I was going to write a rebuttal, but you covered pretty much everything I was going to say bar one point (kudos).
The one additional point: It's a 6-drop. LoR has far more impactful minions at the 5+ cost than other card games relative to the power of lower cost minions - just look at Avarosan Hearthguard as an example. It's very powerful at doing its one particular thing, but so are a bunch of other cards. Just because the one thing it is doing happened to burn you recently is no reason to think it overpowered.
I wouldn't say broken, but it's a crazy strong mechanic which seems pretty underrated by the community in general (and has done for quite some time). The real power is in essentially removing the downsides of 'can't block' minions, in my opinion, as well as those whose effects trigger on attack.
There's quite a few bugs with different quests from what I've seen. I had one this morning to play 50 cards from Shadow Isles or Piltover/Zaun - it was incrementing despite my deck (expedition deck) having only Demacian and Freljordian cards in it. From the numbers I was seeing, I'm guessing it was incrementing when my opponent played cards from those regions.
I'll probably want a deck tracker when I get around to grinding up in ranked, primarily for keeping track of minion counts (have I cleared two Blacksmiths or three?). Won't be for a while though, and if the UI is wonky I don't think I'll bother until a better version is released.
Hopefully from somewhere other than mobalytics >.>
Agreed, working as intended given it's established Overwhelm will do its damage so long as the strike happens, irrespective of what happens to the minion in question (killed via spell, recalled, stunned etc.).
There are always going to be mechanics which don't -quite- work as you expected them to, that's part of playing a card game. Even YGO, which tends towards phenomenal amounts of text on its cards, has extensive errata to cover off various interactions. That doesn't mean the mechanic isn't working as intended, simply that you didn't anticipate it.
It also makes perfect sense to me, rationally. Barrier is a targeted effect, and it protects the minion. You're not giving your Nexus Barrier, after all.
Blizzard are horribly over-sensitive when it comes to login issues. Having had to reclaim an account after my phone (with my authenticator on it) was stolen, I recall having to go through security measures that are tighter than the ones I use for work - and I work for a national government ¬.¬.
Thanks Riot for making Yasuo a complete troll in your new game too. WTG!
So... so much confusion. Do you think Riot reads messages on an unaffiliated fansite? Do you realise that your thread is meaningless salt? Do you not see every Yasuo in every League game feed like a maniac (because I know I do)?
you will always get a champion out of the rewards from expedition so you in fact getting more rewards this way that the random champ besides if you get 7 wins in any of the trials you get another expedition token this change is a super good for us .
Btw where did you hear that you get another expedition token when you get 7 wins? I got 7 wins in my first expedition this week (yay!) but I didn't get another token, just a lot of cards and shards.
Same here. I also don't recall hearing that, though I do vaguely recall being guaranteed to get enough shards to buy another run if you get past a certain threshold. I forget what numbers are required, though.
- To the person who suggested healing was a counter - healing is actually quite poorly handled in LoR in my view, at least in this early stage. Healing from spells seems to be valued phenomenally highly, judging by the cost of spells with healing built-in (and the low values of those heals). It seems significantly more efficient to play a lifesteal minion and then buff it, even if that minion only gets a single hit off - and that has the potential to stick around and continue to heal.
For what it's worth, I think a lot of people consider lifesteal to be a form of healing. I certainly do!
I'm afraid you misunderstand. It's not that I don't consider lifesteal to be healing. My issue is that lifesteal-based healing seems far cheaper than spell-based healing. In theory, lifesteal vs healing from spells should be roughly similarly costed because it's reasonable to expect a minion to get a single hit in, on average. The fact that a minion can potentially hit more than once is balanced out by the potential for the minion to be removed by effects and not get a hit in at all. Instead, though, Lifesteal as a keyword seems to be pretty cheap on minions that can get it, and can provide big chunks of healing that spells simply can't.
I agree on both of those. I'm fairly confident Magic remains so popular entirely from its legacy, because I maintain that its design isn't particularly good at creating an entertaining experience compared to some of the newcomers.
A few points based on the conversation that happened so far:
- @OP - no matter what you consider your experience in card games, a post like your OP is always going to read like the heaping great pile of salt it is.
- I do think puff-shrooms are potentially harmful to the game in general because the game is already skewed towards shorter game times by the relatively small health pools. Introducing a further mechanic to unavoidably kill slower decks significantly disincentivises people from playing those slower decks.
- To the person who suggested healing was a counter - healing is actually quite poorly handled in LoR in my view, at least in this early stage. Healing from spells seems to be valued phenomenally highly, judging by the cost of spells with healing built-in (and the low values of those heals). It seems significantly more efficient to play a lifesteal minion and then buff it, even if that minion only gets a single hit off - and that has the potential to stick around and continue to heal.
That being said, it is pretty early days, and shroom decks themselves have woefully bad matchups into aggro decks. I just worry that we're already looking at a mill rogue style scenario in which a deck has a permanent <50% winrate, and yet still nears 90% against certain meta decks - which is not a healthy position for any deck in any meta.
I mean, that's not so much an opinion as a value judgment as to the amount being taken from any given game; it's based on objective facts, after all. And for the record, I would argue it's incorrect as a statement. T
Point well taken. I think my mistake was using the term "copycat" as that undoubtedly creates a sense of negativity. I understand that almost any card game created at this point will bear some resemblance to one or more of the card games that preceded it. However, while my opinion may be factually incorrect, it is still my opinion and I stand by it. For all we know, I might be the only person who played the game and felt like 'been there, done that'. Once again, this may not be the game for me; but hopefully there are many people who play it and enjoy it.
Aye, your 'feeling' of the game is valid.
Personally I find it feels very different to HS or MTG. I have never really liked MTG because of the way attacking/blocking works; HS, meanwhile, has a distinct feeling due to having separated turns (secrets notwithstanding). LoR feels different to the former due to the lack of a Lands mechanic, the less defender-favoured blocking system, and (another bugbear) lack of regenerating health. It feels different to the latter because the turns are back-and-forth rather than separated, giving a different game flow.
And obviously, all three are very, VERY different to YGO.
Pretty much the only decks that Highlander Mage reliably beats in Wild are greedy control decks, so either you're playing too greedy, getting unlucky, or playing the matchup very wrong.
In my opinion, LoR felt more like a copycat game than it's own product. I'm sure many people with disagree with that statement, and that's fine. Not all games will appeal to all people.
I mean, that's not so much an opinion as a value judgment as to the amount being taken from any given game; it's based on objective facts, after all. And for the record, I would argue it's incorrect as a statement. T
yea if your idea of variety is reno mage, secret mage or handbuff mech paladin
That was kind of an obvious joke.
And also, I'm assuming, tongue-in-cheek considering Mecha'thun 'lock has a favourable matchup into two of those and is fairly close to even in the third.
That's my issue though - it's so simplistic as to have no depth. A significant part of your winrate is literally coming from RNG before the game even starts, picking a hero. Then you've got 2-3 viable tribes to choose from, which means either you're going to wind up with a suboptimal board or be playing the same thing every game. No items, relatively limited synergies..
Tirion's release feels really beneficial for the game, really, because at least when you get him you'll be playing a pretty unique board. Though that's not going to happen all that often.
I honestly don't understand it, but hey, you do you mang. As far as I'm concerned, though, if you compare HSBG to TFT, HSBG loses in essentially every criteria except 'ability to play on phone'.
I was going to write a rebuttal, but you covered pretty much everything I was going to say bar one point (kudos).
The one additional point: It's a 6-drop. LoR has far more impactful minions at the 5+ cost than other card games relative to the power of lower cost minions - just look at Avarosan Hearthguard as an example. It's very powerful at doing its one particular thing, but so are a bunch of other cards. Just because the one thing it is doing happened to burn you recently is no reason to think it overpowered.
I wouldn't say broken, but it's a crazy strong mechanic which seems pretty underrated by the community in general (and has done for quite some time). The real power is in essentially removing the downsides of 'can't block' minions, in my opinion, as well as those whose effects trigger on attack.
There's quite a few bugs with different quests from what I've seen. I had one this morning to play 50 cards from Shadow Isles or Piltover/Zaun - it was incrementing despite my deck (expedition deck) having only Demacian and Freljordian cards in it. From the numbers I was seeing, I'm guessing it was incrementing when my opponent played cards from those regions.
I'll probably want a deck tracker when I get around to grinding up in ranked, primarily for keeping track of minion counts (have I cleared two Blacksmiths or three?). Won't be for a while though, and if the UI is wonky I don't think I'll bother until a better version is released.
Hopefully from somewhere other than mobalytics >.>
Agreed, working as intended given it's established Overwhelm will do its damage so long as the strike happens, irrespective of what happens to the minion in question (killed via spell, recalled, stunned etc.).
There are always going to be mechanics which don't -quite- work as you expected them to, that's part of playing a card game. Even YGO, which tends towards phenomenal amounts of text on its cards, has extensive errata to cover off various interactions. That doesn't mean the mechanic isn't working as intended, simply that you didn't anticipate it.
It also makes perfect sense to me, rationally. Barrier is a targeted effect, and it protects the minion. You're not giving your Nexus Barrier, after all.
Blizzard are horribly over-sensitive when it comes to login issues. Having had to reclaim an account after my phone (with my authenticator on it) was stolen, I recall having to go through security measures that are tighter than the ones I use for work - and I work for a national government ¬.¬.
So... so much confusion. Do you think Riot reads messages on an unaffiliated fansite? Do you realise that your thread is meaningless salt? Do you not see every Yasuo in every League game feed like a maniac (because I know I do)?
I... I don't know what to do with this...
Same here. I also don't recall hearing that, though I do vaguely recall being guaranteed to get enough shards to buy another run if you get past a certain threshold. I forget what numbers are required, though.
Discovered today (though I should have known already, probably) that the weekly vault is capped at three Diamonds. Hmph. Roll on Tuesday.
I'm afraid you misunderstand. It's not that I don't consider lifesteal to be healing. My issue is that lifesteal-based healing seems far cheaper than spell-based healing. In theory, lifesteal vs healing from spells should be roughly similarly costed because it's reasonable to expect a minion to get a single hit in, on average. The fact that a minion can potentially hit more than once is balanced out by the potential for the minion to be removed by effects and not get a hit in at all. Instead, though, Lifesteal as a keyword seems to be pretty cheap on minions that can get it, and can provide big chunks of healing that spells simply can't.
I agree on both of those. I'm fairly confident Magic remains so popular entirely from its legacy, because I maintain that its design isn't particularly good at creating an entertaining experience compared to some of the newcomers.
A few points based on the conversation that happened so far:
- @OP - no matter what you consider your experience in card games, a post like your OP is always going to read like the heaping great pile of salt it is.
- I do think puff-shrooms are potentially harmful to the game in general because the game is already skewed towards shorter game times by the relatively small health pools. Introducing a further mechanic to unavoidably kill slower decks significantly disincentivises people from playing those slower decks.
- To the person who suggested healing was a counter - healing is actually quite poorly handled in LoR in my view, at least in this early stage. Healing from spells seems to be valued phenomenally highly, judging by the cost of spells with healing built-in (and the low values of those heals). It seems significantly more efficient to play a lifesteal minion and then buff it, even if that minion only gets a single hit off - and that has the potential to stick around and continue to heal.
That being said, it is pretty early days, and shroom decks themselves have woefully bad matchups into aggro decks. I just worry that we're already looking at a mill rogue style scenario in which a deck has a permanent <50% winrate, and yet still nears 90% against certain meta decks - which is not a healthy position for any deck in any meta.
There's a couple of threads on this already, along with comments on the recent announcement post, I'd suggest looking in those
Aye, your 'feeling' of the game is valid.
Personally I find it feels very different to HS or MTG. I have never really liked MTG because of the way attacking/blocking works; HS, meanwhile, has a distinct feeling due to having separated turns (secrets notwithstanding). LoR feels different to the former due to the lack of a Lands mechanic, the less defender-favoured blocking system, and (another bugbear) lack of regenerating health. It feels different to the latter because the turns are back-and-forth rather than separated, giving a different game flow.
And obviously, all three are very, VERY different to YGO.
Pretty much the only decks that Highlander Mage reliably beats in Wild are greedy control decks, so either you're playing too greedy, getting unlucky, or playing the matchup very wrong.
I mean, that's not so much an opinion as a value judgment as to the amount being taken from any given game; it's based on objective facts, after all. And for the record, I would argue it's incorrect as a statement. T
Or alternatively, different people want different things...
And also, I'm assuming, tongue-in-cheek considering Mecha'thun 'lock has a favourable matchup into two of those and is fairly close to even in the third.
That's my issue though - it's so simplistic as to have no depth. A significant part of your winrate is literally coming from RNG before the game even starts, picking a hero. Then you've got 2-3 viable tribes to choose from, which means either you're going to wind up with a suboptimal board or be playing the same thing every game. No items, relatively limited synergies..
Tirion's release feels really beneficial for the game, really, because at least when you get him you'll be playing a pretty unique board. Though that's not going to happen all that often.
I honestly don't understand it, but hey, you do you mang. As far as I'm concerned, though, if you compare HSBG to TFT, HSBG loses in essentially every criteria except 'ability to play on phone'.