I love the design of this card. To be honest this makes me wish other cards had such "or" situations where they provided different effects depending on when they were played. Daybreak and Nightfall, while easy to understand on a basic level create very interesting situations and require planning to fully gain value from.
I'm confused. Why didn't they just print "Give a unit +2/2 and elusive this round" instead of "I can block a unit with elusive"? Functionally they are the same. I mean my only reasoning is that they didn't want this to be used aggressively, and wanted this to be used purely as a defensive card.
I hope to god this is not the norm for LoR. I've really started enjoying the game, and immersion and the universe LoR brings to the cards. This completely breaks that immersion for me.
And to top it off it's a forced shitty K pop band that Riot is apparently trying to cram down people's throats at that.
Well, he started, I am against personal attacks, but he didn't have to ridicule my use of some words I don't even use myself.. what's even the point to do that?
Ctrl F
Find Explicit
2 Results above my first post. Both from DoubleSummon.
I was poking fun at the point you were making that your entire "card defense" hinged on win the game conditions being "explicit" in the card description or not. And I was poking holes in that defense by rebutting with evidence and experience.
You're welcome to disagree, or even hold your ground (props to you for sticking to your guns even when facing adversity, regardless if you are correct or not).
However, what I said was so far removed from "personal attacks" it's not even funny. I think you probably need to go google ad hominem and come back. A personal attack would be "DoubleSummon, you're dumb and you don't know what your talking about. You're just a scrub who is new. git gud"
That, in theory would be a personal attack.
I said that you loved to use the word explicit, so I bolded it for you. That is a jab at your logical defense. Not a personal attack. Learn the difference. On the flip side, saying that you are "sorry for using words that I don't understand" is using an assumed passive aggressive statement that implies that I'm too dumb to understand what the word explicit means.
My jab = You love this word so I'm poking fun at you for using it as your card defense lynchpin.
Your comment = You're too dumb to understand this word.
If anything, your attack is an implied ad hominem. Mine is not.
My point is to not panic when you see "win the game" other cards also have that text but not explicit...
Something saying "Win the game if X condition is fufilled" is always a cause for some alarm. While other cards/champions may not have something EXPLICITY (since you seem to love that word I bolded it for you) written on them that wins the game, yes they may win the game none-the-less.
In your examples you listed ASol, Ezreal, Shudderwock.
One is from a different game that has very little counterplay available to it, so while I understand your premise, the games are far enough apparent in the way that they play that I feel like comparing the cards does very little for any actual discussion.....moving on to the other two.
Asol, while his level up ability is EXTREMELY powerful, can still be played around or beaten. Ezreal, while his level up ability may enable some OTK combos, it does require the opponent to have the right cards in hand. Many cards MAY implicity equate to winning the game, but don't actually tell the game engine: "Ok this game is over, cause this player fufilled X condition". You can still play around things like Ez, Asol, Riptide Rex, etc. And in fact, there's MANY ways to do this against all of those.
Against riptide rex you can go wide, or you can use direct healing to put yourself out of lethal range. There's actually a lot that can be used to counter him. Same goes for ez, asol, and other units. In fact I'd argue that Fiora, who has a similar mechanic as Star Spring, is a good comparison because as a regular champion unit, many different things can interact with her. Single combat, spells, etc.
The problem with star spring is that because landmark removal is most likely going to be at a premium, it's going to force the Targon region even more than before. As if having Bastion (effectively a 3 cost deny for single target removal) wasn't strong enough, now they'll have a value generator (passive heal every round) and an alternate win condition.
Hell. Decks that won't even run healing spells will probably run that landmark just because of the value it can generate over the course of a game and the small chance of an alternate win condition. The only thing a landmark like that will do is either A) create a targon based meta, or B) create a hyper aggro meta.
The nerf to Cosmic Inspiration was not surprising at all. I always felt like the mana refund made the card an auto-pick. If you had 3 spell mana banked up before using it, then it was not a tempo loss at all. It always felt way overtuned even as a "powerful celestial card" because of it. Now that it doesn't refund spell mana, it's going to be a much bigger tempo loss to anyone playing it. Still a great card, but should only see play when a Targon deck has stabilized, instead of using it whenever they feel like it to close out a game without any consideration to board state.
Bastion on paper makes sense to make it proactive (considering they wanted it to synergize with Taric) but it's 3 mana cost may be problematic. I forsee them increasing the cost to 4. My reasoning behind this simple: Bastion acts like a deny, but because it's a spellshield can be done proactively. There's no reason it should be 3 mana when it acts nearly as effectively as Ionia's Deny spell barring a few edge cases.
I'm looking forward to Grandfather Rumuul (sp?) though. I think he was a decent enough card, especially in expeditions. So I'm excited to see if he'll make his way into any top tier decks.
Agreed. Not to mention but every time in the past I've tried heroic brawliseum it's most of the time "who's playing the smorciest deck?" It would be way more fun if they put some deckbuilding restrictions into these, but at this point I feel like Blizz can't be arsed to do anything for any of their games
I don't see what the point of Spacey Sketcher is in this deck. You can't afford to discard anything else, and if you don't get any gems in hand early, you can't really use them effectively.
I get the point, discard gems to gain powerful celestials, but I often find that Mentor/Gem Keepers seem to come way too late.
Seems like a pretty good guess for Petty Officer. My guess is that Taric is leveling up too easily and they'll change or increase his level up requirements. I think that having his level up be "i've seen allies get targeted or supported" is too flexible and they'll make it "I've seen X allies get targeted by friendly spells". or maybe something more unique. I'd like to see them come up with more unique ways for level ups to occur to be honest. I know that might require additional mechanics, but as it is I feel like they've already painted themselves into a corner.
There's no need to insult a subset of a playerbase just because they like a particular card.
How is that an insult? Do you even know what it means? "Timmy" is just a slang term (not pejorative) referring to players who like to play big units with powerful effects. No judgment attached.
Stop looking for ways to be offended, and you'll be a lot happier.
Upon first reading it, your statement felt like a pejorative term. (My mind immediately went back to OG seasons of south park and "Timmay") I figured you were calling people who liked to play Asol/Control decks simple minded (to be PC about it). It's not the first time these forums, or others have dealt with that mindset either. I'm sure even if you don't play Hearthstone on the regular you are familiar with people who whine and bitch about Rez Priest, even though it's a valid, good archetype, people whine about it because it stomps on their aggro plans. Point being, I've seen people isolate and witch hunt control deck players the minute a good control archetype comes to power.
Also, once again...no need to insult people. You could have completely left out your second sentence and your reply would have been just peachy. Don't tell me how to feel, and I can assure you, I wasn't "looking for ways to be offended". I don't need your advice on how to live my own happy life thank you very much.
And for the record, I actually agree with your original thread post and upvoted it. I think you have pointed out some contradictions by 'popular' players and highlighted the fact that a small spread in deck winrates proves that most decks are relatively balanced for the most part.
That link is set to the timestamp where those descriptions come up, but I would recommend watching the whole thing if you're a fan of CCGs generally - there's a lot of good design insights in it.
Thanks for explaining meisterz. I actually remember watching part of this video a few years ago. I remember the part about the spikes. I completely forgot about the terms for "timmy" and "jenny" type players.
I actually still don't think ASOL itself is a problem card. Though according to today's patch notes they may be changing his level up requirements in the future. IMO the most problematic card is actually Cosmic Inspiration. To me it needs to be nerfed to not refill spell mana. As it stands if you cast this on turn 10 with full mana (10+3) It can become obscene since you can cast it twice in a single turn and still be left with 3 mana and 3 spell mana. I understand it's a celestial card and therefore supposed to feel powerful, but it either needs to cost more (and refill spell mana), or not refill spell mana at all. As it stands if you float mana from turns 1-2, and then play celestials on turns 3-4. You can get this out as early as turn 5 which can be backbreaking to play against, even if you yourself are playing a similar deck.
Quote From FortyDust
(along with all the Timmy players loving ASol)
There's no need to insult a subset of a playerbase just because they like a particular card.
So as title states. I'm trying to create a singleton deck for the gauntlet and it's not letting me. I go to my collection, select "singleton" under special rules, then I click "new deck". Try to add cards and the minute I try to add a 3rd region it errors out saying "you can't add more than 2 regions"
What gives? How the f am I supposed to create a singleton deck? (I wasn't playing LoR last time there was a singleton gauntlet, didn't have time to play, so I apologize in advance if this has been answered before).
Oh boy. I feel like I'm watching history repeat itself...but instead of Heroes of the Storm, it's now Hearthstone Battlegrounds. God speed Blizzard, I wish you best of luck in figuring out how to make groups fair in a ranked setting.
Talking about good or bad design is difficult if you do not know what something was designed for in the first place. I personally am not thrilled about Call of the Mountain. I do not like RNG , i am not a fan of cards like Aurelion Sol , and i do not enjoy games that i win or lose almost regardless of what i have been doing.
If this expansion was designed to cater to my needs, than that was poorly done. But i give Riot some credit and will assume that there is another crowd out there (most likely consisting of people that spend actual money) that expects effortless wins, BIG plays, smashing combos and ridiculous RNG swings.
Hearthstone does not sit on the Iron Throne for nothing.
Cater to your needs? Snide comments at people who may pay for cosmetics? More snide comments assuming that anyone who likes Asol expects "effortless wins"?
Not sure what you were expecting with your first response, but I wouldn't expect a warm welcome with an opening statement like that.
As someone who has played pure Asol decks, and decks without Asol, and games where I never drew an Asol. I can assure you that creative play can make it so you can kill the big boi. And playing them is actually difficult. Especially in a pure deck where you don't have a ton of great stat value. (Most of the invoke cards are sub-par in stats so they are very poor tempo plays).
Noone is questioning that Asol isn't a value card. He's probably the "king of value" in LoR. But when it comes to tempo, most competent people will tell you that Asol decks generally aren't tempo decks. Most of the decks include many sources of healing because you'll be low while trying to stem the flow of blood from any aggro or midrange deck that is looking to close you out early.
You forgot about how if you play Targon vs other Targon decks, it usually boils down to whoever levels up Sol first. Jokes aside, I can understand your frustration, but you should probably consider trying to tune your deck to hyper aggro if you don't get Targon in your draft expedition. In either case, the bonus to get Targon stuff should subside in a week or two and the drafts will go back to normal distributions.
The best part of the deck was using the many Zenith Blades, along with burst spells to essentially negate my opponents removal. Zenith blades made my Fizz stick to the board better and be a bigger threat on chip damage, and burst spells helped prevent any sort of removal used against him. It was honestly a huge surprise to see this deck do so well. And made me consider how viable a fizz/targon deck might be.
So anyhow lucky draws aside, I did have a question about expeditions...
Since I got 7 wins on my first trial, I got the 1600 bonus exp for the 7 wins. However, In the past when I've gotten 6 or 7 wins. I would go on to play a 2nd trial (just for fun). However, when I open my rewards at the end of my usually worse 2nd trial...my rewards have felt like they were extremely sub par for 6 or 7 wins.
If I go 7 wins in the first trial, but then like 2 or 3 wins in the 2nd trial....does it take my 2nd trials results over my 1st trials for the rewards (regarding cards/capsules/shards?).
I love the design of this card. To be honest this makes me wish other cards had such "or" situations where they provided different effects depending on when they were played. Daybreak and Nightfall, while easy to understand on a basic level create very interesting situations and require planning to fully gain value from.
For once, I actually agree wholeheartedly with you
I'm confused. Why didn't they just print "Give a unit +2/2 and elusive this round" instead of "I can block a unit with elusive"? Functionally they are the same. I mean my only reasoning is that they didn't want this to be used aggressively, and wanted this to be used purely as a defensive card.
I hope to god this is not the norm for LoR. I've really started enjoying the game, and immersion and the universe LoR brings to the cards. This completely breaks that immersion for me.
And to top it off it's a forced shitty K pop band that Riot is apparently trying to cram down people's throats at that.
I was poking fun at the point you were making that your entire "card defense" hinged on win the game conditions being "explicit" in the card description or not. And I was poking holes in that defense by rebutting with evidence and experience.
You're welcome to disagree, or even hold your ground (props to you for sticking to your guns even when facing adversity, regardless if you are correct or not).
However, what I said was so far removed from "personal attacks" it's not even funny. I think you probably need to go google ad hominem and come back. A personal attack would be "DoubleSummon, you're dumb and you don't know what your talking about. You're just a scrub who is new. git gud"
That, in theory would be a personal attack.
I said that you loved to use the word explicit, so I bolded it for you. That is a jab at your logical defense. Not a personal attack. Learn the difference. On the flip side, saying that you are "sorry for using words that I don't understand" is using an assumed passive aggressive statement that implies that I'm too dumb to understand what the word explicit means.
My jab = You love this word so I'm poking fun at you for using it as your card defense lynchpin.
Your comment = You're too dumb to understand this word.
If anything, your attack is an implied ad hominem. Mine is not.
Something saying "Win the game if X condition is fufilled" is always a cause for some alarm. While other cards/champions may not have something EXPLICITY (since you seem to love that word I bolded it for you) written on them that wins the game, yes they may win the game none-the-less.
In your examples you listed ASol, Ezreal, Shudderwock.
One is from a different game that has very little counterplay available to it, so while I understand your premise, the games are far enough apparent in the way that they play that I feel like comparing the cards does very little for any actual discussion.....moving on to the other two.
Asol, while his level up ability is EXTREMELY powerful, can still be played around or beaten. Ezreal, while his level up ability may enable some OTK combos, it does require the opponent to have the right cards in hand. Many cards MAY implicity equate to winning the game, but don't actually tell the game engine: "Ok this game is over, cause this player fufilled X condition". You can still play around things like Ez, Asol, Riptide Rex, etc. And in fact, there's MANY ways to do this against all of those.
Against riptide rex you can go wide, or you can use direct healing to put yourself out of lethal range. There's actually a lot that can be used to counter him. Same goes for ez, asol, and other units. In fact I'd argue that Fiora, who has a similar mechanic as Star Spring, is a good comparison because as a regular champion unit, many different things can interact with her. Single combat, spells, etc.
The problem with star spring is that because landmark removal is most likely going to be at a premium, it's going to force the Targon region even more than before. As if having Bastion (effectively a 3 cost deny for single target removal) wasn't strong enough, now they'll have a value generator (passive heal every round) and an alternate win condition.
Hell. Decks that won't even run healing spells will probably run that landmark just because of the value it can generate over the course of a game and the small chance of an alternate win condition. The only thing a landmark like that will do is either A) create a targon based meta, or B) create a hyper aggro meta.
The nerf to Cosmic Inspiration was not surprising at all. I always felt like the mana refund made the card an auto-pick. If you had 3 spell mana banked up before using it, then it was not a tempo loss at all. It always felt way overtuned even as a "powerful celestial card" because of it. Now that it doesn't refund spell mana, it's going to be a much bigger tempo loss to anyone playing it. Still a great card, but should only see play when a Targon deck has stabilized, instead of using it whenever they feel like it to close out a game without any consideration to board state.
Bastion on paper makes sense to make it proactive (considering they wanted it to synergize with Taric) but it's 3 mana cost may be problematic. I forsee them increasing the cost to 4. My reasoning behind this simple: Bastion acts like a deny, but because it's a spellshield can be done proactively. There's no reason it should be 3 mana when it acts nearly as effectively as Ionia's Deny spell barring a few edge cases.
I'm looking forward to Grandfather Rumuul (sp?) though. I think he was a decent enough card, especially in expeditions. So I'm excited to see if he'll make his way into any top tier decks.
Give this man an administrative position! Seriously 3 paragraphs is more in tune than their entire team.
Agreed. Not to mention but every time in the past I've tried heroic brawliseum it's most of the time "who's playing the smorciest deck?" It would be way more fun if they put some deckbuilding restrictions into these, but at this point I feel like Blizz can't be arsed to do anything for any of their games
I don't see what the point of Spacey Sketcher is in this deck. You can't afford to discard anything else, and if you don't get any gems in hand early, you can't really use them effectively.
I get the point, discard gems to gain powerful celestials, but I often find that Mentor/Gem Keepers seem to come way too late.
Ah, you're right. I misread that 2nd part entirely.
Seems like a pretty good guess for Petty Officer. My guess is that Taric is leveling up too easily and they'll change or increase his level up requirements. I think that having his level up be "i've seen allies get targeted or supported" is too flexible and they'll make it "I've seen X allies get targeted by friendly spells". or maybe something more unique. I'd like to see them come up with more unique ways for level ups to occur to be honest. I know that might require additional mechanics, but as it is I feel like they've already painted themselves into a corner.
Upon first reading it, your statement felt like a pejorative term. (My mind immediately went back to OG seasons of south park and "Timmay") I figured you were calling people who liked to play Asol/Control decks simple minded (to be PC about it). It's not the first time these forums, or others have dealt with that mindset either. I'm sure even if you don't play Hearthstone on the regular you are familiar with people who whine and bitch about Rez Priest, even though it's a valid, good archetype, people whine about it because it stomps on their aggro plans. Point being, I've seen people isolate and witch hunt control deck players the minute a good control archetype comes to power.
Also, once again...no need to insult people. You could have completely left out your second sentence and your reply would have been just peachy. Don't tell me how to feel, and I can assure you, I wasn't "looking for ways to be offended". I don't need your advice on how to live my own happy life thank you very much.
And for the record, I actually agree with your original thread post and upvoted it. I think you have pointed out some contradictions by 'popular' players and highlighted the fact that a small spread in deck winrates proves that most decks are relatively balanced for the most part.
Thanks for explaining meisterz. I actually remember watching part of this video a few years ago. I remember the part about the spikes. I completely forgot about the terms for "timmy" and "jenny" type players.
I actually still don't think ASOL itself is a problem card. Though according to today's patch notes they may be changing his level up requirements in the future. IMO the most problematic card is actually Cosmic Inspiration. To me it needs to be nerfed to not refill spell mana. As it stands if you cast this on turn 10 with full mana (10+3) It can become obscene since you can cast it twice in a single turn and still be left with 3 mana and 3 spell mana. I understand it's a celestial card and therefore supposed to feel powerful, but it either needs to cost more (and refill spell mana), or not refill spell mana at all. As it stands if you float mana from turns 1-2, and then play celestials on turns 3-4. You can get this out as early as turn 5 which can be backbreaking to play against, even if you yourself are playing a similar deck.
There's no need to insult a subset of a playerbase just because they like a particular card.
So as title states. I'm trying to create a singleton deck for the gauntlet and it's not letting me. I go to my collection, select "singleton" under special rules, then I click "new deck". Try to add cards and the minute I try to add a 3rd region it errors out saying "you can't add more than 2 regions"
What gives? How the f am I supposed to create a singleton deck? (I wasn't playing LoR last time there was a singleton gauntlet, didn't have time to play, so I apologize in advance if this has been answered before).
You had a sweet (but missed) opportunity to call your deck "Tenacious D" lol
Oh boy. I feel like I'm watching history repeat itself...but instead of Heroes of the Storm, it's now Hearthstone Battlegrounds. God speed Blizzard, I wish you best of luck in figuring out how to make groups fair in a ranked setting.
Cater to your needs? Snide comments at people who may pay for cosmetics? More snide comments assuming that anyone who likes Asol expects "effortless wins"?
Not sure what you were expecting with your first response, but I wouldn't expect a warm welcome with an opening statement like that.
As someone who has played pure Asol decks, and decks without Asol, and games where I never drew an Asol. I can assure you that creative play can make it so you can kill the big boi. And playing them is actually difficult. Especially in a pure deck where you don't have a ton of great stat value. (Most of the invoke cards are sub-par in stats so they are very poor tempo plays).
Noone is questioning that Asol isn't a value card. He's probably the "king of value" in LoR. But when it comes to tempo, most competent people will tell you that Asol decks generally aren't tempo decks. Most of the decks include many sources of healing because you'll be low while trying to stem the flow of blood from any aggro or midrange deck that is looking to close you out early.
You forgot about how if you play Targon vs other Targon decks, it usually boils down to whoever levels up Sol first. Jokes aside, I can understand your frustration, but you should probably consider trying to tune your deck to hyper aggro if you don't get Targon in your draft expedition. In either case, the bonus to get Targon stuff should subside in a week or two and the drafts will go back to normal distributions.
Just got 7 wins with the following deck:
Proof:
The best part of the deck was using the many Zenith Blades, along with burst spells to essentially negate my opponents removal. Zenith blades made my Fizz stick to the board better and be a bigger threat on chip damage, and burst spells helped prevent any sort of removal used against him. It was honestly a huge surprise to see this deck do so well. And made me consider how viable a fizz/targon deck might be.
So anyhow lucky draws aside, I did have a question about expeditions...
Since I got 7 wins on my first trial, I got the 1600 bonus exp for the 7 wins. However, In the past when I've gotten 6 or 7 wins. I would go on to play a 2nd trial (just for fun). However, when I open my rewards at the end of my usually worse 2nd trial...my rewards have felt like they were extremely sub par for 6 or 7 wins.
If I go 7 wins in the first trial, but then like 2 or 3 wins in the 2nd trial....does it take my 2nd trials results over my 1st trials for the rewards (regarding cards/capsules/shards?).