I also laid out exactly why they are NOT more repetitive than other decks. YOU are ignoring my argument. ;)
tl;dr: Odd/Even decks still have to play cards every turn. Only exceptions, turn-2 and turn-1, respectively. How's that repetitive?
The rest is an argument about powerlevel, and it IS unrelated to repetitiveness.
And yes, i seriously think it was the only point about HoF, not because the decks felt somehow boring to play against.
And their choice about HoF is proof of the fact they don't even consider the mechanic as wrong or too powerful in the void, just too powerful for Standard.
Now, fair fair enough if you don't agree. Just don't take my silence as having actually counterargued my points.
Peace.
He didn't ignore your argument, he rebutted it by making the claim that consistency is repetitive - odd/even decks have no possibility of having their build around win conditions at the bottom of their decks, so the scenario where that doesn't happen repeats more often.
EDIT: consistency is only realized by class synergy.
Even Priest sports the same perk as Even Shaman, yet the former has no consistency.
So Genn/Baku do not provide consistency, they only provide a perk.
If consistency was the base of the argument, it's proven wrong about the mechanic itself. It holds true only in specific class/decks.
Now, beyond consistency.
The real repetitiveness of Odd/Even is exclusively in their perk, not in their gameplay.
The gameplay is identical to that of any other deck, it's not repetitive at all, and since that is what actually makes the difference (in realizing the consistency potentially served by the HP), then the deck as a whole is not really repetitive.
It's just a perception: focusing on the perk, and extending that perception to the whole deck.
So, i reiterate, if ever an Odd/Even deck turns out to be problematic, because of consistency, that's because of the synergy provided by the class, and that's what should be nerfed, in case.
Ugh this again? I really don’t see the point in doing this, just let everyone play and make decks when the expansion releases. And if I remember right, they did the same thing with the adventure
I totally expect some kind of tempo aggressive priest to born in wild. This quest could find his place - remember that this is one kind of quest you do not have to play at turn 1, and that you can easily mulligan away in some match-up - if the meta is right.
I also laid out exactly why they are NOT more repetitive than other decks. YOU are ignoring my argument. ;)
tl;dr: Odd/Even decks still have to play cards every turn. Only exceptions, turn-2 and turn-1, respectively. How's that repetitive?
The rest is an argument about powerlevel, and it IS unrelated to repetitiveness.
And yes, i seriously think it was the only point about HoF, not because the decks felt somehow boring to play against.
And their choice about HoF is proof of the fact they don't even consider the mechanic as wrong or too powerful in the void, just too powerful for Standard.
Now, fair fair enough if you don't agree. Just don't take my silence as having actually counterargued my points.
Peace.
He didn't ignore your argument, he rebutted it by making the claim that consistency is repetitive - odd/even decks have no possibility of having their build around win conditions at the bottom of their decks, so the scenario where that doesn't happen repeats more often.
I'd say you're raising a new argument there rather than actually addressing the point I was making and that my post already contains the rebuttal your argument: "if not necessarily to the same extent".
That's not a rebuttal, that's a claim, and one that I disagree with. The same logic does not apply at all. It could be argued that Big Priest is being addressed due to the extreme amount of critique towards it and the pressure the player base is putting on the developers regarding the deck. That is supported by that Blizzard has been hesitant to actually do anything about Big Priest so far, and seems to be stalling to see whether SoU might fix it with the murloc mass transform card, alternate tools for priest and other solutions.
Edit: I also have to say that I think it's disingenuous to frame the premature rotation of Genn and Baku, an unprecedented move by the dev team and arguably the most impactful balance change to the standard meta, as just some minor little tweak. Removing two cards and thereby killing half a dozen top decks cannot be reasonably compared to the recent round of buffs. I stand by my claim that the G&B rotation is to be read as an admission by the devs that these cards are too impactful by design and can't reasonably be fixed by a simple nerf.
You're conflating the importance of issue and the means taken to fix it. The two have a positive correlation but are not the same, and to draw the parallel to how big the issue is in Wild is an inexact argument as well, so while I think either one might be acceptable, to combine the two into a single argument makes the margin of error too great.
That the cards can't be fixed with a nerf is a design issue, not a power level one.
You not agreeing with the argument doesn't make it not an argument. If you want to make *that* case you have to actually substantively address the argument and point out where it's fallacious. The devs have stated ad nauseam that their goal isn't just to keep the game balanced, but also "fresh" "fun" "not stale", etc. By most people's standards that excludes high levels of repetitiveness.
Is the discussion about whether or not the cards should be nerfed or will be nerfed? You've conflated the two a couple of times, committing an appeal to authority.
Actually, this is quite false for Even decks: you consider them repetitive because they are going to Hero Power every Odd turn, right?
Well, just look at it as a bonus. Exclude the Hero Power, consider it an extra, what is left? Well, what you get is a normal deck, playing normal cards, with a constant bonus in Odd turns. But how is that actually repetitive? How is that more repetitive than Murloc Shaman, or Mech Hunter, or Big Priest, or Quest Mage?
I can give you that the thing holds more truth for Odd decks, but at the end of the day, their Hero Power is still a bonus for them, a Tempo move to optimize turns, that can never get higher priority than normal playable cards in their hand.
Genn and baku are cards that provide their effects without their cards having to be drawn, let alone played. From turn one, every single game, you get a permanent "bonus" that considerably improves what you as a player can do independent of any cards you drew. That's the crux of the design problem: hearthstone is a card game balanced around having to draw and play your cards and these two just shit all over the fundamental balancing mechanism of the game, from the start of the game, every game.
The closest analogy there is in the game are quests, but there you have to: a) Sacrifice a card in hand b) Play the quest ASAP c) Complete the condition of the quest, typically takes 4+ turns if not more (and d) Play the quest reward).
Genn and Baku are like starting the game with a hero card active. The fact that they require some awkward deckbuilding choices doesn't make up for the fact that once the game has started they are the pinnacle of reliability and predictability and, dare I say it, repetitiveness.
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So how is that repetitive actually? Their games are still bound to playing cards, first and foremost, despite the synergies with Hero Powers, they cannot win without playing cards in the best way possible. Cards still define their game.
Odd/Even decks just provide a bonus based on hero powers, but they are not repetitive, as their game is still bound to playing cards.
It's repetitive because it gives players a draw-independent edge at the outset that they can build their deck to capitalise on. There, now I'm repeating myself. See how boring that is?
That's consistency, not repetitiveness. And yes, consistency can be repetitive, but inconsistency is an unfun consequence of unhealthy RNG, and a bad way to break repetitiveness. Many Baku/Genn decks are repetitive, especially Odd Paladin, but that's not because of or inherent to the even/odd mechanics.
I don't think it will be Zilliax-level because of Zilliax' Lifesteal and Magnetic part. Also Zilliax can be cheated from deck and graveyard and dooesn't lose any keywords. This is just 6/6 with no keywords if it is summoned from deck or resurrect effects. Not flexible enough to be like Zilliax but still a cool minion.
I did´t dare to start MTG Arena. Had been a Pro player 20 years ago and still have the real collection. So i would not be able to stand casual level long but also won´t pay for something i own. LoL.
Yeah, even if you don't watch, most people will. Last time it was already discovered that bomb warrior was op and the first day everyone played the same deck.
yep, golden hero power and better than just spell, but still not so cool for my opinion. For me, golden minions always better (heroes ofc top 1, but no new heroes) than any spell, except spells who summon you golden minions and other things like that.
Sorry, but your argument about boring is not better than mine. You are basically saying it is boring because you find it boring. I don't find it boring at all tbh, so your argument falls there.
I laid out exactly in what way Genn and Baku substantively differ from other cards in hearthstone and how that would result in repetive gameplay that significantly differs from, say, a consistent aggro deck.
Sure you may disagree that this repetitiveness is boring, but to ignore the difference and go "that's just your muhpinion" is to ignore the substance of the argument.
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You are merging the argument of the powerlevel with that of repetitiveness, and that's a fallacy.
They aren't unrelated arguments. If G&B were unplayably underpowered they wouldn't be a problem even if they were still inherently flawed by design because they'd never show up. You can take the argument one step further and say that it's precisely this repetitive card-independent play pattern that makes these cards powerful.
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I substantiated my point by showing you there is nothing repetitive about the actual gameplay of Odd/Even decks.
No you didn't. You named a bunch of different decks that you think are repetitive, but you did nothing to argue your case. You've barely presented it. How is Mech Hunter especially repetitive? How is it cheating, what established "rules" is it subverting? What are your criteria for repetitiveness?
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The powerlevel is obviously there, i won't even try to deny that, but then again, look at the tier levels, and you will see that t1 is populated by other decks, not just Odd/Even.
The reason why they Hofed Odd/Even in Standard was not because the decks gameplay was boring, but because their presence was, for Standard's standard, ie they knew Odd/Even would have dominated the meta for 2 years straight, and that's not acceptable in Standard.
Now the same criterion cannot be applied to Wild, because Wild meta is inherently stale, and only slowly/rarely evolves.
I'm not going to argue that performance wasn't a factor, as I laid out earlier even a bad design wouldn't cause problems if no one played it. But do you really, honestly think they would have prematurely hof-ed those two if people weren't bitterly complaining about them ruining the game? The Standard Baku/Genn meta was rather diverse if you look at the number of playable classes and decks, but a large number of people hated how many of those decks were G&B decks, presumably because they didn't like how those matches tended to play out.
I also laid out exactly why they are NOT more repetitive than other decks. YOU are ignoring my argument. ;)
tl;dr: Odd/Even decks still have to play cards every turn. Only exceptions, turn-2 and turn-1, respectively. How's that repetitive?
The rest is an argument about powerlevel, and it IS unrelated to repetitiveness.
And yes, i seriously think it was the only point about HoF, not because the decks felt somehow boring to play against.
And their choice about HoF is proof of the fact they don't even consider the mechanic as wrong or too powerful in the void, just too powerful for Standard.
Now, fair fair enough if you don't agree. Just don't take my silence as having actually counterargued my points.
For those saying 15 health is harder to achieve than it seems, I'd like to mark the fact that the card just says "Restore 15 health", without specifying a target.
it will be interesting seeing a deck than can both run a lot of healing, and a lot of strong minions. priest is looking better this expansion than in others.
Idea for Genn and Baku Nerfs
EDIT: consistency is only realized by class synergy.
Even Priest sports the same perk as Even Shaman, yet the former has no consistency.
So Genn/Baku do not provide consistency, they only provide a perk.
If consistency was the base of the argument, it's proven wrong about the mechanic itself. It holds true only in specific class/decks.
Now, beyond consistency.
The real repetitiveness of Odd/Even is exclusively in their perk, not in their gameplay.
The gameplay is identical to that of any other deck, it's not repetitive at all, and since that is what actually makes the difference (in realizing the consistency potentially served by the HP), then the deck as a whole is not really repetitive.
It's just a perception: focusing on the perk, and extending that perception to the whole deck.
So, i reiterate, if ever an Odd/Even deck turns out to be problematic, because of consistency, that's because of the synergy provided by the class, and that's what should be nerfed, in case.
Not the core of the mechanic.
Specialist Format Removed From Hearthstone Grandmasters Season 2
I mean it cured my insomnia. So maybe it wasn't all that bad...
Theorycrafting Livestreams Return for Saviors of Uldum - August 1! Uldum Inn-vitational August 5!
Ugh this again? I really don’t see the point in doing this, just let everyone play and make decks when the expansion releases. And if I remember right, they did the same thing with the adventure
Saviors of Uldum - 5 Pack Bundles Giveaway
Well, let me put it like this: "I'm a big fan of the heavyweights on the battlefield." So it has to be Colossus of the Moon
Uldum Priest Quest Reveal - Activate the Obelisk
I totally expect some kind of tempo aggressive priest to born in wild. This quest could find his place - remember that this is one kind of quest you do not have to play at turn 1, and that you can easily mulligan away in some match-up - if the meta is right.
Turn 1 rope?
I met a guy on ladder with nickname called something like zzzZzzzZzzzZzzz a year ago. I believe that his T1 rope was some sort of role playing:)
Saviors of Uldum - 5 Pack Bundles Giveaway
The card Dark Pharaoh Tekahn is my favorite because I want to create a Zoolock based on Lackeys.
I want to experiment with some synergies of them.
Idea for Genn and Baku Nerfs
He didn't ignore your argument, he rebutted it by making the claim that consistency is repetitive - odd/even decks have no possibility of having their build around win conditions at the bottom of their decks, so the scenario where that doesn't happen repeats more often.
Frostfire
My all time favourite one, yaay.
Idea for Genn and Baku Nerfs
That's not a rebuttal, that's a claim, and one that I disagree with. The same logic does not apply at all. It could be argued that Big Priest is being addressed due to the extreme amount of critique towards it and the pressure the player base is putting on the developers regarding the deck. That is supported by that Blizzard has been hesitant to actually do anything about Big Priest so far, and seems to be stalling to see whether SoU might fix it with the murloc mass transform card, alternate tools for priest and other solutions.
You're conflating the importance of issue and the means taken to fix it. The two have a positive correlation but are not the same, and to draw the parallel to how big the issue is in Wild is an inexact argument as well, so while I think either one might be acceptable, to combine the two into a single argument makes the margin of error too great.
That the cards can't be fixed with a nerf is a design issue, not a power level one.
Is the discussion about whether or not the cards should be nerfed or will be nerfed? You've conflated the two a couple of times, committing an appeal to authority.
That's consistency, not repetitiveness. And yes, consistency can be repetitive, but inconsistency is an unfun consequence of unhealthy RNG, and a bad way to break repetitiveness. Many Baku/Genn decks are repetitive, especially Odd Paladin, but that's not because of or inherent to the even/odd mechanics.
New Neutral Minion - Siamat
I don't think it will be Zilliax-level because of Zilliax' Lifesteal and Magnetic part. Also Zilliax can be cheated from deck and graveyard and dooesn't lose any keywords. This is just 6/6 with no keywords if it is summoned from deck or resurrect effects. Not flexible enough to be like Zilliax but still a cool minion.
Is MtG:A F2P?
I did´t dare to start MTG Arena. Had been a Pro player 20 years ago and still have the real collection. So i would not be able to stand casual level long but also won´t pay for something i own. LoL.
Private Messages stopped appearing
Thx flux!
Theorycrafting Livestreams Return for Saviors of Uldum - August 1! Uldum Inn-vitational August 5!
Agree also, did not like these last time. Took away some of the newness of the expansion.
Theorycrafting Livestreams Return for Saviors of Uldum - August 1! Uldum Inn-vitational August 5!
Yeah, even if you don't watch, most people will. Last time it was already discovered that bomb warrior was op and the first day everyone played the same deck.
Uldum Priest Quest Reveal - Activate the Obelisk
yep, golden hero power and better than just spell, but still not so cool for my opinion. For me, golden minions always better (heroes ofc top 1, but no new heroes) than any spell, except spells who summon you golden minions and other things like that.
Uldum Legendary Card Reveal - King Phaoris
Too bad the video doesn't make this look great - the minions summoned were so bad LUL
Uldum Card Reveal - Wrapped Golem
same here ... nothing particular, feels like a lot other cards other posters mention ... a big meh
Idea for Genn and Baku Nerfs
I also laid out exactly why they are NOT more repetitive than other decks. YOU are ignoring my argument. ;)
tl;dr: Odd/Even decks still have to play cards every turn. Only exceptions, turn-2 and turn-1, respectively. How's that repetitive?
The rest is an argument about powerlevel, and it IS unrelated to repetitiveness.
And yes, i seriously think it was the only point about HoF, not because the decks felt somehow boring to play against.
And their choice about HoF is proof of the fact they don't even consider the mechanic as wrong or too powerful in the void, just too powerful for Standard.
Now, fair fair enough if you don't agree. Just don't take my silence as having actually counterargued my points.
Peace.
Theorycrafting Livestreams Return for Saviors of Uldum - August 1! Uldum Inn-vitational August 5!
I agree, I rather try out stuff before it's been played to death by streamers already
Uldum Priest Quest Reveal - Activate the Obelisk
For those saying 15 health is harder to achieve than it seems, I'd like to mark the fact that the card just says "Restore 15 health", without specifying a target.
You can heal your own face (Divine Hymn, Radiance LUL) with activators like Crystallizer or Ornery Tortoise, heal minions in general with Circle of Healing (Damaged Stegotron but especially Injured Blademaster can help a lot) and even your opponent's face with Hench-Clan Shadequill (didn't see this coming, huh?).
And I'm not even counting the hero power which, now, becomes a really powerful tool.
This quest is strong guys
Theorycrafting Livestreams Return for Saviors of Uldum - August 1! Uldum Inn-vitational August 5!
I really don't like these inn-vitations. they kinda take the hype away from day one of the expansions release.
Uldum Priest Quest Reveal - Activate the Obelisk
It particularly fits Reborn Priest, considering Circle of Healing and Divine Hymn.
I wouldn't mind dropping this one as my Quest.
Uldum Priest Quest Reveal - Activate the Obelisk
it will be interesting seeing a deck than can both run a lot of healing, and a lot of strong minions. priest is looking better this expansion than in others.
Uldum Priest Quest Reveal - Activate the Obelisk
Yes I agree. Junk card totally unplayable.
.... if you are playing poker where it wouldn't be valid. In Hearthstone it's bloody great!