This card looks bad but its beefy enough to survive around 4 rounds. The big problem is exactly that it takes 4 rounds to see any value. At best, if curved on T4, it will generate ok-ish value by T8, and it gets worse the longer its delayed. I believe is way too slow for the current meta.
I made sure to put the word Main between quotations to draw attention toward that part of the problem.
you can't say Kinkou elusives is a Freljord deck when you are running 6 support freljord cards and 34 ionia :) it's the same as saying bannerman deck is ionia when there is only 1/2 copies of deny and 38 demacia's cards.
The reason why i placed Ionia 3rd and not first is again, it is mostly played as a support region and not the main one, in your examples it is X other region main champion + karma support (EZ, Heimer, Lux...) and i think that's a problem.
Of course you will always see all kind of decks played in ranked, but you will see some of them pop up WAY more often then others because of how efficient their "answers" are in comparison to the less represented regions.
This is a good post and all your points are valid.
All regions have different mechanics, weakness and strenghts. It feels very natural to me that some regions like Ionia, wich lacks good minions but have strong cost-efficient spells, will mostly take a support role to other regions. While i don't think this is a problem at all, i would also not mind if those regions get more options to build around either.
Freljord in my deck does all the heavy lifting. My plan is to build a big Who they Endure and then finish the game with Atrocity. All SI with the exception of Ledros are supportive/stall cards. Babbling Bjerg is also a key card versus banner/Fiora/Ez decks to tutor Ledros, and its the best ressurrection target for Kalista.
Interesting topic subject, just a shame you screw yourself over posting some BIAS meta report.
1- Ionia is the most played region, not SI;
2- Piltover is good with basicly any region since it has tons of efficient card draw, direct damage and single target removal. It lacks Healing, AOE and big followers;
3- Elusives are strong right now thats why they see so much play. Also Ionia has good spells but lack good minions. BUT not every Ionian deck uses full elusives; (Fiora / Karma + Ez / Heimerdinger / etc)
4- Before Banner, Demacia was heavily used for Relentles Pursuit, Back to Back, Stand Alone and Fiora. All those decks are still viable;
5- Noxus is designed to go face. Just a few control decks that use Noxus: Ashe, Vladimir and Yasuo. Remember Trifarian Assession?
6- Freljord is not competitve? Kinkou elusives was a tier S deck for a loooong time. I got rank master 13º last month playing Freljord + SI. Lets not forget Warmother, Ashe and Ez freeze decks. Seriously, this "Freljord is weak" nonsense is getting old already.
I know is beyond the scope of the thread, but how is Shadow Assassin balanced in any way?
Just think Shadow Assassin in this way: It has elusive, so outside of challenger units, try a wild guess wich is the best spell card that can remove her paying the least amount of mana? Answer: Mystic Shot. 2 mana cost. So she is pretty much a 1 mana draw engine that also deals 2 damage, can block other elusives and do consistent damage if your oponnent doesn't have elusives/challenger units. This isn't balanced at all for 3 mana. I am surprised this card survived without a nerf to this day tbh.
Back to topic... my horse is on Glimpse Beyond... but the card i hate the most is: Relentless Pursuit.
This is a terrible advice... some reasons why: 1- 2/4 elusive is not easy to remove; 2- Deny; (wich also deals dmg with Ez on board) 3- Many pieces have burst spell speed; 4- Karma also needs removal; 5- He may play another Ez; (Cost is only 3 mana) 6- He may chain will of ionia on Ez then play him again; 7- He may chain other spells on your removal.
No bro, removing ez is not an option unless its played very early in the match. In that case, you can count he has another Ez in his hand.
Definition: Ez decks are also know as a Combo or "Exodia" deck. Its main purpose is to stall the game untill certain conditions are met, then perform an OTK. (One Turn Kill: multiple plays that takes down the nexus from 20 -> 0 in a single turn) The OTK combo is a concept that exists in most card games, usually being very strong versus slow decks and weak versus aggro decks.
About your post: Playing behind is part of their gameplay. You were never ahead to begin with. In the current meta, if you re not 1 card away from finishing the game around Turn 8, then you are already behind. Each turn you delay, you fall more and more behind. Those decks requires a great amount of skill to play optimally, but i agree its not very fun to play against.
Personal opinion: I also dislike the very existence of OTK decks, because there is nothing that can be done exept: FINISHING THE GAME BEFORE THEY WIN! Just imagine there is reaper hidden in your match whispering: You only have X turns left before you DIE!
This concept sets a timer and puts a lot of pressure on the oponnent. So in order to win, its necessary to build a deck in a certain way that allows to close games before X turn, where X is the average turn the OTK assembles their combo. This limits a lot of deck build creativity and pushes many decks out of the meta. For example, one of the reasosn i believe Vladimir doesn't see any play despite many recent buffs on the archetype, its because he lacks an explosive finisher so can't beat ez wich is pretty popular right now.
I am ok with OTK existing but as a guy who likes to build OOTB decks, i would probably be happier if they didn't.
No one plays [Hearthstone Card (Yeti Yearling) Not Found] for its value. Everyone plays for the [Hearthstone Card (Enraged Yeti) Not Found] . So you need to count BOTH cards as being one to determinate its real value. One extra card cost 2 mana or more (see [Hearthstone Card (Glimpse Beyond) Not Found])
Total cost: 1 mana [Hearthstone Card (Yeti Yearling) Not Found] + 1 mana [Hearthstone Card (Enraged Yeti) Not Found] + 2 mana extra card = 4 mana 6/7 stats. Impressive stats, but nothing game breaking. And this is the best case considering a top deck yeti, there is no guarantee the yetis will ever show up. The longer it takes to draw one of them, the worse it gets.
If [Hearthstone Card (Yeti Yearling) Not Found] placed [Hearthstone Card (Enraged Yeti) Not Found] directly on the top of the deck insted of shuffling 2 copies, then i agree you could argue its stats are overturned. Still, 5/5 + 1/2(that needs to die and stats spread into 2 turns) is much worse then a raw 6/7, and without keywords like Fearsome/Overwhelm it becomes easier to block as any token can do it.
0 defensive options is not entirely right since Used Cask Salesman and Haunted Relic also work for a 1 turn chumbblock what can definetely matter
As a general rule, at the start of the turn, versus a swarm deck, the first action taken should be an attack. This way, its possible to prevent both cards being played defensively.
While it is slower I would not aggre with it being less consistant
3 relics + 3 casks + 3 Feasts + Ruination + Rekindler +... many combinations can clog when compared to the average aggro deck.
It needs an amount of setup that is clearly doable
agreed
You dont have to play around Kalista its just an strong option to win the game.
The deck is only being played now because Kalista was buffed. If you don't believe is centered around Kalista, the deck now is just weaker then it was before the Hecarin/Rekindler/Mark of the Island nerf.
While it is certainly true that The Rekindler combo is not likely to go off its not by any means the ONE goal of the deck that it has to reach, its just an strong lategame option
thats exactly what i posted but with other words, so yeah, i also agree.
Good point. Slighty worse then i expected, still believe its a very strong card nevertheless. I just hope Nox/Piltover and Darius decks in general won't become too oppressive.
I did face this deck pre Kalista buff but bofore Rekindler and Hecarin was nerfed and i thought it performed just ok-ish. Here are my thoughts:
Pros: - strong early offence; - extremely cost-efficient nexus damage; - easy to swarm (blocking all its units may prove difficult); - good lethal range; - has a late game win condition that can beat control decks, despite being an aggro deck;
Cons: - 0 defensive options. - slower and less consistent then the average aggro deck; - requires some setup; - combos can be disrupted; - too centered on Kalista being leveled; - Rekindler combo is powerfull but too slow for the current meta.
How to counter as: 1- Aggro decks: most aggro decks should not have a problem against it, as this deck loses tempo/board control when setting stuff like shark, relic and prankster. Ignore trades until either player is in lethal range, then block with everything available. 2- Control decks: Disrupt combos, save removals for Kalista, play a big Life Steal minion and finish the game before the Rekindler loop. Or just the old good: kill him before he can kill you. Easier said then done, i know.
Now lets adress the Rekloop: it requires 2 main conditions: 1- Kalista has to level up and preferably be dead by the time Rekindler is played; 2- Rekindler has to die before Kalista attacks;
If those 2 conditions are met, the deck most likely will win the game.
You can deny the combo by either preventing Kalista from leveling up or finishing the game before T9. Seriously, Rekindler is a 7 mana play and it also needs to die in order to be ressurected by Kalista. It should be enough time to close the game before that happens. Now, if your deck can't finish games by T9, then Ez decks are a much bigger concern.
Nox/Piltover: fervor will add consistency and lethal range to an already top tier deck. Life gain cards heals very little, there is no decent early lifesteal option and mid/late game LS can be denied now by selecting the designated block unit as a sacrifice to favor. Not to mention there are a few last breath cards that deal direct damage when killed, so its drawback will actually be a plus in many situations.
0/3 slow speed is hard to get value by itself thou.
Its obviously designed to give Lee some power, but works better with heimer.
The only thing bad about this card is the slow speed
Isn't a bit weird Lee is only ganking when he gets to 6?
...
...
...
couldn't be more accurate given what i see in my moba games :X
This card looks bad but its beefy enough to survive around 4 rounds.
The big problem is exactly that it takes 4 rounds to see any value. At best, if curved on T4, it will generate ok-ish value by T8, and it gets worse the longer its delayed. I believe is way too slow for the current meta.
If you draw it from Progress day it costs 1 mana that turn lol, kinda broken. 4 mana deal 3 damage is not that bad either.
This is a good post and all your points are valid.
All regions have different mechanics, weakness and strenghts. It feels very natural to me that some regions like Ionia, wich lacks good minions but have strong cost-efficient spells, will mostly take a support role to other regions. While i don't think this is a problem at all, i would also not mind if those regions get more options to build around either.
Freljord in my deck does all the heavy lifting. My plan is to build a big Who they Endure and then finish the game with Atrocity. All SI with the exception of Ledros are supportive/stall cards.
Babbling Bjerg is also a key card versus banner/Fiora/Ez decks to tutor Ledros, and its the best ressurrection target for Kalista.
Interesting topic subject, just a shame you screw yourself over posting some BIAS meta report.
1- Ionia is the most played region, not SI;
2- Piltover is good with basicly any region since it has tons of efficient card draw, direct damage and single target removal. It lacks Healing, AOE and big followers;
3- Elusives are strong right now thats why they see so much play. Also Ionia has good spells but lack good minions. BUT not every Ionian deck uses full elusives; (Fiora / Karma + Ez / Heimerdinger / etc)
4- Before Banner, Demacia was heavily used for Relentles Pursuit, Back to Back, Stand Alone and Fiora. All those decks are still viable;
5- Noxus is designed to go face. Just a few control decks that use Noxus: Ashe, Vladimir and Yasuo. Remember Trifarian Assession?
6- Freljord is not competitve? Kinkou elusives was a tier S deck for a loooong time. I got rank master 13º last month playing Freljord + SI. Lets not forget Warmother, Ashe and Ez freeze decks. Seriously, this "Freljord is weak" nonsense is getting old already.
Curves extremely well into Braum
Duplicated cards gives way less shards so yeah, wait
I am also surprised Ashe is not popular.
The deck does it all (aggro, control and even holds a big win condition if necessary).
I know is beyond the scope of the thread, but how is Shadow Assassin balanced in any way?
Just think Shadow Assassin in this way:
It has elusive, so outside of challenger units, try a wild guess wich is the best spell card that can remove her paying the least amount of mana?
Answer: Mystic Shot. 2 mana cost. So she is pretty much a 1 mana draw engine that also deals 2 damage, can block other elusives and do consistent damage if your oponnent doesn't have elusives/challenger units. This isn't balanced at all for 3 mana. I am surprised this card survived without a nerf to this day tbh.
Back to topic... my horse is on Glimpse Beyond... but the card i hate the most is: Relentless Pursuit.
Start of the round is too slow...
Easy to get rid of...
Deals damage to himself...
er... wanna be Ekko is not looking good =/
This is a terrible advice... some reasons why:
1- 2/4 elusive is not easy to remove;
2- Deny; (wich also deals dmg with Ez on board)
3- Many pieces have burst spell speed;
4- Karma also needs removal;
5- He may play another Ez; (Cost is only 3 mana)
6- He may chain will of ionia on Ez then play him again;
7- He may chain other spells on your removal.
No bro, removing ez is not an option unless its played very early in the match.
In that case, you can count he has another Ez in his hand.
Definition:
Ez decks are also know as a Combo or "Exodia" deck.
Its main purpose is to stall the game untill certain conditions are met, then perform an OTK. (One Turn Kill: multiple plays that takes down the nexus from 20 -> 0 in a single turn)
The OTK combo is a concept that exists in most card games, usually being very strong versus slow decks and weak versus aggro decks.
About your post:
Playing behind is part of their gameplay. You were never ahead to begin with. In the current meta, if you re not 1 card away from finishing the game around Turn 8, then you are already behind. Each turn you delay, you fall more and more behind.
Those decks requires a great amount of skill to play optimally, but i agree its not very fun to play against.
Personal opinion:
I also dislike the very existence of OTK decks, because there is nothing that can be done exept:
FINISHING THE GAME BEFORE THEY WIN!
Just imagine there is reaper hidden in your match whispering: You only have X turns left before you DIE!
This concept sets a timer and puts a lot of pressure on the oponnent. So in order to win, its necessary to build a deck in a certain way that allows to close games before X turn, where X is the average turn the OTK assembles their combo.
This limits a lot of deck build creativity and pushes many decks out of the meta. For example, one of the reasosn i believe Vladimir doesn't see any play despite many recent buffs on the archetype, its because he lacks an explosive finisher so can't beat ez wich is pretty popular right now.
I am ok with OTK existing but as a guy who likes to build OOTB decks, i would probably be happier if they didn't.
Mission complete!
Full collection attained, 3 of every single card!!!
2k5 shards left + 3 champion wildcards + 36 common wildcards
Start: January, 25.
End: April, 19.
No one plays [Hearthstone Card (Yeti Yearling) Not Found] for its value. Everyone plays for the [Hearthstone Card (Enraged Yeti) Not Found] . So you need to count BOTH cards as being one to determinate its real value. One extra card cost 2 mana or more (see [Hearthstone Card (Glimpse Beyond) Not Found])
Total cost:
1 mana [Hearthstone Card (Yeti Yearling) Not Found] + 1 mana [Hearthstone Card (Enraged Yeti) Not Found] + 2 mana extra card = 4 mana 6/7 stats.
Impressive stats, but nothing game breaking. And this is the best case considering a top deck yeti, there is no guarantee the yetis will ever show up. The longer it takes to draw one of them, the worse it gets.
If [Hearthstone Card (Yeti Yearling) Not Found] placed [Hearthstone Card (Enraged Yeti) Not Found] directly on the top of the deck insted of shuffling 2 copies, then i agree you could argue its stats are overturned. Still, 5/5 + 1/2(that needs to die and stats spread into 2 turns) is much worse then a raw 6/7, and without keywords like Fearsome/Overwhelm it becomes easier to block as any token can do it.
As a general rule, at the start of the turn, versus a swarm deck, the first action taken should be an attack. This way, its possible to prevent both cards being played defensively.
3 relics + 3 casks + 3 Feasts + Ruination + Rekindler +... many combinations can clog when compared to the average aggro deck.
agreed
The deck is only being played now because Kalista was buffed.If you don't believe is centered around Kalista, the deck now is just weaker then it was before the Hecarin/Rekindler/Mark of the Island nerf.
thats exactly what i posted but with other words, so yeah, i also agree.Good point. Slighty worse then i expected, still believe its a very strong card nevertheless.
I just hope Nox/Piltover and Darius decks in general won't become too oppressive.
I did face this deck pre Kalista buff but bofore Rekindler and Hecarin was nerfed and i thought it performed just ok-ish.
Here are my thoughts:
Pros:
- strong early offence;
- extremely cost-efficient nexus damage;
- easy to swarm (blocking all its units may prove difficult);
- good lethal range;
- has a late game win condition that can beat control decks, despite being an aggro deck;
Cons:
- 0 defensive options.
- slower and less consistent then the average aggro deck;
- requires some setup;
- combos can be disrupted;
- too centered on Kalista being leveled;
- Rekindler combo is powerfull but too slow for the current meta.
How to counter as:
1- Aggro decks: most aggro decks should not have a problem against it, as this deck loses tempo/board control when setting stuff like shark, relic and prankster. Ignore trades until either player is in lethal range, then block with everything available.
2- Control decks: Disrupt combos, save removals for Kalista, play a big Life Steal minion and finish the game before the Rekindler loop. Or just the old good: kill him before he can kill you. Easier said then done, i know.
Now lets adress the Rekloop: it requires 2 main conditions:
1- Kalista has to level up and preferably be dead by the time Rekindler is played;
2- Rekindler has to die before Kalista attacks;
If those 2 conditions are met, the deck most likely will win the game.
You can deny the combo by either preventing Kalista from leveling up or finishing the game before T9.
Seriously, Rekindler is a 7 mana play and it also needs to die in order to be ressurected by Kalista. It should be enough time to close the game before that happens.
Now, if your deck can't finish games by T9, then Ez decks are a much bigger concern.
Fervor is very, VERY dangerous...
Nox/Piltover: fervor will add consistency and lethal range to an already top tier deck. Life gain cards heals very little, there is no decent early lifesteal option and mid/late game LS can be denied now by selecting the designated block unit as a sacrifice to favor. Not to mention there are a few last breath cards that deal direct damage when killed, so its drawback will actually be a plus in many situations.
First big buff to aggro decks i guess =/