Deadbloom Wanderer is nothing new, every SI deck included it as a tech against burn decks when Nox/PO was tier S. Maybe the card is still good for the current meta, maybe its not.
The problem with Ledros as a finisher is that every time the meta is slow enough to Commander Ledros be viable, so are Ezreal decks. Not only he is slower now due the nerf, but the Atrocity combo is very expensive and vulnerable to many things that are being played right now. (Anivia decks can overheal or play Harsh Winds when Anivia duplicates, Ionia will save Will of Ionia or Deny, Nab can steal the combo, its unecessary versus curve decks, etc)
And even if the deck somehow gets to tier 1 again, Frejlord currently sees a lot of play in many decks, so all that will be required to counter is to include 1-2 copies of Flash Freeze and PUFF!!!: just like that, your 15 mana combo strategy was broken by a single 3 mana card.
Another interesting fact is that your link points Corina as a S tier deck, while Mobalytics themselves gave a B rank score.
Sorry to necro this thread again, but check this out: https://lor.mobalytics.gg/meta-tier-list -> S rank -> 3rd The EZ/TF/R.I.Ptide concept we buid here finally got into their radar... and as a S tier deck no less! Sounds about right, its quite strong indeed.
Thats the second deck i helped push into the meta (or at the very least, was playing before it was meta) Thanks guys!
I agree Jagged Butcher should have a 2/1 body to be on par with other 1 mana units. I think his text could also be changed to: "The first time i see you plunder, grant me +1/+1" so it would be easier to trigger but also easier to remove with a 3/2 statline.
If you mulligan your entire hand to find Heimer, chances are that you get him 53%+ of the time in your starting hand and around 70%+ by T5. Looks consistent enough to me, and those odds are increased when other cards that also draw are played; ex.: Rummage
Edit1: Math is hard. 53,333...% is precise, 70% is an estimate minimum, the real number should be a bit higher. Edit2: 70,6209%
It's impossible to have fun by losing most of the time. Johnny himself is confirming this by whining on netdeckers all the time.
1- ALL top tier decks were Johnny decks at some point; 2- A lot of people have fun on pulling some weird combo or playing certain cards, even if those only work less then 50% of the time; (Yasuo/Teemo decks before it was meta); 3- The concepts are not cut and dry.
I am mostly a Johnny myself with a Spike side that requires the deck i craft meet at least 51% winrate for me to play it. I have a lot of fun finding stuff no one else though it could be competitive viable and see how far i can get with it. For example, take my Spider token deck, which was later called: "Endure Spiders". Its no exageration to say i am the father of this deck, as i was literally the first guy to discover and pilot it to very high ranks in a time NO ONE even knew that concept could be competitve. It wasn't listed on Mobalytic or any other site. It was only me alone, playing the deck, and very often most adversaries had no idea what they were facing until it was too late. It was a TON of fun for me. Then after some time, the deck shows up on Mobalytics as a tier B deck, having a somewhat unrefined list. At this point someone playing against me could say i was netdecking, EVEN IF I AM PLAYING MY OWN CREATION. Nowadays the deck is popular and optimized enough to the point it surpasses even my list.
What i am playing right now is another Johnny deck: EZ/TF/R.I.Ptide. The deck is actually doing very well (i say it falls somewhere around tier A<->S) and was crafted with the help of many users in this very forum. I would not be surprised if that deck concept appears someday on the radar as a possible strong netdeck option, just as Endure Spiders did.
Average players who don't netdeck wrongly think they are smarter and creative, but they just ignore facts (stats) and play bunch of tech cards to hard counter one deck (very creative) and lose all other matchups, because their deck is simply shit, not even fun, because it doesn't win.
Individuals are different from each other so each player have different ways to have fun. Do you know about the Timmy, Johnny and Spike player types?
Types of players in ccg games, originally came from mtg.
Timmy is a "power gamer" who likes things big and strong, prefers straightforward strategies and enjoys winning with a big mighty hit. Typical Timmy deck in mtg is a 'mono green Stompy' where your huge monsters just stomp on your opponent and he dies in pain.
Johnny is a "creative gamer" who likes to build interesting decks, tries different ideas and basically expresses themselves through the game. Johnny is the one who accepts the challenge to not let your memes be dreams. Also appreciates non-gameplay aspects of the game, like lore, art, etc.
Spike is a "competitive player" who plays whatever has the best chances to win. Spike knows the meta and uses all the broken stuff avaliable. Spike will netdeck, steal from the kids and suck the big falota if it brings the victory.
Braum -> insane buff. The Harrowing -> very very good. Unyielding Spirit -> very very dead... for now. Captain Farron -> from Garbage -> Decent. Pay attention: you get 3 decimates for eachtime its summoned. Poro Herder -> much better then before; still garbage. Poro ally condition must be removed for this card to see play. Anivia -> Decent on curve now, its not a disguised 10 mana champion anymore, as it should be.
Its a win condition card that requires a whole deck built around it too work most of the time. By your logic Accelerated Purrsuit needs a nerf too since it leads into; Catastrophe
You missed DoubleSummon's logic entirely and your logic is missing a logic.
First, at the start of the game, you need to figure out what is your win condition and what is your opponent's one. If the opponent on average can reach their win condition faster then you can, then usually you have to play from a control position and do your best to deny their win condition, even if your deck is build to be aggressive.
Playing as agressor: There is almost no reason to slowdown. Every turn wasted is a turn your adversary will be closer to their win condition. The exceptions are to: 1- Protect one Key Card from being removed; 2- Bait a Keycard from your opponent into a bad situation; 3- Delay a given combo due not having enough mana to pull it off or the pieces are not assembled yet; 4- You already have Lethal next turn; 5- etc;
Playing as control: You want to slowdown as much as possible. If the other player passes a turn without playing anything, always consider the possibility to end the turn right away, even if that means losing the attack token or waste mana.
What do you do? Take some time to answer those questions before clicking the spoiler tag: 1- Do you open attack? If not, which followers you play first if any? 2- Assume he passes his turn back to you after being attacked or a follower was played, what do you do now? 3- What cards are you expecting he may play on T4? 4- What is the best next T5 play he may do?
This is how i would play my turn: 1- I play Hapless Aristocrat. Its turn 4, so with that play i am expecting to bait his Twisted Fate given the board. A weak player will fall for this almost 100%. Once he plays Twisted Fate, i play Elise + Crawling Sensation and attack with everything, making Elise evolve by the end of the turn. A strong player would pass the turn back instead. 2- I attack. He may play Make it Rain here. An average player would play Twisted Fate now. A strong player would still pass. 3- I pass the turn with 3 mana without playing anything else. To be fair, now i am in a bit of an awkward position as i am either forced to gamble he didn't draw Twisted Fate and risk a bad move playing either Elise or Kalista or just pass my turn and set up Brood Awakening next turn. His best T5 play is HeimendingerBADCARDNAME + 3 mana spells, so setting up Brood Awakening is the superior choice, since this option won't give him good targets for his spells
Its hard to grasp any usefull information as people don't put the same ammount of time in the game. For example, even the best player in the world won't achieve top 50 Master without investing 8h/day at least. On the other side, there are plenty of casuals who fills lower tier ranks by playing for just a few days and then never touch the game again.
But if you want an estimative, i'd say Gold is average, Platinun is above average, Diamond is elite and Masters should be around 5% of all active accounts.
Given the title of the thread, i believe other reputable members won't even bother to answer as it does seem like a BIAS rant, which usually don't generate any productive discussions.
But if by chance you are being serious, there are plenty of other cards that are just as powerfull that will win the game by themselves with very little counterplay in expedition: Warmother's Call, Commander Ledros, The Harrowing and even Captain Farron which is considered a joke in constructed, can potentially close games you are already winning.
Pay attention to that last part: close games you are already winning.
While i agree with you Unyielding Spirit can feel very opressive to play against when we are losing, given it takes away all hope for a comeback (as every other card i've listed), it should amost never win games we are ahead outside some crazy combo with a big Lifesteal unit.
Also, for your information, at the moment there are no broken cards in the game. Riot is doing a great job so far on the balance subject.
I am starting to lose all respect on Mobalytics data.
That list is so random... lets start there are 2 VERY STRONG decks missing: Teemo buff and Lee/Vi. I play against those 2 decks ALL THE TIME on ladder but both are not even in their radar. I disagree with their power rank order entirely as well.
Midrange frostbite (Ashe/Sejuani) is a deck that is just as strong now as the old Ashe deck was before Bilgwaters. In fact, they only added Sejuani to the fold and puff, Tier A. Seems like they decided Sejuani is broken and every deck who runs has to be in their tier list.
Also Heimer/Lux + Unyielding Spirit as Tier A??? This is a fun deck i play on casual myself and i barely can win 50% of my games there.
Have you ever had any illogical feelings about something in-game?
Sometimes, i like to have fun with one of my unicorn decks (Kinkou Teemo, Heimer Purrsuit, Shipwreck Hoarder ressurect, etc) and then i face someone polite who knows how to properly use emotes, playing a weird deck, very likely doing so to grind quests.
So i leave him at one HP, followed by a mutual Shen emote... then i concede.
Even without being able to see his reaction, add as a friend or talk, it feels pretty good :)
Going back to OldManSanns point - the Kinkou Elusive deck dropped off the tier list in a way that seemed pretty arbitrary and not truly reflective of its power level. And now it's back, simply because a nerf hit the Burn Aggro deck. It's not as though the Kinkou Elusive deck was ever bad, it just dropped of the tier list because Swim deemed it so.
+1
I always felt Kinkou Elusive was S tier all along, but it dropped ranks in mobalytics due to, i think, the popularity of bannerman decks. Then bannerman got nerfed and Bilgwaters was out which greatly reduced its popularity but Kinkou Elusive never went up again, which is at the very least, strange.
Deadbloom Wanderer is nothing new, every SI deck included it as a tech against burn decks when Nox/PO was tier S.
Maybe the card is still good for the current meta, maybe its not.
The problem with Ledros as a finisher is that every time the meta is slow enough to Commander Ledros be viable, so are Ezreal decks. Not only he is slower now due the nerf, but the Atrocity combo is very expensive and vulnerable to many things that are being played right now. (Anivia decks can overheal or play Harsh Winds when Anivia duplicates, Ionia will save Will of Ionia or Deny, Nab can steal the combo, its unecessary versus curve decks, etc)
And even if the deck somehow gets to tier 1 again, Frejlord currently sees a lot of play in many decks, so all that will be required to counter is to include 1-2 copies of Flash Freeze and PUFF!!!: just like that, your 15 mana combo strategy was broken by a single 3 mana card.
Another interesting fact is that your link points Corina as a S tier deck, while Mobalytics themselves gave a B rank score.
Sorry to necro this thread again, but check this out: https://lor.mobalytics.gg/meta-tier-list -> S rank -> 3rd
The EZ/TF/R.I.Ptide concept we buid here finally got into their radar... and as a S tier deck no less!
Sounds about right, its quite strong indeed.
Thats the second deck i helped push into the meta (or at the very least, was playing before it was meta)
Thanks guys!
I agree Jagged Butcher should have a 2/1 body to be on par with other 1 mana units.
I think his text could also be changed to: "The first time i see you plunder, grant me +1/+1" so it would be easier to trigger but also easier to remove with a 3/2 statline.
He is probably implying the current young generation fights(present) for glory, while he fought(past) for legacy when he was young.
If you mulligan your entire hand to find Heimer, chances are that you get him 53%+ of the time in your starting hand and around 70%+ by T5.
Looks consistent enough to me, and those odds are increased when other cards that also draw are played; ex.: Rummage
Edit1: Math is hard. 53,333...% is precise, 70% is an estimate minimum, the real number should be a bit higher.
Edit2: 70,6209%
1- ALL top tier decks were Johnny decks at some point;
2- A lot of people have fun on pulling some weird combo or playing certain cards, even if those only work less then 50% of the time; (Yasuo/Teemo decks before it was meta);
3- The concepts are not cut and dry.
I am mostly a Johnny myself with a Spike side that requires the deck i craft meet at least 51% winrate for me to play it. I have a lot of fun finding stuff no one else though it could be competitive viable and see how far i can get with it.
For example, take my Spider token deck, which was later called: "Endure Spiders". Its no exageration to say i am the father of this deck, as i was literally the first guy to discover and pilot it to very high ranks in a time NO ONE even knew that concept could be competitve. It wasn't listed on Mobalytic or any other site. It was only me alone, playing the deck, and very often most adversaries had no idea what they were facing until it was too late.
It was a TON of fun for me.
Then after some time, the deck shows up on Mobalytics as a tier B deck, having a somewhat unrefined list.
At this point someone playing against me could say i was netdecking, EVEN IF I AM PLAYING MY OWN CREATION.
Nowadays the deck is popular and optimized enough to the point it surpasses even my list.
What i am playing right now is another Johnny deck: EZ/TF/R.I.Ptide.
The deck is actually doing very well (i say it falls somewhere around tier A<->S) and was crafted with the help of many users in this very forum.
I would not be surprised if that deck concept appears someday on the radar as a possible strong netdeck option, just as Endure Spiders did.
Do you know about the Timmy, Johnny and Spike player types?
From Urban Dictionary:
Timmy is a "power gamer" who likes things big and strong, prefers straightforward strategies and enjoys winning with a big mighty hit. Typical Timmy deck in mtg is a 'mono green Stompy' where your huge monsters just stomp on your opponent and he dies in pain.
Johnny is a "creative gamer" who likes to build interesting decks, tries different ideas and basically expresses themselves through the game. Johnny is the one who accepts the challenge to not let your memes be dreams. Also appreciates non-gameplay aspects of the game, like lore, art, etc.
Spike is a "competitive player" who plays whatever has the best chances to win. Spike knows the meta and uses all the broken stuff avaliable. Spike will netdeck, steal from the kids and suck the big falota if it brings the victory.
Oh, for some reason i thought he could only draw cards when targeted by the oponnent... this is actually quite a nice buff.
So your "solutions" are to turn the card into an unstoppable finisher that resolves as early as Turn 7 with little to no counterplay.
Petition to rename him to MeRdarda (means "big shit" in my language) as it perfectly suits this change.
Afro-Descendant salt please. #Black salt matters
Braum -> insane buff.
The Harrowing -> very very good.
Unyielding Spirit -> very very dead... for now.
Captain Farron -> from Garbage -> Decent. Pay attention: you get 3 decimates for each time its summoned.
Poro Herder -> much better then before; still garbage. Poro ally condition must be removed for this card to see play.
Anivia -> Decent on curve now, its not a disguised 10 mana champion anymore, as it should be.
Small rant: RIP my Endure spider token deck...
3 nerfs in a row: Iceborn Legacy, Brood Awakening and They Who Endure
It was fun while it lasted, well, time to move on.
Unlike Blizzard, guess Riot do listen their customers. Nab and Unyielding Spirit were changed into exactly the players were asking for.
You missed DoubleSummon's logic entirely and your logic is missing a logic.
First, at the start of the game, you need to figure out what is your win condition and what is your opponent's one.
If the opponent on average can reach their win condition faster then you can, then usually you have to play from a control position and do your best to deny their win condition, even if your deck is build to be aggressive.
Playing as agressor: There is almost no reason to slowdown. Every turn wasted is a turn your adversary will be closer to their win condition.
The exceptions are to:
1- Protect one Key Card from being removed;
2- Bait a Keycard from your opponent into a bad situation;
3- Delay a given combo due not having enough mana to pull it off or the pieces are not assembled yet;
4- You already have Lethal next turn;
5- etc;
Playing as control: You want to slowdown as much as possible. If the other player passes a turn without playing anything, always consider the possibility to end the turn right away, even if that means losing the attack token or waste mana.
Game example: Shadow Island(Elise + Kalista) vs Bilgwaters/Piltover (Heimerdinger + Twisted Fate)
Its Turn 4. You are the agressor and have the attack token, 4 mana and no spell mana. Adversary has 6 mana (4 + 2 spell mana) and also 5 cards on his hand.
Hand: Vile Feast, Crawling Sensation, Kalista, Elise, Hapless Aristocrat, Brood Awakening
Board: Spiderling + Spiderling + Spiderling. Nothing on the other side.
What do you do? Take some time to answer those questions before clicking the spoiler tag:
1- Do you open attack? If not, which followers you play first if any?
2- Assume he passes his turn back to you after being attacked or a follower was played, what do you do now?
3- What cards are you expecting he may play on T4?
4- What is the best next T5 play he may do?
Answer:
This is how i would play my turn:
1- I play Hapless Aristocrat. Its turn 4, so with that play i am expecting to bait his Twisted Fate given the board. A weak player will fall for this almost 100%. Once he plays Twisted Fate, i play Elise + Crawling Sensation and attack with everything, making Elise evolve by the end of the turn.
A strong player would pass the turn back instead.
2- I attack. He may play Make it Rain here.
An average player would play Twisted Fate now. A strong player would still pass.
3- I pass the turn with 3 mana without playing anything else. To be fair, now i am in a bit of an awkward position as i am either forced to gamble he didn't draw Twisted Fate and risk a bad move playing either Elise or Kalista or just pass my turn and set up Brood Awakening next turn.
His best T5 play is HeimendingerBADCARDNAME + 3 mana spells, so setting up Brood Awakening is the superior choice, since this option won't give him good targets for his spells
Have fun!
Its hard to grasp any usefull information as people don't put the same ammount of time in the game.
For example, even the best player in the world won't achieve top 50 Master without investing 8h/day at least.
On the other side, there are plenty of casuals who fills lower tier ranks by playing for just a few days and then never touch the game again.
But if you want an estimative, i'd say Gold is average, Platinun is above average, Diamond is elite and Masters should be around 5% of all active accounts.
Given the title of the thread, i believe other reputable members won't even bother to answer as it does seem like a BIAS rant, which usually don't generate any productive discussions.
But if by chance you are being serious, there are plenty of other cards that are just as powerfull that will win the game by themselves with very little counterplay in expedition:
Warmother's Call,
Commander Ledros,
The Harrowing and even
Captain Farron which is considered a joke in constructed, can potentially close games you are already winning.
Pay attention to that last part: close games you are already winning.
While i agree with you Unyielding Spirit can feel very opressive to play against when we are losing, given it takes away all hope for a comeback (as every other card i've listed), it should amost never win games we are ahead outside some crazy combo with a big Lifesteal unit.
Also, for your information, at the moment there are no broken cards in the game.
Riot is doing a great job so far on the balance subject.
I am starting to lose all respect on Mobalytics data.
That list is so random... lets start there are 2 VERY STRONG decks missing: Teemo buff and Lee/Vi.
I play against those 2 decks ALL THE TIME on ladder but both are not even in their radar.
I disagree with their power rank order entirely as well.
Midrange frostbite (Ashe/Sejuani) is a deck that is just as strong now as the old Ashe deck was before Bilgwaters.
In fact, they only added Sejuani to the fold and puff, Tier A. Seems like they decided Sejuani is broken and every deck who runs has to be in their tier list.
Also Heimer/Lux + Unyielding Spirit as Tier A???
This is a fun deck i play on casual myself and i barely can win 50% of my games there.
Sometimes, i like to have fun with one of my unicorn decks (Kinkou Teemo, Heimer Purrsuit, Shipwreck Hoarder ressurect, etc) and then i face someone polite who knows how to properly use emotes, playing a weird deck, very likely doing so to grind quests.
So i leave him at one HP, followed by a mutual Shen emote... then i concede.
Even without being able to see his reaction, add as a friend or talk, it feels pretty good :)
+1
I always felt Kinkou Elusive was S tier all along, but it dropped ranks in mobalytics due to, i think, the popularity of bannerman decks.
Then bannerman got nerfed and Bilgwaters was out which greatly reduced its popularity but Kinkou Elusive never went up again, which is at the very least, strange.