But despite tank up on (2) being good Odd Warrior is still out of Wild Meta. Even despite synergies with armor. So context (card pool and meta) matters. A whole lot. The perk of HP, which is the only repetitive part of these decks, is indeed just a perk. The deck themselves are not repetitive, and that's because their success is bound to cards, not by the improvement of their HP. And cards are inherently not repetitive.
I can see that the perk can feel repetitive, but it's still highly compensated by the necessity of cards.
AND by the challenge provided about deckbuilding and homebrewing. At least for the many combinations that are yet unrefined.
By nerf i mean a direct nerf to Genn and Baku themselves, harsh enough to throw their decks out of meta, which they didn't perform, suggesting it would have been overkill.
If cards are not inherently repetitive, but perk hero powers are, does it not follow that a deck with a perk hero power and cards is more repetitive than one without the perk?
If Genn and Baku decks get pushed out of the wild meta then they would cease to be a problem. I've already said as much earlier. Until that happens, the criticisms I've laid out above will continue to apply to those that persist.
The problem with nerfing G&B (hence this whole thread) is that it's hard to address these cards' strength without fundamentally changing how they work. The hero powers give very little room for adjustment, the condition is iconic and also hard to change and nerfing the minions themselves hardly affects the decks, certainly not in a way that addresses the problem. G&B already are oversized Patches. if there were an easy way to nerf these cards but keep their functionality intact I'm sure team 5 would've gone with that instead of yeeting them out of standard a year early.
To your question: no, it's actually the other way around. As you can see, we're just arguing from a different perspective.
You say that as long as perk exists, deck is repetitive (implying the perks are relevant by virtue of frequency)
I say as long as cards exist, deck is not repetitive (implying cards are the uttermost relevant part of the decks).
As for the nerf, they already performed killer nerfs in the past where necessary (eg QRogue). Since they didn't, i doubt necessity is there.
I also disagree Genn/Baku should be nerfed in any way possible, even worse with pushing them out of meta, which would be entirely arbitrary.
I agree with nerfing some class synergy cards if ever necessary, for some specific decks.
I wonder about the Doomhammer. It doesn't benefit from Whirlwind Tempest, and since the deck seems to be geared toward lategame value more than burning out the opponent, it seems to me that some more control tools or just proactive stuff like Feral Spirits/Thunderhead would benefit the deck more. Bogshaper also seems way too slow. With the spells already in the deck you might as well add Spirit of the Frog instead to draw more cards, earlier.
I'd also recommend Menacing Nimbus as a decent early drop that gives you something to do early on while potentially generating one of the high end elementals that your deck is running anyway.
Damn you're right, and i want to see some dragons as well. We can only hope they were saving the dragons for last because Kibler is on the reveal stream.
But despite tank up on (2) being good Odd Warrior is still out of Wild Meta. Even despite synergies with armor. So context (card pool and meta) matters. A whole lot. The perk of HP, which is the only repetitive part of these decks, is indeed just a perk. The deck themselves are not repetitive, and that's because their success is bound to cards, not by the improvement of their HP. And cards are inherently not repetitive.
I can see that the perk can feel repetitive, but it's still highly compensated by the necessity of cards.
AND by the challenge provided about deckbuilding and homebrewing. At least for the many combinations that are yet unrefined.
By nerf i mean a direct nerf to Genn and Baku themselves, harsh enough to throw their decks out of meta, which they didn't perform, suggesting it would have been overkill.
If cards are not inherently repetitive, but perk hero powers are, does it not follow that a deck with a perk hero power and cards is more repetitive than one without the perk?
If Genn and Baku decks get pushed out of the wild meta then they would cease to be a problem. I've already said as much earlier. Until that happens, the criticisms I've laid out above will continue to apply to those that persist.
The problem with nerfing G&B (hence this whole thread) is that it's hard to address these cards' strength without fundamentally changing how they work. The hero powers give very little room for adjustment, the condition is iconic and also hard to change and nerfing the minions themselves hardly affects the decks, certainly not in a way that addresses the problem. G&B already are oversized Patches. if there were an easy way to nerf these cards but keep their functionality intact I'm sure team 5 would've gone with that instead of yeeting them out of standard a year early.
I understand they have to market the expansion. I just wish there was a way for them to do it without killing the excitement of discovering what decks are good or bad. They should do a tournament with pro-players using only the pre-built decks instead.
the quest reward obviously looks good, I'm interested to see how the card plays out in priest. One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is you might want to think carefully when running Auchenai Soulpriest and/or Auchenai Phantasm along side the hero power, I believe if I am not mistaken It will deal 3 damage first and then give the +3/+3 but if the initial damage didn't kill the minion It can still buff the attack. Just something to consider for people who are thinking of building a heal priest.
remember that you can't heal things if they aren't damaged. it's obviously not as much of a problem for priests as it is for paladins/druids, but it could definitely hinder this card's playability.
It's a really strong payoff if you can damage yourself enough to complete it. I can foresee it potentially being weak if it's too slow to turn the tide against aggro decks and too hard to finish against control decks (if they're smart enough to not damage you)
I'd say you're raising a new argument there rather than actually addressing the point I was making and that my post already contains the rebuttal your argument: "if not necessarily to the same extent".
That's not a rebuttal, that's a claim, and one that I disagree with. The same logic does not apply at all. It could be argued that Big Priest is being addressed due to the extreme amount of critique towards it and the pressure the player base is putting on the developers regarding the deck. That is supported by that Blizzard has been hesitant to actually do anything about Big Priest so far, and seems to be stalling to see whether SoU might fix it with the murloc mass transform card, alternate tools for priest and other solutions.
I don't see how this contradicts anything I'm saying. I agree Big priest is seeing large amounts of criticism, are you arguing that Genn and Baku didn't prior to rotation? Or don't presently?
Supposing that the new BP hate cards like Curse of Murlocs "solve" the problem in wild, would you agree that Blizzard was pressured into printing those cards because of the public outcry against BP?
Edit: I also have to say that I think it's disingenuous to frame the premature rotation of Genn and Baku, an unprecedented move by the dev team and arguably the most impactful balance change to the standard meta, as just some minor little tweak. Removing two cards and thereby killing half a dozen top decks cannot be reasonably compared to the recent round of buffs. I stand by my claim that the G&B rotation is to be read as an admission by the devs that these cards are too impactful by design and can't reasonably be fixed by a simple nerf.
You're conflating the importance of issue and the means taken to fix it. The two have a positive correlation but are not the same, and to draw the parallel to how big the issue is in Wild is an inexact argument as well, so while I think either one might be acceptable, to combine the two into a single argument makes the margin of error too great.
That the cards can't be fixed with a nerf is a design issue, not a power level one.
We don't have access to focus group testing, surveys and stats that the people making the game base their decisions on. It's inevitable for there to be some level of inference and argument by analogy when arguing about something like this. I'm not exactly shy to admit that.
You not agreeing with the argument doesn't make it not an argument. If you want to make *that* case you have to actually substantively address the argument and point out where it's fallacious. The devs have stated ad nauseam that their goal isn't just to keep the game balanced, but also "fresh" "fun" "not stale", etc. By most people's standards that excludes high levels of repetitiveness.
Is the discussion about whether or not the cards should be nerfed or will be nerfed? You've conflated the two a couple of times, committing an appeal to authority.
I would prefer it if the topic remained whether they should be nerfed, but when the counterargument being presented is "Wild/HS ought to be X way, so you're wrong", it's very unfair of you to call me out for citing the game designers' views on what Wild/HS ought to be. An appeal to authority isn't always a fallacy, especially with something as subjective as "what is this game about?"
Quote From No Author Specified
That's consistency, not repetitiveness. And yes, consistency can be repetitive, but inconsistency is an unfun consequence of unhealthy RNG, and a bad way to break repetitiveness. Many Baku/Genn decks are repetitive, especially Odd Paladin, but that's not because of or inherent to the even/odd mechanics.
I don't disagree that inconsistency can be unfun(highlander decks for example), but as far as I'm concerned there is quite a broad middle-ground between a game being random and arbitrary on the one hand or predictable and repetitive on the other.
Then can you explain why Even Priest is not a deck? By your argument, cards being a secondary part of the decks, Even Priest should be a deck. Or Odd Warrior, which used to be a deck.
Because not all hero powers benefit as much from the upgrade/discount. Priest hero power is already considered one of the weaker ones, it stands to reason that building a deck around improving it wouldn't be viable.
Quote From No Author Specified
They are not, which proves cards are key factor, and some classes have them, some others don't, despite all having Genn/Baku.
I wouldn't be foolish enough to argue that the card pool is entirely irrelevant, but that really doesn't prove your case at all. Because the hero power being improved/discounted matters. You can Tank up on turn 2, whereas heal 4 likely does nothing.
Quote From No Author Specified
About HOF:
Once they recognized the problem with Odd/Even, they could have provided a nerf. They didn't, hence the problem was not what you think it is. Why should they let live something problematic in a form that is allegedly still problematic?
How would you nerf "Odd/Even"? Do you mean targeted nerfs to individual cards that are strong on odd/even decks, or what?
But despite tank up on (2) being good Odd Warrior is still out of Wild Meta. Even despite synergies with armor. So context (card pool and meta) matters. A whole lot. The perk of HP, which is the only repetitive part of these decks, is indeed just a perk. The deck themselves are not repetitive, and that's because their success is bound to cards, not by the improvement of their HP. And cards are inherently not repetitive.
I can see that the perk can feel repetitive, but it's still highly compensated by the necessity of cards.
AND by the challenge provided about deckbuilding and homebrewing. At least for the many combinations that are yet unrefined.
By nerf i mean a direct nerf to Genn and Baku themselves, harsh enough to throw their decks out of meta, which they didn't perform, suggesting it would have been overkill.
Your points are fair, especially the last one: since you seem to be a person you can reason with, I'd like to reply with my opinion.
"You will complete this quest, probably around turn 6 or 7 if you get a decent hand": Uldum's quests aren't Un'Goro quests. If you take a look at the revealed ones, each one of them can be achieved in the mid game with a decent hand. Which is exactly what the devs have pushed Priest in: Anduin has received really little to no midrange support in the years, and now in 4 months we get the silence package (its strength is questionable, but it is midrange nonetheless) and minions like Grandmummy. I imagine Priest developing a midrange archetype with its power spike around turns 7-11.
I probably made some mistakes while creating it (some minions may not fit well, some combos are not really reliable, the Divine SpiritInner Fire combo could be included, etc.), but I just assembled this deck in 15 minutes while replying to you, and it explains what I think Priest will (try to) be.
Yeah, you can't go into a value game with Bomb Warrior, I agree with you, but you should dunk on most aggro archetypes and may have a chance with the other Quest decks.
"The speed at which you can complete this quest is going to depend a lot on the metagame": well yes, but since we don't know what the meta will be I'm just trying to be as realistic as possible and theorycraft something worthy of this name.
I definitely agree with the consensus that these types of streams kill the hype - additionally, I wouldn't/don't watch any of these streamers anyway. Now, if it was Kripp or Thjis...... well, that's a different story!
Don't want to sound jealous here, but those streams kill the best vibes hs has to offer. There is nothing more disturbing than playing against the same (let's say 3?!?) decks on the first days of a new expansion. People these days netdeck like crazy, and streams like that increase the amount of netdeck like a billion. I really hope the people will be patient enough and don't watch that stream.
On a sidenode, those guys may be good players/deckbuilders, but some of them are so incredible pesky to watch with their irritating habits and tics. (just my 2cents)
Theorycrafting Livestreams Return for Saviors of Uldum - August 1! Uldum Inn-vitational August 5!
Why are people so angry about this? I'm looking forward to these streams.
The Pepper Thread - Share Some Good Vibes!
Shaman freezes my Water Elemental on turn 4, my turn 5 Khadgar into Conjurer's Calling and get two [Hearthstone Card (Summoning Portals) Not Found]. Drop a Mountain Giant for free. WHEEEE!
Specialist Format Removed From Hearthstone Grandmasters Season 2
Nice, now maybe I can start watching some pro games again without being bored to death.
Idea for Genn and Baku Nerfs
To your question: no, it's actually the other way around. As you can see, we're just arguing from a different perspective.
You say that as long as perk exists, deck is repetitive (implying the perks are relevant by virtue of frequency)
I say as long as cards exist, deck is not repetitive (implying cards are the uttermost relevant part of the decks).
As for the nerf, they already performed killer nerfs in the past where necessary (eg QRogue). Since they didn't, i doubt necessity is there.
I also disagree Genn/Baku should be nerfed in any way possible, even worse with pushing them out of meta, which would be entirely arbitrary.
I agree with nerfing some class synergy cards if ever necessary, for some specific decks.
omega healing shaman
I wonder about the Doomhammer. It doesn't benefit from Whirlwind Tempest, and since the deck seems to be geared toward lategame value more than burning out the opponent, it seems to me that some more control tools or just proactive stuff like Feral Spirits/Thunderhead would benefit the deck more. Bogshaper also seems way too slow. With the spells already in the deck you might as well add Spirit of the Frog instead to draw more cards, earlier.
I'd also recommend Menacing Nimbus as a decent early drop that gives you something to do early on while potentially generating one of the high end elementals that your deck is running anyway.
Theorycrafting Livestreams Return for Saviors of Uldum - August 1! Uldum Inn-vitational August 5!
Feelsspoilerman
Saviors of Uldum
Damn you're right, and i want to see some dragons as well. We can only hope they were saving the dragons for last because Kibler is on the reveal stream.
Idea for Genn and Baku Nerfs
If cards are not inherently repetitive, but perk hero powers are, does it not follow that a deck with a perk hero power and cards is more repetitive than one without the perk?
If Genn and Baku decks get pushed out of the wild meta then they would cease to be a problem. I've already said as much earlier. Until that happens, the criticisms I've laid out above will continue to apply to those that persist.
The problem with nerfing G&B (hence this whole thread) is that it's hard to address these cards' strength without fundamentally changing how they work. The hero powers give very little room for adjustment, the condition is iconic and also hard to change and nerfing the minions themselves hardly affects the decks, certainly not in a way that addresses the problem. G&B already are oversized Patches. if there were an easy way to nerf these cards but keep their functionality intact I'm sure team 5 would've gone with that instead of yeeting them out of standard a year early.
Theorycrafting Livestreams Return for Saviors of Uldum - August 1! Uldum Inn-vitational August 5!
I understand they have to market the expansion. I just wish there was a way for them to do it without killing the excitement of discovering what decks are good or bad.
They should do a tournament with pro-players using only the pre-built decks instead.
omega healing shaman
Omega heal will probably give you all kinds of healing from it. As long as you can survive to 10 mana that is.
Uldum Priest Quest Reveal - Activate the Obelisk
the quest reward obviously looks good, I'm interested to see how the card plays out in priest. One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is you might want to think carefully when running Auchenai Soulpriest and/or Auchenai Phantasm along side the hero power, I believe if I am not mistaken It will deal 3 damage first and then give the +3/+3 but if the initial damage didn't kill the minion It can still buff the attack. Just something to consider for people who are thinking of building a heal priest.
Theorycrafting Livestreams Return for Saviors of Uldum - August 1! Uldum Inn-vitational August 5!
Jonathan Vigil! man... what a guy... Singing in a successful hardcore band and now streaming new expansion stuff for Blizzard <3
Activate the Obelisk
remember that you can't heal things if they aren't damaged. it's obviously not as much of a problem for priests as it is for paladins/druids, but it could definitely hinder this card's playability.
Uldum Priest Quest Reveal - Activate the Obelisk
It's a really strong payoff if you can damage yourself enough to complete it. I can foresee it potentially being weak if it's too slow to turn the tide against aggro decks and too hard to finish against control decks (if they're smart enough to not damage you)
Saviors of Uldum - 5 Pack Bundles Giveaway
Activate the Obelisk
Tempo Priest Is coming
Idea for Genn and Baku Nerfs
But despite tank up on (2) being good Odd Warrior is still out of Wild Meta. Even despite synergies with armor. So context (card pool and meta) matters. A whole lot. The perk of HP, which is the only repetitive part of these decks, is indeed just a perk. The deck themselves are not repetitive, and that's because their success is bound to cards, not by the improvement of their HP. And cards are inherently not repetitive.
I can see that the perk can feel repetitive, but it's still highly compensated by the necessity of cards.
AND by the challenge provided about deckbuilding and homebrewing. At least for the many combinations that are yet unrefined.
By nerf i mean a direct nerf to Genn and Baku themselves, harsh enough to throw their decks out of meta, which they didn't perform, suggesting it would have been overkill.
Activate the Obelisk
seriously its so easy to resolve
Uldum Priest Quest Reveal - Activate the Obelisk
Your points are fair, especially the last one: since you seem to be a person you can reason with, I'd like to reply with my opinion.
"You will complete this quest, probably around turn 6 or 7 if you get a decent hand": Uldum's quests aren't Un'Goro quests. If you take a look at the revealed ones, each one of them can be achieved in the mid game with a decent hand. Which is exactly what the devs have pushed Priest in: Anduin has received really little to no midrange support in the years, and now in 4 months we get the silence package (its strength is questionable, but it is midrange nonetheless) and minions like Grandmummy. I imagine Priest developing a midrange archetype with its power spike around turns 7-11.
I probably made some mistakes while creating it (some minions may not fit well, some combos are not really reliable, the Divine Spirit Inner Fire combo could be included, etc.), but I just assembled this deck in 15 minutes while replying to you, and it explains what I think Priest will (try to) be.
Yeah, you can't go into a value game with Bomb Warrior, I agree with you, but you should dunk on most aggro archetypes and may have a chance with the other Quest decks.
"The speed at which you can complete this quest is going to depend a lot on the metagame": well yes, but since we don't know what the meta will be I'm just trying to be as realistic as possible and theorycraft something worthy of this name.
omega healing shaman
I don't have cards to do this, I think mega-windfury and windfury with 10 mana makes a good combo.
Wild · Unknown Shaman · by zznq · 7 years, 1 month ago
Theorycrafting Livestreams Return for Saviors of Uldum - August 1! Uldum Inn-vitational August 5!
I definitely agree with the consensus that these types of streams kill the hype - additionally, I wouldn't/don't watch any of these streamers anyway. Now, if it was Kripp or Thjis...... well, that's a different story!
Whirlwind Tempest + Windfury (I like heals)
It works like control, you might have a minion on board to play whirlwind tempest + windfury to make big damg.
Saviors of Uldum - 5 Pack Bundles Giveaway
Supreme Archaeology, gonna have some fun with that one + Plot Twist
[Myth Busted] A cultist in the Crystalsong Forest
Ok whomever wrote this is a genius! I was so excited visualizing this thing going down!
Theorycrafting Livestreams Return for Saviors of Uldum - August 1! Uldum Inn-vitational August 5!
Don't want to sound jealous here, but those streams kill the best vibes hs has to offer. There is nothing more disturbing than playing against the same (let's say 3?!?) decks on the first days of a new expansion. People these days netdeck like crazy, and streams like that increase the amount of netdeck like a billion. I really hope the people will be patient enough and don't watch that stream.
On a sidenode, those guys may be good players/deckbuilders, but some of them are so incredible pesky to watch with their irritating habits and tics. (just my 2cents)
July Saviors of Uldum Hearthstone Pack Giveaway
Most exited for expired merchant in wild gl everyone