Surprise! Blizzard has released a Friday balance patch with no warning today. We've got a nerf to Edwin VanCleef, one of Hearthstone's original legendary cards, and to Boggspine Knuckles, a problematic Shaman weapon. We've also got a change to Elistra the Immortal in Battlegrounds. Read on for more details!
Update: Cora has stated that the change does not mean Edwin won't be Hall of Famed and potentially unnerfed if they determine he should be moved there in the future. This is good to hear as Edwin has been on the desired Hall of Fame list for quite some time.
Update 2: Alec says that Edwin is rotating this year and he will be unnerfed.
Update 3: Please read our dedicated post concerning Edwin and the new year.
Quote From Cora You can only run from us for so long, Edwin.
In all seriousness, I'm seeing questions about why we would nerf Edwin instead of moving him to HoF. This nerf doesn't mean he won't be moved, and potentially even unnerfed at that time if it's the right call. This is a fix for now.
Quote From Alec Dawson Also sorry this didn't get into the notes but: Yes Edwin will still rotate later this year and yes we will be reverting the nerf (along with others) at that time.
Quote From Blizzard We’ve got a small balance patch with a few big changes planned for release this Friday, January 8!
Standard Balance Updates
Edwin VanCleef
- Old: [Costs 3] → New: [Costs 4]
- Dev Comment: The last few weeks have been the best Edwin has ever performed as an individual card (the highest win rate card in multiple Rogue archetypes). Alongside cards like Foxy Fraud and Shadowstep, the frequency of early 8/8 or 10/10 Edwin VanCleefs reached a point we are no longer comfortable with. We want to evaluate how the rest of Rogue's kit performs without this very powerful iteration of Edwin. Cards like Foxy Fraud, Swindle, and Prize Plunderer are important pieces for future expansions and card interactions, so we'll be keeping close tabs on how they perform with the influx of new cards and Edwin's nerf.
Boggspine Knuckles
- Old: 4 Attack → New: 3 Attack
- Dev Comment: We're lowering the attack on Boggspine Knuckles in order to cut into the fluidity of Evolve Shaman, increasing the required investment of playing a 5-mana weapon without a free Dread Corsair, and reduce the overall damage output the deck is capable of over multiple weapon charges. This change lowers the amount of explosive plays available to Evolve Shaman and should create an overall healthier meta.
Edwin VanCleef and Boggspine Knuckles will be eligible for a full dust refund for 2 weeks after the 19.2.1 patch goes live.
Battlegrounds Balance Update
Elistra the Immortal
- Old: 7 Attack, 7 Health → New: 4 Attack, 4 Health
Bug Fixes
- Fixed a bug where Infinite Toki’s Temporal Tavern would not function correctly with the New Recruit Darkmoon Prize.
- Fixed a bug where Ysera’s Dream Portal, when used with the New Recruit Darkmoon Prize, would not offer a Dragon when Bob’s Tavern is full.
Comments
My thoughts right now on these nerfs & potential next meta:
-Edwin VanCleef: This is a GIANT nerf, that is like 6 years overdue. This weakens Edwin VanCleef a bit, BUT the Foxy Fraud into [Hearthstone Card (Backstep) Not Found] into Foxy Fraud into 0 mana Edwin VanCleef combo still exists.. This nerf will make BIG Edwin VanCleefs that steal games less common which is always a good thing. Also now by the time you play the BIG [Hearthstone Card (Edwin Cancleef) Not Found], your opponent will now have a 3 drop on the field. So that makes it easier to clear it.
The most interesting thing is that i heard people say that edwin rotates? (Didn't see any RECENT announcement about it yet, but i do remember that they said that they were keeping a close eye on edwin last year.) If Edwin rotates that will be a big hit to all rogue archetypes, so i hope they will add a GOOD, and not a broken legendary in exchange. (And i kinda hope they will buff Edwin back to 3 mana if it rotates, it's not THAT bad in wild. Most good/meta wild Rogue decks don't run Edwin, last time i checked..)
-Boggspine Knuckles: AMAZING NERF! The +1 mana cost option wouldn't have really changed things, but this 1 attack nerf is HUGE. Now Shamans can't go FACE with their 4 Boggspine Knuckles for 32 Damage! Now they only deal 24 damage if all swings go FACE! Not only that, but now Dread Corsair can't get reduced to 0 mana, now Shamans actually need to pay 1 mana for it! This will seriously tone down Evolve shaman and i'm so glad it gets toned down! But i also feel bad about Shaman players. First their main favorite class was the worst in the game, and then it became meta OP AF and now their going back to being close to, if not the worst class again. Why is Shaman ALWAYS horrible, or OP AF and never inbetween?...
Well with these 2 aggro BEASTS of decks nerfed, i think the meta will change i little bit. Pure paladin remains a strong deck, and now it's biggest counter Whirlkick Rogue took a big hit, so that deck is a lot better than before. Actually now that i look at it, Pure Paladins only really bad matchup is Galakrondlock and Secret Rogue. Both of those decks were completely oppressed by Evolve Shaman so they might be playable now? And those 2 decks are both weak to Face Hunter. And Face Hunter is HORRIBLE against Pure Paladin. So my guess is that the next "meta" triangle will be:
Pure Paladin -Beats-> Face Hunter -Beats-> Galakrondlock & Secret Rogue* -Beats-> Pure Paladin.
*Galakrondlock has good WR against Secret Rogue so that might weaken Secret Rogue a bit.
That being said i really hope the next meta will be a lot more fun! Cuz that's what i feel HS needs a lot more right now.
The cost increase is going to have a significant impact on Edwin. It makes him slower, it makes Shadowstep worse and reduces the potential for those big early game swings. The nerf to the weapon is going to slow it down as well. It will deal less damage and it will prevent Dread Corsair swings. It will still be strong but it should stop it from choking the meta. This won't make me want to play ranked again though. The nerf to Elistra is pretty harsh but she is too strong as a tempo play which isn't supposed to be her role. She is a tech card and should be used for this purpose only.
I don't really like this change, it introduces almost no change and I'm still not motivated to play until the mid expansion set. Bogspine attack is still too high and edwin is actually still ok at 4 mana. What saddens me is that edwin will rotate and I fear rogue will have no viable tempo archetype.
Dang, hanging on to that extra Edwin VanCleef from before duplicate-protection was a thing finally paid off.
I'll probably disenchant all copies of the card, then when we get second confirmation of its upcoming HoF status, craft a gold one for funsies. It won't be missed in the meantime as the rogue decks I play in wild don't use it.
Edit: just read that there is not going to be a Hall of Fame as we know it, so just going to disenchant all my Edwins and wait for their next announcement.
OOOOH with Edwin rotating I wonder who'll they'll have as the new Rogue legendary?
It'll probably be someone new, but Xaril, Poisoned Mind is such a good representative of the class' mechanics that I would approve of him being promoted to Classic. In one card you have all of:
A mantid would be a bit weird as the representative in Classic though. Re-skin him as Vanessa VanCleef and its perfect since she is also a poisons user. Actually, using Vanessa is quite likely now I think of it...
Or know just design new card and then coudl have xaril and Vanessa in the game.
They could and they probably will, but when talking about making an evergreen card there is merit to using what we know works. As the saying goes: there is no point in reinventing the wheel.
As much as I like the card, Xaril's power level is too low to compete in Wild, so he might as well not exist at the moment. Yes, you could argue for buffing him - and he'd be a good target for that - but I still believe he'd be a perfect fit for Classic as he is.
Of course, this whole argument only holds if Blizz wants a card like Xaril in Classic. If they want Edwin's replacement to go in a different direction then it is like comparing apples with oranges, so there's little point in dwelling too much on the idea.
And he'd be super weak in standard aswell, it be classic Yeah but classic shouldnt gabrage tier either. It should still be something decentt/Good enough and xairl wouldnt make it in standard at all either
In some metas yes, but I don't think he's a fundamentally weak card. With a bit of miracle rogue support he can pull his weight. Plus, I wouldn't be against a small stat buff to a 4/2 or 3/3 if need be. If the stats are refined he can feel like a card that would be considered in lots of archetypes, without being an auto-include.
Perhaps more than any other cards, Classic class legendaries should excite players about class mechanics. Edwin's design was good in this regard as he had a serious reward for stringing several cards together, but some are much less successful. E.g. I would say Natalie Seline is a very bad design for Classic legendary because it doesn't get anyone interested in priest. She's not a particularly bad card (it hasn't helped that aggro has dominated all year), she just doesn't invite you to do any priestly things. Xaril's strength, on the other hand, is that he is an open invitation to try out almost all the class has to offer, which makes him a great ambassador for the class.
Perhaps I'll make a thread about my thoughts on this over the weekend. I'd be interested to hear everyone else's views on what makes a good Classic legendary.
Satine is bad thougj,spending almost if nto entire turn in lategame to remove 1minion is hoenstly not good. Selien would be inetresting at like 6 mana 6/1 with same effect much better control and still allows for tempo aswell which i feel she is kinda mleant to be. And wpuld come down on tme still. And blizz sees her as doing priesty things,cause shadow themed (barly really) and is removal so priest identity.
With stat boost xaril is good but 3/2 stats on 4 drop then gott spend 2more mana is just to weak to few stat for his cost and unlike like sonya (who was/is niche still ) isnt cheap enough that can combi it with other stuff in same turn cause he +potions cost 6mana nad thats msot of turn gone already. If was 3 2/2 could do questin on 3, then xaril +potion on 4 and be far more ok satt wise and on curve play.
Natalie Seline isn't a bad card. It was in every Highlander Priest while that was still viable a few months ago. We're just in a bad meta for it right now. If Control Warrior or Control Warlock is the best deck again (and Priest is competitive), Natalie will see play.
That's what a Classic legendary should be. A meta call.
Yeah Meta card not total garbage tier. 8mana is not good at all. for spednong on 1 removal
I had never considered it this way before, but Seline is similar to an 8-mana Mind Control. You don't copy whatever effects the minion had, but you will have 1 more health and normally have more attack too. Of course mechanically she has nothing to do with MC, which is why it looks like she doesn't represent the class very well. And I guess it doesn't help that hard removal isn't anything unique to priest.
As an aside (since I don't think anyone else is bothering to read our whole discussion) I want to say I do genuinely respect your opinions despite often disagreeing with them. I saw you get justifiably angry at a few disrespectful comments below, and while I doubt they are going to apologise, I can at least make it 100% clear that I am no enemy :)
My guess is that it could possibly his daughter, Venessa VanCleef, who took over his underworld leadership role after he died and she grew up. Lots of other possibilities, but she's a strong one.
yeah that makes sense, although I think alot of people are also hoping to have her as a new rogue hero portrait.
but hey, who knows what'll happen this year.
We still got a mid expansion to look forward and junk
ALmsot guranetd to be trash tier, like the otehr legednaries theyev added as replacents in classic.
who knows, since it'll coincide with the basic set revamp the replacement might not suck
Some funny guy has swapped the keys around on your keyboard.
Come on, don't be like that. There are many possible reasons for spelling errors, and none of them call for mockery.