I like the new Warlock iteration the most, but maybe that's because I'm so worried about Bootstrap Sunkeneer-ing your own minion. It's that or the original; whichever you think is more balanced.
For my Boomerang, do you have any suggestion as-to what I could replace the Windfury with? My brain is kind of foggy today, and I can't think of another good payoff effect (just +3 Durability is kind of...meh).
Thanks for the kind words, as well :)
Oh well. I'll pass on this one then.
Very late feedback:
Even if Windfury is usually a Shaman or Neutral keyword, I don't think it's much of an issue here. I mean, Rogues are known for enchanting weapons and exceptions to these soft rules exist (like Al'Akir the Windlord having Divine Shield) and Windfury fits a boomerang like a T. If you're worried about it, you could make it a Shaman card (boomerangs are sort of a tribal thing, so it'd make sense), but the card feels more Rogue to me.
My main issue is the lack of tools to pull the card, but I guess this hypothetical expansion could have a keyword similar to Dredge or even belong to the Year of the Hydra.
All in all, I like this better than your previous cards and I think it has a good chance of winning the comp.
About your feedback, I made a non-Beast version of the Manipulator, but I still think I'll go with the previous one. This one has an overall worse feel, I believe.
You've got less than 24 hours to submit. Let's go.
Good luck to our future finalists! I'm assuming it won't be me lel
Congratulations to Demon!
Grats, Demon!
Ayooo poggers!
"From break and ruin, the most beautiful performance begins"
Ah, I was outside when it happened, but this is pretty sick! Thank you all.
Congrats!
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