I like how the devs are finally making use of the sleep mechanic (I have seen this being done in fan-made cards). The card is bad though, because for +1/+1 stats over a vanilla statted body you might get a minion, which won't attack for 2 or more turns and you will lose tempo because of it. This is why I have a hard time seeing this being used even in arena.
I think it will perform well enough in arena, you usually dont want to just rely on luck and leave a minion like that alive, so you try to trade into it anyway most of the time. But yeah, overall, not a great card.
It would be great if it has Taunt and 5/6 stats. This mechanic fits taunt minions more in my opinion.
I wouldn't exactly say Mana Cyclone, CC, and Dr. Boom are cards that are indicative of shying away from power creep. Mana Cyclone already sees play in wild Quest Mage ladder, CC is still extremely good midrange/early late game pressure, and a permanent rush aura (even when not potentially highrolling into desirable hero powers) is extremely potent in grindy attrition games. I've yet to be swayed that strong cards will not eventually compete against many viable odd/even decks. I feel that this debate is just focused on personal dislike of the playstyle as opposed to legitimate reasons why T5 should do a massive power check for multiple decks in an eternal ccg format.
I can't but help you're ignoring what the purpose of wild was intended for. It was for players to play whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted (again with tier 0 caveats). Saying that any card, deck, or playstyle is going to be wild's problem forever is pretty irrelevant when considering what an eternal format is. EVERY card game has a format where you are allowed to use all of your cards and if you didn't want to play against those than most of those card games also had another format to escape such strategies. Why are you so intent on making HS break this mold by essentially doing balance passes on decks in a mode where that isn't intended to happen, solely for the personal preference of just a portion of the format's players? I find this perspective especially annoying when it is spread by players who never were veteran players in any card game prior to Hearthstone. Changing cards in every format because you don't like them actually doesn't follow the CCG model that games like MtG and Yu-Gi-Oh ultimately followed. You want to play with any and all cards in the game? You can do that in one format. You don't want this? You can also do that in another format. Hitting everything with the nerf hammer, even in an eternal format, makes it so that players who have actually supported the product by putting money into it have less return on their contribution because in the end their decks can get broken by the vocal minority anyway.
In the end T5 does not agree with the logic that you are in support of anyway, so ultimately this conversation is null and void, but I thought I'd address this nonetheless because newer/ex-standard players keep advocating for breaking cards or decks that are not tier 0 just so that they don't have to play them/against them. You don't want to face older strategies then go to standard.
What, you're trying to pull some 'veteran card game' elitism act now? Pathetic.
None of those cards you mentioned come even close to Genn, Baku and others cards. Dr. Boom, Mad Genius is ridiculously strong in standard and ridiculously mediocre in wild. Conjurer's Calling sees no play whatsoever in wild and Mana Cyclone only allows for a deck that heavily struggles with consistency (hey, that term sounds familiar). Death knights, quests, LoE explorers are all weaker than their previous iterations. Sure, we might get one or two cards that are strong for wild's standards per expansion but none of these will compare to the power level of past expansions.
Your view on what you think Blizzard's idea of wild is is extremely warped and went out the window the second they nerfed Patches the Pirate and Raza the Chained right before they would be rotated.
I can't play old Undertaker hunter. I can't play old patron warrior. I can't play the old Force of Nature combo. This isn't an eternal format where I can play all the old cards and combos as they used to be. This is some crappy in-between mode where we sort of have all the cards but Blizzard comes in and butchers one or two every now and then as an act of half-assed balancing.
You can try and pretend like you know what wild is supposed to be all you want but when the developers themselves don't even know you just look like a fool.
I like the quest itself and the reward because of the promise of a new midrange-y Warrior deck, but I'm skeptical this will see play as long as Dr. Boom, Mad Genius is in standard. Warrior also needs cheaper weapons since its staple ones range from 4-6 mana (Wrenchcalibur, Supercollider, Sul'thraze) in order to complete the quest sooner. We'll have to see what kind of weapons the class will get this expansion.
Don't forget about Weapons Project. With the ideal draw you could conceivably have the quest done by turn 6 (Quest>Project>Wrenchcalibur), churn out one golem on the same turn and still have 4 mana to spare. Speed and the fact that you don't have to float a turn to get the heropower online are the two advantages I'd give this card over Dr. Boom, Mad Genius.
None of that says control. Highest cost card is Zilliax, and it doesn't run AOE.
Good catch. I thought we were discussing ladder viable decks. One sec, I haven't uploaded my Beast Pirate Priest deck, we need to talk about how Grandmummy impacts that.
This is a huge goalpost shift. Obviously we're discussing *future* ladder viable decks, so referring to an off-meta deck that exists but is *presently* underpowered is totally valid when discussing a card that's about to be released.
I've run into plenty of IF priest variants even recently. I've yet to see a Beast Pirate priest. Come on dude.
This card will definitely see play, whether or not a new Taunt Warrior archetype emerges in standard. It's just that good, and even better than Stonehill Defender--it's cheaper, and its stats are more balanced for its cost.
I always thought King Mosh's battlecry was wasted on that 9-mana body, so I'm happy to see it repackaged as a spell. Control Warrior might love this, though the fact that you might have to play cards like Whirlwind or Warpath to activate this, on top of its high mana cost, could give players second thoughts on including this in their deck. Especially since it competes with Brawl for the 5-mana spot.
Let’s just fondly remember that you were the prodigy that thought gallery priest was better without gallery.
then you lost a shit ton. Asked for help. Got help. Was too embarrassed about how fucking terrible you were. And then you asked for the thread to be closed.
What a lazy design for a legendary. 10-mana legendaries should ideally be build-around cards, which Colossus of the Moon just isn't since it does nothing the turn it's played (it's absolutely sticky though, it can survive multiple trades assuming it's not destroyed or silenced). The only way this will be good is if it's cheated out or summoned from a random effect.
That said, I think I can slot this in a Big Warrior deck. Could be a nightmare to deal with. But man, I'd hate to get this from one of my packs...
I like the quest itself and the reward because of the promise of a new midrange-y Warrior deck, but I'm skeptical this will see play as long as Dr. Boom, Mad Genius is in standard. Warrior also needs cheaper weapons since its staple ones range from 4-6 mana (Wrenchcalibur, Supercollider, Sul'thraze) in order to complete the quest sooner. We'll have to see what kind of weapons the class will get this expansion.
Pretty self explanatory: can we get a button in the text editor that allows you to easily place empty quote boxes? I've been using stupidly roundabout ways to do that right now, and while I probably ought to figure out how to do it with the source code, I'm sure it would still be far faster if there were a button for it.
Seems like a pretty obvious feature to improve the readability & layout of longer posts, guides, etc.
Imagine how many mountain giants this can chew through and still be conjured into something new.
Sea Giants. Mountain costs 12, which is why the Conjurer’s pool is so small — the only 12 drops are Mountain Giant and Grave Horror. 10 is a little more saturated, but the point still stands.
I'm talking about the enemy mage's minions in a conjuring mage mirror-match, tho. If you roll one of these off of a Sea Giant, it can kill several enemy 8/8s and 7/8s and still be conjured.
I expect MG to remain the premium conjuring target simply because of consistency, but the high-roll potential on 10-drops just got a lot bigger, was my point.
Imagine how many mountain giants this can chew through and still be conjured into something new.
Sea Giants. Mountain costs 12, which is why the Conjurer’s pool is so small — the only 12 drops are Mountain Giant and Grave Horror. 10 is a little more saturated, but the point still stands.
I felt cursed to be playing Merc 280 for the rest of my days. Winning game after game, inflicting my curse on others, unable to die. But sweet release finally came in the form of Taunt 593. I don't know if it was a fluke, but Taunt 593 is my new master, and I will play it until I cry, bleed, or die.
Regarding the comparison to Brawl and Sleep with the Fishes, IMO Plague of Wrath is worse. Fishes' selling point is the mana cost, period. It's an answer to early boards that you can't brawl yet. Brawl is great at resetting most board states without requiring a setup card like whirlwind.
While there are certainly situations where you would rather have Plague of Wrath (EG 2 large damaged enemy minions), the fact that it usually requires a setup and costs 5 makes it the worst of the three: it's conditional and expensive.
On the bright side we're comparing it to some of the best removal tools in the game, so this is like coming in third in the Olympics. It's still basically a reverse-Equality, and that card still sees play post-nerf.
I wonder how many weapons it'll take to trigger this reliably in a slightly more controlling warrior.
That's more speculation for some time further down the road, after Boom rotates, since Boom is almost surely the superior hero power upgrade. But Supercollider and Weapons Project are both 3-durability weapons that warriors already play sometimes. Running just those seems plenty. Granted, they'll rotate out at the same time as Boom rotates. But I think the premise stands. Is having three, 3-durability weapons in a deck enough? Four weapons with 3 swings? Two plus Gorehowl?
You seem overly focused on the 'stale' part, yet this was only one of the few reasons why I'm not opposed to nerfing those cards. Nor did I ever say any of those decks were unbeatable. They're just too consistent at what they do and this won't change. Hence why these decks will forever stay on top in wild.
Your argument about stronger cards being added would've made sense a year ago, but not anymore. Blizzard are purposely shying away from stronger cards to prevent a power creep. Just compare the current highlander cards to their previous League of Explorers iterations. Hence why I believe that we will never see cards as strong as Genn Greymane and Baku the Mooneater ever again.
And if Blizzard actually knew what they were doing they would've a. made counters for Genn and Baku decks in the new expansion or b. altered both cards in a meaningful way. But they didn't do either. They chose for the easy, band-aid solution by making them wild's problem forever.
I wouldn't exactly say Mana Cyclone, CC, and Dr. Boom are cards that are indicative of shying away from power creep. Mana Cyclone already sees play in wild Quest Mage ladder, CC is still extremely good midrange/early late game pressure, and a permanent rush aura (even when not potentially highrolling into desirable hero powers) is extremely potent in grindy attrition games. I've yet to be swayed that strong cards will not eventually compete against many viable odd/even decks. I feel that this debate is just focused on personal dislike of the playstyle as opposed to legitimate reasons why T5 should do a massive power check for multiple decks in an eternal ccg format.
I can't but help you're ignoring what the purpose of wild was intended for. It was for players to play whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted (again with tier 0 caveats). Saying that any card, deck, or playstyle is going to be wild's problem forever is pretty irrelevant when considering what an eternal format is. EVERY card game has a format where you are allowed to use all of your cards and if you didn't want to play against those than most of those card games also had another format to escape such strategies. Why are you so intent on making HS break this mold by essentially doing balance passes on decks in a mode where that isn't intended to happen, solely for the personal preference of just a portion of the format's players? I find this perspective especially annoying when it is spread by players who never were veteran players in any card game prior to Hearthstone. Changing cards in every format because you don't like them actually doesn't follow the CCG model that games like MtG and Yu-Gi-Oh ultimately followed. You want to play with any and all cards in the game? You can do that in one format. You don't want this? You can also do that in another format. Hitting everything with the nerf hammer, even in an eternal format, makes it so that players who have actually supported the product by putting money into it have less return on their contribution because in the end their decks can get broken by the vocal minority anyway.
In the end T5 does not agree with the logic that you are in support of anyway, so ultimately this conversation is null and void, but I thought I'd address this nonetheless because newer/ex-standard players keep advocating for breaking cards or decks that are not tier 0 just so that they don't have to play them/against them. You don't want to face older strategies then go to standard.
Wild started out as an olive branch to players who were upset about the introduction of set rotations and threatening to quit the game if they couldn't use their precious Dr. Seven in every deck ever until the end of time. While it may have initially been a dumping ground where anything goes, we're three years down the line from there, Wild has expanded from (standard +) 2 sets to a whopping 11+ HoF, and a dedicated group of wild enthusiasts has emerged, so consequently Blizzard has taken an increasingly hands-on approach to balancing Wild to keep it fresh and fun. The nerf to Patches the Pirate when it rotated out, the more recent nerfs to Naga Sea Witch and Aviana as well as the constant attempts at placating upset wild players about Big Priest all point toward this trend. To pretend that Wild is still wholly predicated on the premise by which it was initially sold is disingenuous IMO, and certainly contradicted by the designers' own statements on the matter: https://www.hearthpwn.com/blue-tracker/topic/15422-blizzard-isnt-throwing-out-old-cards-you-are.
Quote:
"Yes, there's no question that Wild will be more challenging to balance, and I think it would be disingenuous to try to pretend that it isn't. In fact, that's a big part of the reason why introducing formats is a compelling option! That doesn't mean that Wild won't be a ton of fun though, and the devs plan to do their best to keep it fun. The possibilities there are endless, and they'll only get more interesting as time goes on."
...
"We will monitor the balance of both Standard and Wild formats once they arrive. We want players to choose the format(s) that fit how they want to play the game and will continue to ensure that all modes of play are an enjoyable experience."
And bear in mind, that thread is from when standard was introduced.
An ever-growing evergreen card game is unsustainable on its face: sooner or later, with enough cards in the pool, broken interactions or unfun decks will be unavoidable without targeted nerfs to problem cards.
I wouldn't mind Blizzard introducing a new format that's supposed to function like a curated Wild, so they can keep Wild, well, wild, but for the time being it looks like T5 is taking an interventionist approach to the format.
After dr.boom rotates(in april 2020), you will see this quest in many warriors
Indeed. The old Quest Taunt warrior used to switch away from Armor Up in the late game, and while this isn't as immediate as Ragnaros shots, it's still a win condition. A control warrior with this quest, post-Boom, can ride out the early game gaining armor and swinging with weapons against enemy minions, then switch to cranking out a 4/3 or two a turn, plus whatever you draw. That's a lot of pressure.
New Neutral Minion - Sunstruck Henchman
It would be great if it has Taunt and 5/6 stats. This mechanic fits taunt minions more in my opinion.
Idea for Genn and Baku Nerfs
What, you're trying to pull some 'veteran card game' elitism act now? Pathetic.
None of those cards you mentioned come even close to Genn, Baku and others cards. Dr. Boom, Mad Genius is ridiculously strong in standard and ridiculously mediocre in wild. Conjurer's Calling sees no play whatsoever in wild and Mana Cyclone only allows for a deck that heavily struggles with consistency (hey, that term sounds familiar). Death knights, quests, LoE explorers are all weaker than their previous iterations. Sure, we might get one or two cards that are strong for wild's standards per expansion but none of these will compare to the power level of past expansions.
Your view on what you think Blizzard's idea of wild is is extremely warped and went out the window the second they nerfed Patches the Pirate and Raza the Chained right before they would be rotated.
I can't play old Undertaker hunter. I can't play old patron warrior. I can't play the old Force of Nature combo. This isn't an eternal format where I can play all the old cards and combos as they used to be. This is some crappy in-between mode where we sort of have all the cards but Blizzard comes in and butchers one or two every now and then as an act of half-assed balancing.
You can try and pretend like you know what wild is supposed to be all you want but when the developers themselves don't even know you just look like a fool.
New Warrior Spell - Plague of Wrath
Why would it need the 5 Mana slot if you need to combo it with another cheaper damage spell anyway?
Uldum Warrior Quest Reveal - Hack the System
It means Warrior will have new weapon!
New Warrior Spell - Hack the System
Don't forget about Weapons Project. With the ideal draw you could conceivably have the quest done by turn 6 (Quest>Project>Wrenchcalibur), churn out one golem on the same turn and still have 4 mana to spare. Speed and the fact that you don't have to float a turn to get the heropower online are the two advantages I'd give this card over Dr. Boom, Mad Genius.
Three Uldum Card Reveals - Hearthside Chat
The main page (i.e. the small picture on the main site) only shows the legendary minion, and not all the three cards.
Any ideas why? :)
New Priest Minion - Grandmummy
This is a huge goalpost shift. Obviously we're discussing *future* ladder viable decks, so referring to an off-meta deck that exists but is *presently* underpowered is totally valid when discussing a card that's about to be released.
I've run into plenty of IF priest variants even recently. I've yet to see a Beast Pirate priest. Come on dude.
Three Uldum Card Reveals - Hearthside Chat
What power creep are we talking here, the one where a 9/7 would worth 4 mana? ^^
New Warrior Minion - Frightened Flunky
This card will definitely see play, whether or not a new Taunt Warrior archetype emerges in standard. It's just that good, and even better than Stonehill Defender--it's cheaper, and its stats are more balanced for its cost.
New Warrior Spell - Plague of Wrath
I always thought King Mosh's battlecry was wasted on that 9-mana body, so I'm happy to see it repackaged as a spell. Control Warrior might love this, though the fact that you might have to play cards like Whirlwind or Warpath to activate this, on top of its high mana cost, could give players second thoughts on including this in their deck. Especially since it competes with Brawl for the 5-mana spot.
Uldum Warrior Quest Reveal - Hack the System
Year of the Dragon, here we go!
New Priest Minion - Grandmummy
Let’s just fondly remember that you were the prodigy that thought gallery priest was better without gallery.
then you lost a shit ton. Asked for help. Got help. Was too embarrassed about how fucking terrible you were. And then you asked for the thread to be closed.
New Neutral Minion - Colossus of the Moon
What a lazy design for a legendary. 10-mana legendaries should ideally be build-around cards, which Colossus of the Moon just isn't since it does nothing the turn it's played (it's absolutely sticky though, it can survive multiple trades assuming it's not destroyed or silenced). The only way this will be good is if it's cheated out or summoned from a random effect.
That said, I think I can slot this in a Big Warrior deck. Could be a nightmare to deal with. But man, I'd hate to get this from one of my packs...
New Warrior Spell - Hack the System
I like the quest itself and the reward because of the promise of a new midrange-y Warrior deck, but I'm skeptical this will see play as long as Dr. Boom, Mad Genius is in standard. Warrior also needs cheaper weapons since its staple ones range from 4-6 mana (Wrenchcalibur, Supercollider, Sul'thraze) in order to complete the quest sooner. We'll have to see what kind of weapons the class will get this expansion.
Group Therapy! Need to blow off some steam? Mega salty? Here's the place!
Please do
Quote Button
Pretty self explanatory: can we get a button in the text editor that allows you to easily place empty quote boxes? I've been using stupidly roundabout ways to do that right now, and while I probably ought to figure out how to do it with the source code, I'm sure it would still be far faster if there were a button for it.
Seems like a pretty obvious feature to improve the readability & layout of longer posts, guides, etc.
New Neutral Minion - Colossus of the Moon
I'm talking about the enemy mage's minions in a conjuring mage mirror-match, tho. If you roll one of these off of a Sea Giant, it can kill several enemy 8/8s and 7/8s and still be conjured.
I expect MG to remain the premium conjuring target simply because of consistency, but the high-roll potential on 10-drops just got a lot bigger, was my point.
New Warrior Spell - Hack the System
I agree. If we are supposed to be swinging repeatedly at minions instead of face then this new weapon better have Lifesteal.
The Burndown!
Aaaaaaand I just lost my very next game to Merc 280.
New Neutral Minion - Colossus of the Moon
Sea Giants. Mountain costs 12, which is why the Conjurer’s pool is so small — the only 12 drops are Mountain Giant and Grave Horror. 10 is a little more saturated, but the point still stands.
The Burndown!
I felt cursed to be playing Merc 280 for the rest of my days. Winning game after game, inflicting my curse on others, unable to die. But sweet release finally came in the form of Taunt 593. I don't know if it was a fluke, but Taunt 593 is my new master, and I will play it until I cry, bleed, or die.
New Warrior Spell - Plague of Wrath
Regarding the comparison to Brawl and Sleep with the Fishes, IMO Plague of Wrath is worse. Fishes' selling point is the mana cost, period. It's an answer to early boards that you can't brawl yet. Brawl is great at resetting most board states without requiring a setup card like whirlwind.
While there are certainly situations where you would rather have Plague of Wrath (EG 2 large damaged enemy minions), the fact that it usually requires a setup and costs 5 makes it the worst of the three: it's conditional and expensive.
On the bright side we're comparing it to some of the best removal tools in the game, so this is like coming in third in the Olympics. It's still basically a reverse-Equality, and that card still sees play post-nerf.
Uldum Warrior Quest Reveal - Hack the System
I wonder how many weapons it'll take to trigger this reliably in a slightly more controlling warrior.
That's more speculation for some time further down the road, after Boom rotates, since Boom is almost surely the superior hero power upgrade. But Supercollider and Weapons Project are both 3-durability weapons that warriors already play sometimes. Running just those seems plenty. Granted, they'll rotate out at the same time as Boom rotates. But I think the premise stands. Is having three, 3-durability weapons in a deck enough? Four weapons with 3 swings? Two plus Gorehowl?
Idea for Genn and Baku Nerfs
Wild started out as an olive branch to players who were upset about the introduction of set rotations and threatening to quit the game if they couldn't use their precious Dr. Seven in every deck ever until the end of time. While it may have initially been a dumping ground where anything goes, we're three years down the line from there, Wild has expanded from (standard +) 2 sets to a whopping 11+ HoF, and a dedicated group of wild enthusiasts has emerged, so consequently Blizzard has taken an increasingly hands-on approach to balancing Wild to keep it fresh and fun. The nerf to Patches the Pirate when it rotated out, the more recent nerfs to Naga Sea Witch and Aviana as well as the constant attempts at placating upset wild players about Big Priest all point toward this trend. To pretend that Wild is still wholly predicated on the premise by which it was initially sold is disingenuous IMO, and certainly contradicted by the designers' own statements on the matter: https://www.hearthpwn.com/blue-tracker/topic/15422-blizzard-isnt-throwing-out-old-cards-you-are.
And bear in mind, that thread is from when standard was introduced.
An ever-growing evergreen card game is unsustainable on its face: sooner or later, with enough cards in the pool, broken interactions or unfun decks will be unavoidable without targeted nerfs to problem cards.
I wouldn't mind Blizzard introducing a new format that's supposed to function like a curated Wild, so they can keep Wild, well, wild, but for the time being it looks like T5 is taking an interventionist approach to the format.
Uldum Warrior Quest Reveal - Hack the System
Indeed. The old Quest Taunt warrior used to switch away from Armor Up in the late game, and while this isn't as immediate as Ragnaros shots, it's still a win condition. A control warrior with this quest, post-Boom, can ride out the early game gaining armor and swinging with weapons against enemy minions, then switch to cranking out a 4/3 or two a turn, plus whatever you draw. That's a lot of pressure.