Dhunters are at the point very similar to odd paladin where nearly every deck must somehow stuff a few 2 damage removal somewhere inside and if you don't draw it you're just dead. Even if you do, its kinda like odd paladin, they just repopulate the board and you're stuck trying to somehow regain tempo and remove the minions on board. And like odd paladin it sometimes just squeezes a win even when you're doing everything right.
But to be honest I don't really think dhunters is broken or needs a nerf. But tempo dhunter decks skew the meter so drastically that you cant build decks that can take down dhunters and still be decently equipped against the other meta decks like rogue or priest. Its just depressing when trying out deck building something different.
Either tweak the design for dhunters, or introduce some proper hate cards at the same level as Dragonmaw Poacher. Bringing back Glacial Shard would be a start
Im still at bronze, and added stars or not, its just going to be a boring grind getting back to diamond.
I've been playing quest mage today to learn the deck and see for myself just how broken it is. I've never been a fan of it myself, and have rarely played the archetype. But the current form of it is just ridiculously easy to pull off. The biggest problem is the mana cheat. You end up casting so many spells for 0 mana, which can alone end up completing your quest. I was thinking about it today on what could be done to slow down the quest completion, but also not just completely kill the OTK potential. It is healthy to have OTK decks in the meta, but the random spell generation and low cost spells have been pushed in Mage to the max for too long, and has made this Quest just way too easy to complete. I think the best option would be to make it so spells that cost 0 do not count towards quest progression. That way, only spells you spend mana on would count towards your quest. This would also eliminate The Coin being such a huge benefit.
(I have debated making it for spells that cost 2 or more just because of the amount of 1-cost spells that mage has, but I think starting with just removing the 0-cost spells should be enough to slow it down to an acceptable power level.)
This also leaves Sorcerer's Apprentice untouched. As much as I hate this card, it is actually perfectly fine. If this card was touched, it would break way too many Mage decks. Any nerfs need to be directed towards the Quest itself, and the Giants. My proposed nerf makes Sorcerer's Apprentice less powerful in the deck, since it would make all your 1-cost spells not count towards your quest.
I also agree with Lyra that the cost of Mana Giant needs to be increased. I agree that it should start at 12-mana just like Arcane Giant.
These two nerfs should slow down the speed of the OTK, while not completely destroying the archetype. This will allow for a less polarized meta that Quest Mage could still be a part of, without being a Tier-S deck.
I'm not sure that's enough, actually. I played the deck a lot in March to grind my Mage to 1.000 wins and my impression is that most spells initially cost more than 0. Like OP said, it's the cheap spells for 1 or 2 mana that get cheaper with apprentice or glyph that make up most of the cycling. Or do I get the mechanic wrong and they wouldn't count towards the quest in your iteration if they get discounted? I always assumed such cards check for the initial state of the card, not an altered form it gained by buffs or the like.
I always get astouned by the amount of dislikes people throw at any post like this, jeez. The OP is right, that card is the problem in quest mage. Is not Vargoth, is not the Quest is THAT CARD only. But hey, they said they dont care about wild so... understandable people coming from standard and seeing this post will be like "wtf is this guy on? Sorcerer is trash." I'm used to autoconceding against this matches when I see i cant win turn 3. It's that fucked up. I honestly don't care anymore when I realized the only way to make them change something is to post on their wedding tweet lol. So stupid. Time for someone to post on another wedding post to fix this deck once and for all I guess ...but then again, wild players"s opinions are not considered anyway so... whatever. (dont forget to smash the dislike on my post guys, can we get it to -30, smash that dislike)
Nerfing edwin in a meta where dhunters are running rampant is hardly a positive move. Might just relegate rogue to being the third neveruse class. Either replace edwin with another legendary, or leave him be until the next rotation.
I do like doublesummon's idea of 2/1 buff per card, but this is not the meta to do it.
Warrior is insane rn. I'm playing the VS list with Gromm (very good closing games, specially against priest) and 2x Injured Tol'vir instead of the eggs and Teron. Just got to legend with a 22-4 record on Diamond league.
I've noticed Teron is easily outplayed by rogue 1 mana 1/2 freezing sap
Yeah no, I'm done with Hearthstone for now. I'm gonna wait this one out until the next round of nerfs.
If I wanted to play games where I lose on the spot if I don't have an instant answer to every threat multiple turns in a row I would play LoR
There is actually no class outside of Priest that has a reliable and efficient answer to Priestess of Fury (especially not on turn 5) and Bomb Wrangler is just the pinnacle of garbage design. The main reason people hated Boom back in the day was because of how the Boombot RNG could just ruin you even if you played perfectly...and they just put it into a 3-drop that's even harder to deal with.
At the vey least I can rest easy knkowing that another nerf patch is basically inevitable. See you in 2 weeks or so
Yeah I agree with changing the combo buff, taking one hp from edwin's body won't do much.. I mean.. You just said you made a 24/24 what difference would a 23 hp Edwin make?
Warrior is insane rn. I'm playing the VS list with Gromm (very good closing games, specially against priest) and 2x Injured Tol'vir instead of the eggs and Teron. Just got to legend with a 22-4 record on Diamond league.
How about the combo bonus that changed to become +2/+1 instead of the stats? So there is a diminishing return the more card you combo with him.
Case study: 2/1 Edwin will be 4/3, 6/5, 8/7, and so on.
Case study: 2/2 Edwin (+2/+1) will be 4/3, 6/4, 8/5, and so on.
He will still have the same threat in his attack, but a tempo-ed early Edwin (which mainly with 3-4 card) will only have 4-5 health (instead of 6 or 8) which maybe is easier to deal with. Maybe.
When you are the only class legendary from classic that always sees play you know there's something wrong. I just played a 24/24 Edwin for the usual 3 mana, but often it's just an 8/8. This card really needs to be a 2/1 so that it can be dealt with more orderly. It's already a free monstrosity if your opponent dare thinks they can afford not having a good removal in hand. Let's make this happen. #makeedwinatwoone2020
I've been playing quest mage today to learn the deck and see for myself just how broken it is. I've never been a fan of it myself, and have rarely played the archetype. But the current form of it is just ridiculously easy to pull off. The biggest problem is the mana cheat. You end up casting so many spells for 0 mana, which can alone end up completing your quest. I was thinking about it today on what could be done to slow down the quest completion, but also not just completely kill the OTK potential. It is healthy to have OTK decks in the meta, but the random spell generation and low cost spells have been pushed in Mage to the max for too long, and has made this Quest just way too easy to complete. I think the best option would be to make it so spells that cost 0 do not count towards quest progression. That way, only spells you spend mana on would count towards your quest. This would also eliminate The Coin being such a huge benefit.
(I have debated making it for spells that cost 2 or more just because of the amount of 1-cost spells that mage has, but I think starting with just removing the 0-cost spells should be enough to slow it down to an acceptable power level.)
This also leaves Sorcerer's Apprentice untouched. As much as I hate this card, it is actually perfectly fine. If this card was touched, it would break way too many Mage decks. Any nerfs need to be directed towards the Quest itself, and the Giants. My proposed nerf makes Sorcerer's Apprentice less powerful in the deck, since it would make all your 1-cost spells not count towards your quest.
I also agree with Lyra that the cost of Mana Giant needs to be increased. I agree that it should start at 12-mana just like Arcane Giant.
These two nerfs should slow down the speed of the OTK, while not completely destroying the archetype. This will allow for a less polarized meta that Quest Mage could still be a part of, without being a Tier-S deck.
There is a new 1/2 that draws a card at the start of the next round from this expansion, maybe it was that? There’s also a spell that draws 3 at the next start of round. Also, there’s a card that makes both players draw a card when played too.
The problem is the having an extra turn in an of its self. Nerf the apprentice then more Arcane Giant lists will start showing up. Leave her alone.
I disagree. That's akin to saying an OTK deck having an OTK is a problem in and of itself.
The issue is that it is an OTK deck that can do significant mid pressure burst with Flamewaker and then kill you extremely quickly with the OTK, faster than what a standard OTK deck should be able to kill you.
Imo, the nerf needs to look at Mana Giant. Quest Mage did not see major competitve play on ladder, let alone a tier 1 or tier 0/S level deck before Mana Giant was a thing. If you look at the giant it honestly is way undercosted compared to all of the other giants. Hell, by simply meeting the 8 spell requirement of the quest it makes both giants 0 mana right away (Any wonder why the OTK is always so quick to be executed?) The mage has to do absolutely nothing out of the ordinary to do this, aside from simply drawing both giants, which is incredibly easy with their cheap cycling.
My proposal would actually be aimed at slowing the progression of the OTK and massive bodies with one stone, instead of just jacking up the spell requirement for the quest again.
Make Mana Giant 12 mana so it actually takes effort to drop an extra two massive bodies.
I agree the quest requirement could/should/would be harder, but I think his ability is fine, for its similarities to Warsong Commander and for its independent strengths. It'd probably be strong in Standard for Control to have a significant backswing, it doesn't need to combo. Do you think it's significantly more powerful than Time Warp, or Amara, Warden of Hope, or Heart of Vir'naal?
Would Anyone Lose Sleep if Edwin were a 2/1?
It's not my idea it's vandaren's idea.
I think op took inspiration from crowd's favorite nerf with his suggestion(LoR card)
Top Hearthstone Decks To Get Your Ladder Climb Done Fast
Dhunters are at the point very similar to odd paladin where nearly every deck must somehow stuff a few 2 damage removal somewhere inside and if you don't draw it you're just dead. Even if you do, its kinda like odd paladin, they just repopulate the board and you're stuck trying to somehow regain tempo and remove the minions on board. And like odd paladin it sometimes just squeezes a win even when you're doing everything right.
But to be honest I don't really think dhunters is broken or needs a nerf. But tempo dhunter decks skew the meter so drastically that you cant build decks that can take down dhunters and still be decently equipped against the other meta decks like rogue or priest. Its just depressing when trying out deck building something different.
Either tweak the design for dhunters, or introduce some proper hate cards at the same level as Dragonmaw Poacher. Bringing back Glacial Shard would be a start
Im still at bronze, and added stars or not, its just going to be a boring grind getting back to diamond.
How to fix Quest Mage:
I'm not sure that's enough, actually. I played the deck a lot in March to grind my Mage to 1.000 wins and my impression is that most spells initially cost more than 0. Like OP said, it's the cheap spells for 1 or 2 mana that get cheaper with apprentice or glyph that make up most of the cycling. Or do I get the mechanic wrong and they wouldn't count towards the quest in your iteration if they get discounted? I always assumed such cards check for the initial state of the card, not an altered form it gained by buffs or the like.
How to fix Quest Mage:
I always get astouned by the amount of dislikes people throw at any post like this, jeez. The OP is right, that card is the problem in quest mage. Is not Vargoth, is not the Quest is THAT CARD only. But hey, they said they dont care about wild so... understandable people coming from standard and seeing this post will be like "wtf is this guy on? Sorcerer is trash." I'm used to autoconceding against this matches when I see i cant win turn 3. It's that fucked up. I honestly don't care anymore when I realized the only way to make them change something is to post on their wedding tweet lol. So stupid. Time for someone to post on another wedding post to fix this deck once and for all I guess ...but then again, wild players"s opinions are not considered anyway so... whatever. (dont forget to smash the dislike on my post guys, can we get it to -30, smash that dislike)
Would Anyone Lose Sleep if Edwin were a 2/1?
Nerfing edwin in a meta where dhunters are running rampant is hardly a positive move. Might just relegate rogue to being the third neveruse class. Either replace edwin with another legendary, or leave him be until the next rotation.
I do like doublesummon's idea of 2/1 buff per card, but this is not the meta to do it.
Top Hearthstone Decks To Get Your Ladder Climb Done Fast
I've noticed Teron is easily outplayed by rogue 1 mana 1/2 freezing sap
Top Hearthstone Decks To Get Your Ladder Climb Done Fast
Yeah no, I'm done with Hearthstone for now. I'm gonna wait this one out until the next round of nerfs.
If I wanted to play games where I lose on the spot if I don't have an instant answer to every threat multiple turns in a row I would play LoR
There is actually no class outside of Priest that has a reliable and efficient answer to Priestess of Fury (especially not on turn 5) and Bomb Wrangler is just the pinnacle of garbage design. The main reason people hated Boom back in the day was because of how the Boombot RNG could just ruin you even if you played perfectly...and they just put it into a 3-drop that's even harder to deal with.
At the vey least I can rest easy knkowing that another nerf patch is basically inevitable. See you in 2 weeks or so
How to fix Quest Mage:
Maybe let the quest reward be used only for kill setup / board clears but make the result interactive. This can also make the quest be unnerfed.
Daily quests not resetting.
I got daily quest for the first day but after completing them I haven't got another one for over a week.
Top Hearthstone Decks To Get Your Ladder Climb Done Fast
Yeah Warrior and Demon Hunter will have to get nerfed sometime soon or we'll have a two class meta.
Archaeological Deck - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread
Now that would be really nice! I so want to finish that DH legendary Alandien I created this week :)
But first: good luck to everyone for this week!
Would Anyone Lose Sleep if Edwin were a 2/1?
Yeah I agree with changing the combo buff, taking one hp from edwin's body won't do much.. I mean.. You just said you made a 24/24 what difference would a 23 hp Edwin make?
If it was 2/1 per combo it would be 24/13.
Top Hearthstone Decks To Get Your Ladder Climb Done Fast
Warrior is insane rn. I'm playing the VS list with Gromm (very good closing games, specially against priest) and 2x Injured Tol'vir instead of the eggs and Teron. Just got to legend with a 22-4 record on Diamond league.
Would Anyone Lose Sleep if Edwin were a 2/1?
How about the combo bonus that changed to become +2/+1 instead of the stats? So there is a diminishing return the more card you combo with him.
Case study: 2/1 Edwin will be 4/3, 6/5, 8/7, and so on.
Case study: 2/2 Edwin (+2/+1) will be 4/3, 6/4, 8/5, and so on.
He will still have the same threat in his attack, but a tempo-ed early Edwin (which mainly with 3-4 card) will only have 4-5 health (instead of 6 or 8) which maybe is easier to deal with. Maybe.
Would Anyone Lose Sleep if Edwin were a 2/1?
When you are the only class legendary from classic that always sees play you know there's something wrong. I just played a 24/24 Edwin for the usual 3 mana, but often it's just an 8/8. This card really needs to be a 2/1 so that it can be dealt with more orderly. It's already a free monstrosity if your opponent dare thinks they can afford not having a good removal in hand. Let's make this happen. #makeedwinatwoone2020
How to fix Quest Mage:
I've been playing quest mage today to learn the deck and see for myself just how broken it is. I've never been a fan of it myself, and have rarely played the archetype. But the current form of it is just ridiculously easy to pull off.
The biggest problem is the mana cheat. You end up casting so many spells for 0 mana, which can alone end up completing your quest.
I was thinking about it today on what could be done to slow down the quest completion, but also not just completely kill the OTK potential. It is healthy to have OTK decks in the meta, but the random spell generation and low cost spells have been pushed in Mage to the max for too long, and has made this Quest just way too easy to complete.
I think the best option would be to make it so spells that cost 0 do not count towards quest progression. That way, only spells you spend mana on would count towards your quest. This would also eliminate The Coin being such a huge benefit.
(I have debated making it for spells that cost 2 or more just because of the amount of 1-cost spells that mage has, but I think starting with just removing the 0-cost spells should be enough to slow it down to an acceptable power level.)
This also leaves Sorcerer's Apprentice untouched. As much as I hate this card, it is actually perfectly fine. If this card was touched, it would break way too many Mage decks. Any nerfs need to be directed towards the Quest itself, and the Giants. My proposed nerf makes Sorcerer's Apprentice less powerful in the deck, since it would make all your 1-cost spells not count towards your quest.
I also agree with Lyra that the cost of Mana Giant needs to be increased. I agree that it should start at 12-mana just like Arcane Giant.
These two nerfs should slow down the speed of the OTK, while not completely destroying the archetype. This will allow for a less polarized meta that Quest Mage could still be a part of, without being a Tier-S deck.
Drawing 2 cards at start of round?
There is a new 1/2 that draws a card at the start of the next round from this expansion, maybe it was that? There’s also a spell that draws 3 at the next start of round. Also, there’s a card that makes both players draw a card when played too.
How to fix Quest Mage:
I disagree. That's akin to saying an OTK deck having an OTK is a problem in and of itself.
The issue is that it is an OTK deck that can do significant mid pressure burst with Flamewaker and then kill you extremely quickly with the OTK, faster than what a standard OTK deck should be able to kill you.
Imo, the nerf needs to look at Mana Giant. Quest Mage did not see major competitve play on ladder, let alone a tier 1 or tier 0/S level deck before Mana Giant was a thing. If you look at the giant it honestly is way undercosted compared to all of the other giants. Hell, by simply meeting the 8 spell requirement of the quest it makes both giants 0 mana right away (Any wonder why the OTK is always so quick to be executed?) The mage has to do absolutely nothing out of the ordinary to do this, aside from simply drawing both giants, which is incredibly easy with their cheap cycling.
My proposal would actually be aimed at slowing the progression of the OTK and massive bodies with one stone, instead of just jacking up the spell requirement for the quest again.
Make Mana Giant 12 mana so it actually takes effort to drop an extra two massive bodies.
[Fan Card] Highlander Control Patron Warrior
Thanks!
I agree the quest requirement could/should/would be harder, but I think his ability is fine, for its similarities to Warsong Commander and for its independent strengths. It'd probably be strong in Standard for Control to have a significant backswing, it doesn't need to combo. Do you think it's significantly more powerful than Time Warp, or Amara, Warden of Hope, or Heart of Vir'naal?
Tavern Brawl
Who knew? Tavern Brawl is its own expansion!
[Game] Card Treasure Hunt (The Resurrection Attempt)
Correct!!!
Al'Akir The Last Windfurybender
Buff it with Lifesteal or Magnetic to other elementals and we can talk about playing this card.
^ ^
Mark of Hakkar
This card back has become quite topical...
Invalid
Who'd've thunk it?