Nope, the taunt would have left me with 0 mana and I had no answer in hand or I would have saved Zeph up for later use (see first screenshot). I figured it was brawl or die and tried to push him in that direction but he obviously knew better.
Yeah, I know. I just tried to explain the taunt option argument. I meant to say, that Zephrys might have thought, that you already had a clear in hand and that you needed a taunt for the next turn.
[edit] After rereading the last sentence, I came to the conclusion that it sounds a bit dumb. I tried to say, that Zephrys gives you a variety of options to deal with a certain scenario. Since he can't see the contents of your hand, he can't decide on his own how appropriate his options are and whether he should give you sth else. In some scenarios the tempo option is better, especially when combined with support from hand. That's what I tried to say. But after a further consideration, the taunt option here does sound like a whiff. In the case of the healing spell, Zephrys gave you some mana to spare with, so if you had a 2-mana removal or a taunt, Healing Touch would have granted you more HP. But, yeah, the druid card is worse than the worst Brawl outcome, so you are right that with this logic Zephrys should have given you the warrior board clear instead of the druid minion.
Nope, the taunt would have left me with 0 mana and I had no answer in hand or I would have saved Zeph up for later use (see first screenshot). I figured it was brawl or die and tried to push him in that direction but he obviously knew better.
I am perfectly familiar with those discussions, and have even partaken in a few of them. And looking back on them, I think you articulated exactly why Unyielding Spirit needs to be nerfed.
In that first linked post: "Riot has plans to release more Obliterate cards in the future, i would not worry too much about it."
"In the future," so the card is not being properly balanced out by the existing set of answers in LoR today.
In the second linked post: "Let's not forget Judgment played on Fiora can potencially [sic] win the game right away while Unyielding spirit will take a couple turns."
The reason Judgment isn't a massively OP card is that its speed allows for counterplay from any region (with hard removal, damage-based removal, bounces/stuns, Frostbite, etc.).
In the third linked post: "it is too costly/situational for high level games...its too annoying/lacks counterplay for casual/slow games."
You conflate casual and slow here, suggesting that "high level" is equivalent to fast/aggro. I suspect this is why you don't see clearly that this card is a problem. Two of the top tier decks today are slower Demacia decks that run one or two copies of Unyielding Spirit. Expensive, situation cards are the bread and butter of control decks, which plan to stabilize in the mid game and win with big, powerful, expensive plays in the late game. When the only reasonable counterplay to the card is "win with aggressive decks before Round 5 or 6," the meta game gets warped in a way that makes the play experience less fun for all archetypes. This was exactly what happened in Hearthstone with The Caverns Below.
I fully agree with you but wasn't Hearthstone always this way after Naxxaramas?
I mean, there was always this 1 way too powerfull [sic] deck warping the meta which was so much stronger then [sic] everything else that forced every other deck to either tech against it or to play counters.
I added the bold-facing in that quote to draw your attention to the critical part here - balance only works when other decks can tech against/play counters for the OP effects of decks they face off against.
This salt isn't related to playing Hearthstone at all (like I very rarely get so salty about the game unless it's an outside context problem like game disconnecting or bugging out), but I just wanna throw a large rock on anyone that still whines about "CLASS IDENTITY REEEEE" bullshit. Y'know, the people who memes and complaints about Paladin having no identity and meanwhile we have Shamans here having absolutely no direction at all in their new cards and I don't see people meming and complaining about Shaman. At least Paladin's stuff, messy as the flavor can be (which I disagree a lot but that's for another day) all converges into one solid gameplan which is Midrange (and sometimes Aggro). What the fuck do you do with Shaman right now? Control? Aggro? Burst combo? Who the hell knows?
The point of card games is the cards, and sometimes you gotta play fast and loose with the 'strict established' flavor if you want new cards to pop. I don't play all the Paladin cards, but I love Murgur Murgurgle, Annoy-o-Module, the Lightforged and Libram cards, all of these are fun cards regardless of how 'out of flavor' or how weird they are. So just fuck you to any of you dumbasses rubbing two brain cells together and making the ABSOLUTELY ORIGINAL HOT TAKE of "Guys, Paladin class identity a mess amirite? durrrrr".
If there's one deck I absolutely despise in all my life it's probably going to be Galakrond Shaman. Yeah, it's kinda crappy now, but back when it was popular good lord I just hate every single fiber of my being wasted on a game against this deck. Wanna make a board presence? Nah man fuck you have some 2/1 Rush killing your shit. Oh, what's that you wanna sit on your ass and save up for a value turn? Fuck you have a board you can't kill at all. Did you happen to think you're save because you managed to clear me out? Sike, 8/8 Rushes on turn 7 with an Arcanite Reaper baybeeeeeeee. Oh, you think that's enough? Shudderwock time. It was just absolutely ghoulish to face this deck in its glory days and to this day even if they're bad I just don't feel any fun playing against them.
Oh and I also hate Control decks but I think it's less because of how it plays and more because of the dumbasses acting all elitist and snobby and pro just because they play a deck that is basically "Remove shit, play shit your Aggro/Midrange opponent can't handle, wincon their ass while you sit on your ass, done". Is that generalizing? Sure, the same way people generalize Aggro a lot. So just shut up if you play Control, you're not any less smarter than me the Aggro player.
Ah, that last paragraph explains it. Holy Nova was fine for me, I see why he offered this. I just didn't get the other two because even if my opponent would have traded into the taunt the best possible way for me, that would have been worse than the worst possible brawl outcome. But now you mention it I remember a stream or something where they explained that Zeph always (?) goes for a variety of answers, like offering taunt, aoe and heal if you use him defensively. Thank you!
Np. Maybe Zephrys assumed, that you had a board clear (or some sort of an answer) in hand and that's why he decided to give you the taunt?
Golden cards are great for flexing and sometimes when the Golden cards are getting nerfed it's really nice, but yeah, I'd rather the Rares and that one Epic and the packs. It just feels a lot more satisfying, even if you're mostly complete in terms of your collection like me.
As for the thread's purposes, most of the bad cards I love tend to be Legendaries, but in particular is Dreadscale and Rotface, who isn't really that bad, but they just never got their chance in the sun, and that sucks :c
Another bad card I dig is Rusty Recycler. Just his opening quote and his simple Lifesteal/Taunt effect...I just really vibe, y'know?
When I first saw this list, I though the Ember Maiden was a great idea for a buff; I've played a lot of Sejuani/Swain and would love to see Ember Maiden stick to the board a little longer and/or offer a meaningful blocker after one proc.
This morning, though, I've been playing some Demacia/Freljord midrange, and her 2 Health has actually been a pretty big deal for how well she curves out in the deck. As a 3/2, she can easily activates Wolfrider and Radiant Guardian on curve*. Add in the fact that you can pretty easily use Take Heart to keep her on the board, and all the sudden I'm not convinced she needs any buffing.
* Obviously the "on curve" part gets a little odd if you manage to get both on curve rather than just one or the other, as you'll have 6 mana going into Round 5 and might prefer to play something like Sejuani
Cards i like to see a buff someday: Iceborn Legacy -> Fast Avalanche -> 3 damage OR Fast Poro Herder -> Remove condition Braum -> 5 damage (His level up is not that OP for todays meta anyway) Shared Spoils -> 3 mana, draw a card OR reduced cost 1 mana.
Ah, that last paragraph explains it. Holy Nova was fine for me, I see why he offered this. I just didn't get the other two because even if my opponent would have traded into the taunt the best possible way for me, that would have been worse than the worst possible brawl outcome. But now you mention it I remember a stream or something where they explained that Zeph always (?) goes for a variety of answers, like offering taunt, aoe and heal if you use him defensively. Thank you!
Really cool deck! I have lots of fun with this, even if I have only managed to pull off the combo twice so far and both times the first card drawn was Anka lol.
I'm missing Sneed though and replaced him with a serpent egg for the moment since I find myself struggling in the early game quite often. Any better suggestions?
One card I'm surprised missed the original list is Shadow Assassin. It's a 3-of auto include in every Ionia deck regardless of the strategy they're trying to implement. It just does a little too much for its cost. I'd nerf it down to a 2/1.
Sorry for the necro but can someone tell me what I'm missing here?
I was specifically looking for Brawl and while Holy Nova at least makes a bit of sense, the other two just seem weird. I guess I would have lost anyway but who knows if Alex wouldn't have sent me some heal. As it stood, my opponent used the remaining 4 attack on board plus Soulfire to finish me next turn.
The problem is, that Zephrys doesn't see what class/deck your opponent is playing and he can't figure out the possibility of them having burst from hand. He's not coded to work like this. Check this post:
If others are willing to look beyond the OP's framing to the broader question, I would be interested in what other scenarios people have seen go awry. One thing I've noticed in playing against Zephrys is what seems like a fairly limited card pool. If I'm a turn away from lethal, my opponent almost always plays Tirion Fordring the same turn as Zephrys. But one thing that the AI clearly doesn't weigh – but that the human player should – is that I'm playing Rogue, so have numerous ways to get Tirion out of the way or to ping off his Divine Shield. Sap? Game over. Fan of Knives, Lackeys, SI:7 Agent, whatever. So I'd say there were two separate problems that the Tirion scenario draws out:
1) Lack of awareness of opponent's class identity. The AI doesn't need to know exactly what cards I'm holding to know whether I'm more or less likely to have answers based purely on the spells available to my class (in Standard at least).
2) General lack of options. Like I said, Tirion is produced literally every time. But objectively, even something like Khartut Defender something else might be a better option if you're a turn away from certain death. (I mean, even in the OP's scenario, if the other player was at 1 HP, why even offer Swipe, Fireball, and Eviscerate? Why not Shiv?)
That and also the fact, that the enemy board consisted of weak and fragile minions. He also saw how both you and your drake were low on health, so he gave you a self healing AoE. (If the opponent had had some sticky 4-attack+ minions on the board, Zephrys would have also considered giving you Chaos Nova or Brawl. And, no, the divine shielded minions don't count in your case, because their damage alone wouldn't have been enough to kill you.) Giving you a Brawl as you desired, even if it corresponded to your mana and might have saved you in your case, would have put you in a worse board state (tempowise). The AoE could have whiffed; Zephrys wanted to give you a 100% secure answer. That's why Holy Nova makes a lot of sense.
And since he already gave you a board clear, I assume, that Zephrys thought the other options should be different. Hence he gave you some healing and a 5-mana taunt.
Great design! It really captured Zilean's essence. I like the Time Warp idea a lot!
Just keep in mind... shuffling Zilean over and over into the deck is a bit toxic thou, as it cannot run out of cards and its somewhat impossible to get rid of him. Maybe his second form should not have Last Breath.
I don't think her being good stand alone is a problem, not every champion is yasuo, I think it's fine having champions that are good, but better with support.
Zephrys: the great fails
Yeah, I know. I just tried to explain the taunt option argument. I meant to say, that Zephrys might have thought, that you already had a clear in hand and that you needed a taunt for the next turn.
[edit] After rereading the last sentence, I came to the conclusion that it sounds a bit dumb. I tried to say, that Zephrys gives you a variety of options to deal with a certain scenario. Since he can't see the contents of your hand, he can't decide on his own how appropriate his options are and whether he should give you sth else. In some scenarios the tempo option is better, especially when combined with support from hand. That's what I tried to say. But after a further consideration, the taunt option here does sound like a whiff. In the case of the healing spell, Zephrys gave you some mana to spare with, so if you had a 2-mana removal or a taunt, Healing Touch would have granted you more HP. But, yeah, the druid card is worse than the worst Brawl outcome, so you are right that with this logic Zephrys should have given you the warrior board clear instead of the druid minion.
Zephrys: the great fails
Nope, the taunt would have left me with 0 mana and I had no answer in hand or I would have saved Zeph up for later use (see first screenshot). I figured it was brawl or die and tried to push him in that direction but he obviously knew better.
Balance Patch Predictions?
I am perfectly familiar with those discussions, and have even partaken in a few of them. And looking back on them, I think you articulated exactly why Unyielding Spirit needs to be nerfed.
Frankly, I don't know why I'm bothering to continue to argue this with you. We've already had this discussion (https://outof.cards/forums/legends-of-runeterra/runeterra-general/4170-fiora-unyielding-spirit-is-bs?page=1#comment-90407), and you yourself made my point for me:
I added the bold-facing in that quote to draw your attention to the critical part here - balance only works when other decks can tech against/play counters for the OP effects of decks they face off against.
Group Therapy! Need to blow off some steam? Mega salty? Here's the place!
This salt isn't related to playing Hearthstone at all (like I very rarely get so salty about the game unless it's an outside context problem like game disconnecting or bugging out), but I just wanna throw a large rock on anyone that still whines about "CLASS IDENTITY REEEEE" bullshit. Y'know, the people who memes and complaints about Paladin having no identity and meanwhile we have Shamans here having absolutely no direction at all in their new cards and I don't see people meming and complaining about Shaman. At least Paladin's stuff, messy as the flavor can be (which I disagree a lot but that's for another day) all converges into one solid gameplan which is Midrange (and sometimes Aggro). What the fuck do you do with Shaman right now? Control? Aggro? Burst combo? Who the hell knows?
The point of card games is the cards, and sometimes you gotta play fast and loose with the 'strict established' flavor if you want new cards to pop. I don't play all the Paladin cards, but I love Murgur Murgurgle, Annoy-o-Module, the Lightforged and Libram cards, all of these are fun cards regardless of how 'out of flavor' or how weird they are. So just fuck you to any of you dumbasses rubbing two brain cells together and making the ABSOLUTELY ORIGINAL HOT TAKE of "Guys, Paladin class identity a mess amirite? durrrrr".
What is your most unreasonable dislike of a deck?
If there's one deck I absolutely despise in all my life it's probably going to be Galakrond Shaman. Yeah, it's kinda crappy now, but back when it was popular good lord I just hate every single fiber of my being wasted on a game against this deck. Wanna make a board presence? Nah man fuck you have some 2/1 Rush killing your shit. Oh, what's that you wanna sit on your ass and save up for a value turn? Fuck you have a board you can't kill at all. Did you happen to think you're save because you managed to clear me out? Sike, 8/8 Rushes on turn 7 with an Arcanite Reaper baybeeeeeeee. Oh, you think that's enough? Shudderwock time. It was just absolutely ghoulish to face this deck in its glory days and to this day even if they're bad I just don't feel any fun playing against them.
Oh and I also hate Control decks but I think it's less because of how it plays and more because of the dumbasses acting all elitist and snobby and pro just because they play a deck that is basically "Remove shit, play shit your Aggro/Midrange opponent can't handle, wincon their ass while you sit on your ass, done". Is that generalizing? Sure, the same way people generalize Aggro a lot. So just shut up if you play Control, you're not any less smarter than me the Aggro player.
Balance Patch Predictions?
You are a smart guy, i am sure you don't need me for you to come out with a better solution that won't kill the card.
It was vastly discussed already, you might want to check for hints in old topics:
https://outof.cards/forums/legends-of-runeterra/runeterra-general/4084-what-kind-of-design-is-that
https://outof.cards/forums/legends-of-runeterra/runeterra-general/3992-invincible-card
https://outof.cards/forums/legends-of-runeterra/runeterra-general/4203-give-an-ally-cannot-be-damaged-or-killed-what-card-is-this
As for myself, i don't think Unyielding Spirit trully needs to be changed.
But since it is a toxic card for casual games, guess riot will change it.
Zephrys: the great fails
Np. Maybe Zephrys assumed, that you had a board clear (or some sort of an answer) in hand and that's why he decided to give you the taunt?
Anyone else ticked about losing golden epic rewards?
Golden cards are great for flexing and sometimes when the Golden cards are getting nerfed it's really nice, but yeah, I'd rather the Rares and that one Epic and the packs. It just feels a lot more satisfying, even if you're mostly complete in terms of your collection like me.
[Game] Card Treasure Hunt (The Resurrection Attempt)
Another hint for everybody:
1. Think about other ways key words in the riddle could be used, or alternative meanings they have.
Odes to our Favorite Bad Cards of All Time
First of all digging that Sam Giancana avatar.
As for the thread's purposes, most of the bad cards I love tend to be Legendaries, but in particular is Dreadscale and Rotface, who isn't really that bad, but they just never got their chance in the sun, and that sucks :c
Another bad card I dig is Rusty Recycler. Just his opening quote and his simple Lifesteal/Taunt effect...I just really vibe, y'know?
Balance Patch Predictions?
When I first saw this list, I though the Ember Maiden was a great idea for a buff; I've played a lot of Sejuani/Swain and would love to see Ember Maiden stick to the board a little longer and/or offer a meaningful blocker after one proc.
This morning, though, I've been playing some Demacia/Freljord midrange, and her 2 Health has actually been a pretty big deal for how well she curves out in the deck. As a 3/2, she can easily activates Wolfrider and Radiant Guardian on curve*. Add in the fact that you can pretty easily use Take Heart to keep her on the board, and all the sudden I'm not convinced she needs any buffing.
* Obviously the "on curve" part gets a little odd if you manage to get both on curve rather than just one or the other, as you'll have 6 mana going into Round 5 and might prefer to play something like Sejuani
Bringing Quest Druid back?
Hi everyone! Pezman here with a fun, off-meta, homebrew deck you might want to try. Check it out, leave a suggestion, give it a spin!
https://outof.cards/hearthstone/decks/15715-off-meta-questing
Balance Patch Predictions?
Cards that might be nerfed next patch:
Unyielding Spirit -> Change text "Ally" to "Follower".
Boomcrew Rookie -> 1/2 or 1 damage
Imperial Demolitionist -> 1 damage
Crimson Disciple -> 1 damage
War Chefs -> 2/2
Grizzled Ranger -> 2/1
Cards that i would like to see nerfed but i don't think Riot will do it right now:
Deep Meditation -> Slow
Will of Ionia -> 5 mana
Solitary Monk -> 3/4
Precious Pet -> 1/1 + Last Breath: Deal 1 damage to the enemy nexus
Ezreal -> Level Up: target 10 times
Terror of the Tides -> 9 mana
Cards i like to see a buff someday:
Iceborn Legacy -> Fast
Avalanche -> 3 damage OR Fast
Poro Herder -> Remove condition
Braum -> 5 damage (His level up is not that OP for todays meta anyway)
Shared Spoils -> 3 mana, draw a card OR reduced cost 1 mana.
Zephrys: the great fails
Ah, that last paragraph explains it. Holy Nova was fine for me, I see why he offered this. I just didn't get the other two because even if my opponent would have traded into the taunt the best possible way for me, that would have been worse than the worst possible brawl outcome. But now you mention it I remember a stream or something where they explained that Zeph always (?) goes for a variety of answers, like offering taunt, aoe and heal if you use him defensively. Thank you!
Bonemaster Dorian's Rollrattle Rogue
Really cool deck! I have lots of fun with this, even if I have only managed to pull off the combo twice so far and both times the first card drawn was Anka lol.
I'm missing Sneed though and replaced him with a serpent egg for the moment since I find myself struggling in the early game quite often. Any better suggestions?
Thanks for sharing!
Dragoon Custom Class
And finally I've reposted everything important from my Imgur album here, which means this thread's finished! Mostly.
Let me know what you think of this class, y'all :3
Weekend Wild Hearthstone Decks - Exodia Paladin, Deathrattle Rogue, Mech Mage & More
Thanks Frosty - I always like seeing these decks even if a lot of the time I'm missing some expensive cards.
Balance Patch Predictions?
One card I'm surprised missed the original list is Shadow Assassin. It's a 3-of auto include in every Ionia deck regardless of the strategy they're trying to implement. It just does a little too much for its cost. I'd nerf it down to a 2/1.
Balance Patch Predictions?
So what do you recommend instead? Or is the snarky response all you've got?
Balance Patch Predictions?
Might just delete the card as well.
There are plenty of other ways to nerf it, you guys are just picking the worst one.
Balance Patch Predictions?
I get a lot of these changes, but why the update to Jinx? Just because they added Noxian Fervor and Gotcha! to the game?
Also, while Loyal Badgerbear is very powerful, the nerf you're suggesting makes him a worse Iron Ballista. The real problem in my mind is the Grizzled Ranger.
And I agree with CursedParrot that Unyielding Spirit needs a speed change.
Zephrys: the great fails
The problem is, that Zephrys doesn't see what class/deck your opponent is playing and he can't figure out the possibility of them having burst from hand. He's not coded to work like this. Check this post:
That and also the fact, that the enemy board consisted of weak and fragile minions. He also saw how both you and your drake were low on health, so he gave you a self healing AoE. (If the opponent had had some sticky 4-attack+ minions on the board, Zephrys would have also considered giving you Chaos Nova or Brawl. And, no, the divine shielded minions don't count in your case, because their damage alone wouldn't have been enough to kill you.) Giving you a Brawl as you desired, even if it corresponded to your mana and might have saved you in your case, would have put you in a worse board state (tempowise). The AoE could have whiffed; Zephrys wanted to give you a 100% secure answer. That's why Holy Nova makes a lot of sense.
And since he already gave you a board clear, I assume, that Zephrys thought the other options should be different. Hence he gave you some healing and a 5-mana taunt.
Favorite champions not yet in the game?
Great design! It really captured Zilean's essence.
I like the Time Warp idea a lot!
Just keep in mind... shuffling Zilean over and over into the deck is a bit toxic thou, as it cannot run out of cards and its somewhat impossible to get rid of him. Maybe his second form should not have Last Breath.
Vi Rework Idea
Sorry, but this is a horrible idea. She is from PZ and you would basically lock her into only a few possible regions to pair her up with. Bad design.
PS: I edited your first post to show the picture right away for easier navigation, hope you dont mind ;-)
Vi Rework Idea
I don't think her being good stand alone is a problem, not every champion is yasuo, I think it's fine having champions that are good, but better with support.