Sorry, but your argument about boring is not better than mine. You are basically saying it is boring because you find it boring. I don't find it boring at all tbh, so your argument falls there.
I laid out exactly in what way Genn and Baku substantively differ from other cards in hearthstone and how that would result in repetitive gameplay that significantly differs from, say, a consistent aggro deck.
Sure you may disagree that this repetitiveness is boring, but to ignore the difference and go "that's just your muhpinion" is to ignore the substance of the argument.
You are merging the argument of the powerlevel with that of repetitiveness, and that's a fallacy.
They aren't unrelated arguments. If G&B were unplayably underpowered they wouldn't be a problem even if they were still inherently flawed by design because they'd never show up. You can take the argument one step further and say that it's precisely this repetitive card-independent play pattern that makes these cards powerful.
I substantiated my point by showing you there is nothing repetitive about the actual gameplay of Odd/Even decks.
No you didn't. You named a bunch of different decks that you think are repetitive, but you did nothing to argue your case. You've barely presented it. How is Mech Hunter especially repetitive? How is it cheating, what established "rules" is it subverting? What are your criteria for repetitiveness?
The powerlevel is obviously there, i won't even try to deny that, but then again, look at the tier levels, and you will see that t1 is populated by other decks, not just Odd/Even.
The reason why they Hofed Odd/Even in Standard was not because the decks gameplay was boring, but because their presence was, for Standard's standard, ie they knew Odd/Even would have dominated the meta for 2 years straight, and that's not acceptable in Standard.
Now the same criterion cannot be applied to Wild, because Wild meta is inherently stale, and only slowly/rarely evolves.
I'm not going to argue that performance wasn't a factor, as I laid out earlier even a bad design wouldn't cause problems if no one played it. But do you really, honestly think they would have prematurely hof-ed those two if people weren't bitterly complaining about them ruining the game? The Standard Baku/Genn meta was rather diverse if you look at the number of playable classes and decks, but a large number of people hated how many of those decks were G&B decks, presumably because they didn't like how those matches tended to play out.
that mage secret is the bomb. 3 damage is so much on turn 3, this is like explosive trap, but better and for a more defensive class. this card is 5 stars.
the legendary looks very good, he is versatile, and is bound to find a place in some kind of tempo/midrange deck. he almost reminds me of ziliax, but less good, I would give him between 3 and 4 stars.
*edit* I just noticed that you get to chose which 2 upgrades he gets, so he is definitely 5 stars
Genn and baku are cards that provide their effects without their cards having to be drawn, let alone played. From turn one, every single game, you get a permanent "bonus" that considerably improves what you as a player can do independent of any cards you drew. That's the crux of the design problem: hearthstone is a card game balanced around having to draw and play your cards and these two just shit all over the fundamental balancing mechanism of the game, from the start of the game, every game.
You have to sacrofice your deckbuilding possiblity and limit your deck choice to either odd or even. It's balanced, just adapt your playstyle and get better.
Odd pally has a weakness early boardclear, devolve. Just wait till the expansion settles and i guess u will stop crying over Odd than more about our new mage overlords with their Quest and Vargoth. :D
This card seems like it could be one of the best Hero Power transformations. I expect this to be a really great card. The question remains whether restoring 15HP is easy enough to do and whether it's worth running the 'quest' side of the card to have a weaker opening hand. I'm also not sure there are any Priest decks that could benefit from this enough.
The fact that it's worded as a battlecry makes it so much better with other battlecry enablers like Brann, the new shaman Quest or Shudderwock though. If it were worded as choose twice it wouldn't even synergise with Fandral Staghelm AFAIK, let alone any non-druid cards.
You not agreeing with the argument doesn't make it not an argument. If you want to make *that* case you have to actually substantively address the argument and point out where it's fallacious. The devs have stated ad nauseam that their goal isn't just to keep the game balanced, but also "fresh" "fun" "not stale", etc. By most people's standards that excludes high levels of repetitiveness.
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Actually, this is quite false for Even decks: you consider them repetitive because they are going to Hero Power every Odd turn, right?
Well, just look at it as a bonus. Exclude the Hero Power, consider it an extra, what is left? Well, what you get is a normal deck, playing normal cards, with a constant bonus in Odd turns. But how is that actually repetitive? How is that more repetitive than Murloc Shaman, or Mech Hunter, or Big Priest, or Quest Mage?
I can give you that the thing holds more truth for Odd decks, but at the end of the day, their Hero Power is still a bonus for them, a Tempo move to optimize turns, that can never get higher priority than normal playable cards in their hand.
Genn and baku are cards that provide their effects without their cards having to be drawn, let alone played. From turn one, every single game, you get a permanent "bonus" that considerably improves what you as a player can do independent of any cards you drew. That's the crux of the design problem: hearthstone is a card game balanced around having to draw and play your cards and these two just shit all over the fundamental balancing mechanism of the game, from the start of the game, every game.
The closest analogy there is in the game are quests, but there you have to: a) Sacrifice a card in hand b) Play the quest ASAP c) Complete the condition of the quest, typically takes 4+ turns if not more (and d) Play the quest reward).
Genn and Baku are like starting the game with a hero card active. The fact that they require some awkward deckbuilding choices doesn't make up for the fact that once the game has started they are the pinnacle of reliability and predictability and, dare I say it, repetitiveness.
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So how is that repetitive actually? Their games are still bound to playing cards, first and foremost, despite the synergies with Hero Powers, they cannot win without playing cards in the best way possible. Cards still define their game.
Odd/Even decks just provide a bonus based on hero powers, but they are not repetitive, as their game is still bound to playing cards.
It's repetitive because it gives players a draw-independent edge at the outset that they can build their deck to capitalise on. There, now I'm repeating myself. See how boring that is?
No one is saying that these decks can win without playing a single card, that's a bad attempt at reductio ad absurdum. The argument is that their core gameplay is far LESS dependent on draws, especially in the early game when cards/draws matter the most, because of the edge they get from improved/discounted hero powers.
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Same goes with the predictability argument. It's actually worse: what deck is NOT quite predictable in the meta? Is a deck actually predictable because it slams totems every Odd turns, or because you know their decklist and what they can play?
Any deck that has a fixed start-of-the-game advantage it can capitalise on is *more* predictable than a deck that only gains advantages by drawing and playing cards. Do quests suffer from the same problem, to a lesser extent? Sure. Would G&B be less predictable if you had to meet some in-game condition before they went active: absolutely.
Sorry, but your argument about boring is not better than mine. You are basically saying it is boring because you find it boring. I don't find it boring at all tbh, so your argument falls there.
About predictability due to deckbuilding, how is that different to any other deck? eg Big Priest? The deck is purposedly built to abuse resurrection, and the opponent can predict what's going on. Unless you are telling me that predicting an extra totem with 100% makes the whole deck more predictable, which is obviously false. If that was true, if decks were really that predictable, they wouldn't be so strong as to stay t1 (BP is t2/3).
I substantiated my point by showing you there is nothing repetitive about the actual gameplay of Odd/Even decks. Not more than any other meta deck. The bonus is indeed an edge, and it's a minor part of their gameplay.
You are also merging the argument of the powerlevel with that of repetitiveness, and that's a logical fallacy.
The powerlevel is obviously there, i won't even try to deny that, but then again, look at the tier levels, and you will see that t1 is populated by other decks, not just Odd/Even.
Finally, the reason why they HOFed Odd/Even in Standard was not because the decks gameplay was boring, but because their presence in the meta was, for Standard's standards, ie they knew Odd/Even would have dominated the meta for 2 years straight, and that's not acceptable in Standard.
Now the same criterion cannot be applied to Wild, because Wild meta is inherently stale, and only slowly/rarely evolves.
PS: we're also considering Odd/Even as if they represented one deck or one archetype, which is false. We are talking of a whole set of decks, most of which don't even pass the meta test (including the Standard-infamous Odd Warrior). Hence killing the mechanic is just wrong.
Nerf individual synergies (eg. Cold Blood nerf), if ever a specific deck turns out to be too popular/powerful.
But Baku the Mooneater and Genn Greymane have nothing wrong per se, besides the field of personal taste, which i respect, but you can't build an argument solely on that.
Activate the Obelisk for me! I had really gotten into playing Priest before the rotation, so this expansion has been rough. Looking forward to Anduin getting back in the mix!
While it won't be the fastest Quest to complete, the payoff is pretty significant since it looks like Priest will be able to build relatively sticky boards of high Health minions. Those minions can be healed if your opponent doesn't have enough Attack on the board to clear them cleanly, and their high Health makes them ever-present Inner Fire threats. I don't think Priest will rule the meta, but it's going to be more dangerous than I thought. Plagues could be a pretty hard counter to what Priest is trying to do.
I remember, not too long ago, watching a full day of Warrior v Warrior mirrors. I remember seeing the commentators give one of those winners interviews to Dog after a long match and he just seemed so bored and disgusted. I felt the same way. After that, I never bothered to watch the rest of the season.
Although I like the new highlander cards a lot, especially Sir Finley of the Sands and Elise the Enlightened, my favorite new card so far has to be Plague of Murlocs, just because it's a great counter to Big Priest decks that are ruining the Wild format for me and a lot of other people. I hope other classes can get cool new tools like this to deal with big minions and resurrect mechanics and be allowed to play the control game again.
You can already run Pilfer, which guarantees an activated Fence on 2, but with no minion. This is less consistent, but has a 1/2 body.
It's a balance I suppose, although maybe you'd run both.
Point well taken.
I am assuming you're 90% likely to get a non-Rogue reborn card. Not sure if that's right... just my impression thus far.
Getting a neutral reborn card wouldn't activate Underbelly Fence and Vendetta though, it has to be a card from another class. We'll have to wait until all the SoU cards are revealed to calculate the exact odds but it's probably going to be closer to 50-50 whether you get an out-of-class reborn or a rogue/neutral one. (At the moment it's 7 neutral, 0 rogue, and 3 other-class reborns, so 7/10 of not activating burgle synergies).
Great they removed the format people hated while still improving upon what old "Conquest" did wrong.
With the Shield phase, op decks will now ring the alarm bells around the pro scene as well (before some broken decks were just banned all the time leading to no tournament appearance even though they were insane).
Since players are not required to win with all of the decks it is not possible to bring lineup targeting one specific deck (like Roger in the Championship).
Because not all the decks need to win you can also have tech decks now. For example, a Mech Hunter that gets played only if the opponent has slower heavy decks etc.
Specialist Format Removed From Hearthstone Grandmasters Season 2
you'll still only see the same classes being played. Now you just won't get to see the fancy tech these decks could bring.
Disappointed. I like Specialist format a lot and tuned in to a lot of streams.
Idea for Genn and Baku Nerfs
I laid out exactly in what way Genn and Baku substantively differ from other cards in hearthstone and how that would result in repetitive gameplay that significantly differs from, say, a consistent aggro deck.
Sure you may disagree that this repetitiveness is boring, but to ignore the difference and go "that's just your muhpinion" is to ignore the substance of the argument.
They aren't unrelated arguments. If G&B were unplayably underpowered they wouldn't be a problem even if they were still inherently flawed by design because they'd never show up. You can take the argument one step further and say that it's precisely this repetitive card-independent play pattern that makes these cards powerful.
No you didn't. You named a bunch of different decks that you think are repetitive, but you did nothing to argue your case. You've barely presented it. How is Mech Hunter especially repetitive? How is it cheating, what established "rules" is it subverting? What are your criteria for repetitiveness?
I'm not going to argue that performance wasn't a factor, as I laid out earlier even a bad design wouldn't cause problems if no one played it. But do you really, honestly think they would have prematurely hof-ed those two if people weren't bitterly complaining about them ruining the game? The Standard Baku/Genn meta was rather diverse if you look at the number of playable classes and decks, but a large number of people hated how many of those decks were G&B decks, presumably because they didn't like how those matches tended to play out.
Specialist Format Removed From Hearthstone Grandmasters Season 2
oh, finally, seeing only 3 classes being played is so boring, and the warrior mirror match.... ResidentSleeper
Two Uldum Card Reveals - Siamat (Legendary) and Flame Ward (Mage Secret)
that mage secret is the bomb. 3 damage is so much on turn 3, this is like explosive trap, but better and for a more defensive class. this card is 5 stars.
the legendary looks very good, he is versatile, and is bound to find a place in some kind of tempo/midrange deck. he almost reminds me of ziliax, but less good, I would give him between 3 and 4 stars.
*edit* I just noticed that you get to chose which 2 upgrades he gets, so he is definitely 5 stars
Saviors of Uldum - 5 Pack Bundles Giveaway
Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron is my favorite card so far. I like unpredictable cards because they add a bit of fun to the game.
Idea for Genn and Baku Nerfs
You have to sacrofice your deckbuilding possiblity and limit your deck choice to either odd or even. It's balanced, just adapt your playstyle and get better.
Odd pally has a weakness early boardclear, devolve. Just wait till the expansion settles and i guess u will stop crying over Odd than more about our new mage overlords with their Quest and Vargoth. :D
Uldum Priest Quest Reveal - Activate the Obelisk
This card seems like it could be one of the best Hero Power transformations. I expect this to be a really great card. The question remains whether restoring 15HP is easy enough to do and whether it's worth running the 'quest' side of the card to have a weaker opening hand. I'm also not sure there are any Priest decks that could benefit from this enough.
New Neutral Minion - Siamat
The fact that it's worded as a battlecry makes it so much better with other battlecry enablers like Brann, the new shaman Quest or Shudderwock though. If it were worded as choose twice it wouldn't even synergise with Fandral Staghelm AFAIK, let alone any non-druid cards.
Idea for Genn and Baku Nerfs
Sorry, but your argument about boring is not better than mine. You are basically saying it is boring because you find it boring. I don't find it boring at all tbh, so your argument falls there.
About predictability due to deckbuilding, how is that different to any other deck? eg Big Priest? The deck is purposedly built to abuse resurrection, and the opponent can predict what's going on. Unless you are telling me that predicting an extra totem with 100% makes the whole deck more predictable, which is obviously false. If that was true, if decks were really that predictable, they wouldn't be so strong as to stay t1 (BP is t2/3).
I substantiated my point by showing you there is nothing repetitive about the actual gameplay of Odd/Even decks. Not more than any other meta deck. The bonus is indeed an edge, and it's a minor part of their gameplay.
You are also merging the argument of the powerlevel with that of repetitiveness, and that's a logical fallacy.
The powerlevel is obviously there, i won't even try to deny that, but then again, look at the tier levels, and you will see that t1 is populated by other decks, not just Odd/Even.
Finally, the reason why they HOFed Odd/Even in Standard was not because the decks gameplay was boring, but because their presence in the meta was, for Standard's standards, ie they knew Odd/Even would have dominated the meta for 2 years straight, and that's not acceptable in Standard.
Now the same criterion cannot be applied to Wild, because Wild meta is inherently stale, and only slowly/rarely evolves.
PS: we're also considering Odd/Even as if they represented one deck or one archetype, which is false. We are talking of a whole set of decks, most of which don't even pass the meta test (including the Standard-infamous Odd Warrior). Hence killing the mechanic is just wrong.
But Baku the Mooneater and Genn Greymane have nothing wrong per se, besides the field of personal taste, which i respect, but you can't build an argument solely on that.
Saviors of Uldum - 5 Pack Bundles Giveaway
Activate the Obelisk for me! I had really gotten into playing Priest before the rotation, so this expansion has been rough. Looking forward to Anduin getting back in the mix!
Uldum Priest Quest Reveal - Activate the Obelisk
While it won't be the fastest Quest to complete, the payoff is pretty significant since it looks like Priest will be able to build relatively sticky boards of high Health minions. Those minions can be healed if your opponent doesn't have enough Attack on the board to clear them cleanly, and their high Health makes them ever-present Inner Fire threats. I don't think Priest will rule the meta, but it's going to be more dangerous than I thought. Plagues could be a pretty hard counter to what Priest is trying to do.
Specialist Format Removed From Hearthstone Grandmasters Season 2
I remember, not too long ago, watching a full day of Warrior v Warrior mirrors. I remember seeing the commentators give one of those winners interviews to Dog after a long match and he just seemed so bored and disgusted. I felt the same way. After that, I never bothered to watch the rest of the season.
Saviors of Uldum - 5 Pack Bundles Giveaway
Although I like the new highlander cards a lot, especially Sir Finley of the Sands and Elise the Enlightened, my favorite new card so far has to be Plague of Murlocs, just because it's a great counter to Big Priest decks that are ruining the Wild format for me and a lot of other people. I hope other classes can get cool new tools like this to deal with big minions and resurrect mechanics and be allowed to play the control game again.
Saviors of Uldum - 5 Pack Bundles Giveaway
Reno the Relicologist
Well, because he's Reno!!
New Rogue Minion - Pharaoh Cat
Getting a neutral reborn card wouldn't activate Underbelly Fence and Vendetta though, it has to be a card from another class. We'll have to wait until all the SoU cards are revealed to calculate the exact odds but it's probably going to be closer to 50-50 whether you get an out-of-class reborn or a rogue/neutral one. (At the moment it's 7 neutral, 0 rogue, and 3 other-class reborns, so 7/10 of not activating burgle synergies).
New Rogue Minion - Sahket Sapper
THICC
New Neutral Minion - Siamat
Sometimes I wish no keyword were class-specific.
Uldum Priest Quest Reveal - Activate the Obelisk
It gives you golden hero power though and will be animated everytime you take a look on your quest progression I think.
Specialist Format Removed From Hearthstone Grandmasters Season 2
Great they removed the format people hated while still improving upon what old "Conquest" did wrong.
Uldum Priest Quest Reveal - Activate the Obelisk
"Restore 3 health. If you target a minion, also give it +3/+3."
It's all written there.
Specialist Format Removed From Hearthstone Grandmasters Season 2
Ah, yeah. i misread that. Still stand by my suggestion for improving Specialist though..
Specialist Format Removed From Hearthstone Grandmasters Season 2
What you don't like to watch 2 hour warrior mirrors? Sorry for sarcasm...
Saviors of Uldum - 5 Pack Bundles Giveaway
Pharaoh Cat because art is so cute <3
Uldum Priest Quest Reveal - Activate the Obelisk
This looks like it should be fairly easy to complete. Pretty powerful stuff once you do. I can see Midrange Reborn Quest priest starting to form.
Uldum Priest Quest Reveal - Activate the Obelisk
Wording is pretty clear. The hero power has a bonus effect if you target a minion, so it will give +3/+3 to a minion always.