I dont know how i feel about it yet. It obviously has potential to be very powerful. Also, since they made this ability into a keyword (already exists as deathrattle), this makes me think they want to put some more wordy texts on Reborn minions, which can be dangerous. Will have to wait and see.
I'm not sure what you mean regarding new players with little dust. Blizzard always prints new classic cards to replace anything they HoF and if anything, warsong commander being replaced by a halfway playable card would make warrior's basic set a lot less abysmal for f2p players
As for limiting design space, I say look towards Big Priest again. It's an amalgamation of cards that, in a balanced meta, should have limited design space all by themselves. Yet last expansion we still got Vargoth and Katerina, which pushed its power level to new heights. It would seem that they do not care about the power level of things in wild nor let wild cards that limit design space get in the way of making new cards
It's not just Big Priest either. There's mech decks making infinitly large things with with sn1p-sn4p, turn 4 voidlords, quest mages that can finish their quest as early as turn 4 and refill their hand in the same turn, standard-like rogues with patches and shark+fungalmancer. Everyone is already doing insane stuff. So what if you die on turn 7 or 8 to some kind of warsong combo? This is exactly the kind of thing that happens in wild. Mech hunters would call this lethal slow
1) Yes, that's true. However we can't predict what kind of cards the devs would implement, if they were to HOF the aforementioned sets. If those happen to be on the same power-level as the recently released ones, new or budget players would have a hard time dealing with an opponent, whose deck is tuned by the more powerful standard sets. You can disregard this counter-argument if you want, since this is just a speculation, but I doubt that the replacements would be as good as the pre-nerfed Basic and Classic sets. Also, the following is just my personal opinion, but I think it would be kinda selfish to let only wild players enjoy playing with iconic class spells or characters (especially if those are big fans of the warcraft RTS games and the MMORPG). People would feel forced to play a specific set, which wouldn't feel hospitable for them. Cuz' let's be honest, wild is not an attractive format for people with a limited collection. It becomes cheaper in the long term and I also love playing there, but I can't ignore the fact, that some have difficulties entering it.
2) and 3) I see where you are going with the "design space limitation" argument. It's true, that the power-level in wild is tremendously higher than in standard and people can do insane things early on. Though I would like to state, that design limiting cards don't come from the Basic or the Classic sets - most of them originate from the expansions. Furthermore, it's not like the devs haven't nerfed wild cards before, in order to balance the meta a bit - like the case with Aviana, Naga Sea Witch, Shadowboxer and I would argue, that Patches the Pirate and Raza the Chained are also part of this category (because back in K&C Reno Priest was a very dominant deck in wild). So the cards or combos you've mentioned above might be changed in the near future. And due to the big variety of cards there, most of the quoted combos can be countered - mech hunter is extremely vulnerable to Devolve, Defile or Brawl, Mass Hysteria, if you manage to survive until turn 5; Voidcaller is silenceable; Quest Mage needs a godlike hand to pull off such turns, which could be compared to the high-roll potential of Aggro Paladin (High Priest Thekal + Molten Giants); SN1P-SN4P requires you to have 3 other combo pieces before going off.
My issue with charge is, that there isn't much counterplay from the opponent aside from playing taunts (which didn't stop Worgen Warrior from seeing a lot of competitive play back in the days). Dakarian made a very good post, where they explained the issues of returning GP Warrior back to competitive hearthstone. And I talked about Warsong Commander's problems outside that deck - even in plain non-combo lists. Correct me if I'm wrong, but warrior didn't have a good aggro package prior to WotOG. The class slowly received a very solid pirate one, which became dominant during MSoG, and now warriors can run a burst-y mid-range mech deck in standard. Point is, Warsong Commander would be auto-included in such lists for the sake of the free face damage (and the potential burst you would get from Frothing Berserker). Speaking of which, isn't this why we see hunters playing Tundra Rhino, into Scavenging Hyena and Unleash the Hounds? Dakarian also stated, that warriors now have more ways to enrage the berserker, so charging a 15- or 20-Attack minion into the opponent's face may not be a rare scenario. And after stating this, I would like to bring another topic- in your opinion would people warmly welcome the unnerfed version of Charge?
i crafted brightwing and i have played some games with it. it's a very fun legendary
Better choice imho. Brightwing can go into pretty much any deck anytime. Not that it is a particularly great card, but since you are low on cards, you will never be sad to put it in your deck for a while, so yeah :)
As far as the second point, I'm not quite so willing to state that there's enough solutions for old Patron. Many of those choices you stated either had already proven not good enough (mal'ganis.. seriously?) or are far too weak to even stand to any meta (no one is going to play Soggoth for any reason). You can't just say "there's taunt, so it'll be fine." It has to be in a strong deck, and it has to be in a deck that can stabnd up to the rest of the meta as well. Making a deck that can ONLY beat Patron and nothing else isn't going to be viable enough of an answer.
I'm not a Wild player, so I have to ask here, of all of those decks you bring up, including Control Paladin, Quest Mage, and Handlock, which are actually doing well in the meta right now? THOSE are the ones that will have to fight Patron Warrior after all. Handlock beating Patron won't mean much if Handlock can't survive, say, Big Priest.
Lastly, the last sidepoint, the issue of Wild having little interaction is a point against Patron. If decks that offer very little interaction is a problem in Wild, adding another deck that is VERY uninteractive, like Patron, is adding a problem to a problem.
The power level of cards change greatly, either for better or worse, based on the other cards in the format's pool. Mal'Ganis is a great example of a card that outperforms in Wild despite previously seeing less impressive play in Pre-Standard. In Wild, Voidlord, Voidcaller, and Bloodreaver Gul'dan are often packaged alongside Mal'Ganis, developing board states that are as effective against Big Priest or Quest Mage as they would be against Patron Warrior. Control Warlock/Handlock/Evenlock are all decks that saw considerable success in Wild when the meta allowed for it--just a few months ago, a hand-style Evenlock was perhaps the best deck in the format.
Further on Wild metagame, Quest Mage is currently the top deck in the format, though it often gets referred to as Cyclone Mage, because it's built more around Mana Cyclone than it is around Open the Waygate. The other decks listed are either proven, successful decks that would likely see success against Patron Warrior, or decks likely to be favored against Patron Warrior.
Decks being uninteractive in Wild aren't really an issue. As it stands currently, some of the best decks in Wild include Odd Paladin, Odd Rogue, Murlock Shaman, Even Shaman, Jade Druid, and Aggro Druid. These decks succeed because they're consistently able to apply a ton of pressure to the board in a small amount of time that decks not running sufficient protection or interaction against aggressive board states fold pretty quickly. This implies a few things. First off, it obviously requires other decks to sport a pretty big package of interaction. Big Priest can no longer focus on greedier packages, and must substitute some power for protection.
Note that Blizzard has said that they are looking into addressing Big priest which suggests that such decks are NOT acceptable in the long-term in Wild. Which, again, puts Patron in question.
Quote From DakarianOn the third point... what ARE you getting at here?You talk about the usability of cards in the basic and classic set. However, are you aware that the current team is actively TRYING to make the sets less used? The entire point to the HoF is to make the sets less playable so that the meta becomes less stagnant. We don't HoF bad cards. We HoF good ones. Thus the usability of Warsong isn't an issue as it's already underplayed. If we move it, we won't replace it with something more usable. Thus Warsong isn't harming the new player experience in a way that Blizzard isn't intending since it being a bad card doesn't make it any worse than, say, Radiance.Also note that Yong Woo's philosophy no longer applies here. The current Hearthstone team has been pretty aggressive with ditching many of the old ideas from the old team, meaning they are not holding themselves to anything that was said by people like Woo or Brode. Wild has unnerfed cards, but also kept cards in their nerfed state (combo druid is still not an option).
I'm implying that Basic cards shouldn't be extremely powerful, but still be playable. The current form of Warsong Commander offers very little to new players, and will offer less and less as Charge sees less print. If Warsong Commander were to be reverted to its original text, it would likely be too powerful for the Basic set, and need rotation, but as it currently stands, the card appears to be useless now and for the future of Hearthstone. Other Basic cards at least serve some purpose, and can be used as reasonable substitutes by newer players who don't yet have superior alternatives.
I don't mean to waggle my finger and claim Team 5's divergence from previous leadership's ideas. Woo's and Brode's quotes are still experts' opinions.
On the fourth point while it is truth that design limiters isn't an issue, decks that limit the meta ARE issues. It's why they nerfed Raza priest after all. Meanwhile I don't think you established your first point enough to leave it an assumption that there's enough counters for Patron Warrior. You also aren't considering possible interactions due to the new cards. For example, the key cards in Patron are all odd, making them viable as a Baku deck. Warrior also has a lot more ways to self-damage their cards, making it easier to make a patron board, and ways to put cards back in their deck, which is something they didn't have in the past.
So not only are we not sure that the current decks are strong enough against Old Patron, but we won't be facing the old deck, but a NEW deck using 4 years of cards build under the assumption that Warsong doesn't exist.
That's not even GETTING at the unknown factor and the grand reason why Warsong, and not Patron, was nerfed. The issue wasn't just Patron being Patron but that Warsong would interact with ANYTHING 3 attack or less. Thus nerfing just Ptaron still left a potential nightmare ready to blow later on.
So have you looked at the 4 years of cards made afterwards that would LOVE to have charge? What decks will be made that are NOT Patron but be much worse.
These are some really interesting points, but slightly confusing, so apologies if I'm breaking them down incorrectly.
It's pretty apparent that cards that limit design space are issues. However, point four refers to how a card's impact on a meta is directly related to the format's card pool. I believe you slightly misconstrued that argument.
I have considered new interactions between Grim Patron and newer cards, but none of the newer cards interact with it stronger than Inner Rage and Whirlwind, because cost efficiency is a very, very important thing. I think visualizing an Odd Patron Warrior is a misunderstanding of how much the deck required Emperor Thaurissan to actually OTK. Odd Patron Warrior also abandons Inner Rage, Armorsmith, Battle Rage, Slam, Execute, Death's Bite/Blood Razor, and Unstable Ghoul. Do you mean to say that the power of what Baku provides is stronger than the synergies that allowed the deck to be successful to begin with? I understand your concern for problematic interactions with Warsong Commander, as others have considered, but few things appear objectively more powerful than what Patron Warrior was doing way back in 2014 and 2015. If you can find any problematic cards from the past 4 years that would be problematic with pre-nerf Warsong Commander, I would definitely like to hear them (keep in mind, strong is not problematic. SN1P-SN4P is a great card that would work really well with it, but less so than with Patron or Berserker).
On the fifth point... this was talked about by Frodan in a tournament at one point but it sort of hit me in an interesting way.
Patron wasn't as skill-intensive as we remember it being.
In 2015, the deck was literally playing 3d chess compared to the aggro-loving meta then, and there are some high end choices to be made. But compared to the decks pros play now and the meta....not so much. The #1 biggest factor that caused people to lose in the past was the mathmatics of the final swing:having to figure out whether you have lethal while giving yourself enough time to start the combo. It was the first deck to ever have that issue. We've had A LOT of decks that have demanded such things since then, many of which demand it just for board clears.
Decks have long since moved away from 'do me face' of those days. They are A LOT more difficult to manage, not only including the raw math calculations of Patron, but also the ability to adapt to unknown cards, the need to decide whether to go offensive, defensive, or value oriented. Compared to the current crop of decks, Patron is MUCH easier to manage, but MUCH more devastating as Patron's big calculation is "do you die now."
Patron was the start of complicated, deeper thinking decks in hearthstone. But we've moved on to much better worlds since then.
I don't really understand what you're implying by this, because it feels like a concession that Patron Warrior was the precursor to Hearthstone's shift in ideology, in that you imply decks now require on average higher consideration and deeper thinking than before. I understand the point you're trying to make that the game has become more about fair board control and an accumulation of damage over time, but in a way that had always been the case, and Patron Warrior was king because it efficiently controlled the board, and the most skilled players knew when to throw away potential OTK outs to control the state of the board. I think you absence in Wild could effect your opinion on this; three good examples of relative non-interaction in Wild are Odd Paladin's ability to go wide turn-for-turn considerably faster than other decks and thus force their opponents into initiating trades while taking considerable face damage, Odd Rogue's ability to present high, often incremental stat advantages each turn while having a very effective way of interacting with the board without sacrificing board presence in its Hero Power, which also synergizes with much of its deck, and Big Priest's ability to often just go face. These decks demand their opponents to have an excessive amount of answers, and the current, less powerful version of Patron Warrior has pretty good success against these otherwise seemingly broken, hyper-aggressive decks (I of course mean the aggro decks, not Big Priest).
The final point is really the first point addressed again: that the deck isn't as powerful as what we have now, except you are using Jace to show an example of it happening.
But again we don't know. And that WOULD be fine except that Blizzard still hasn't shown enough speed of making changes to Wild in case this isn't a Jace situation. We've seen one card change utterly gut the Wild meta. This can easily be as much a Sea Witch or a Jace. Is Blizzard willing to fix things if it turns into the former? Is reviving Patron really that needed when it's FAR from the only deck of our past that we can't return to. I can't play Raza Priest. I can't play Miracle Rogue like I used to. I can't play Undertaker Hunter. I can't play Beta Murloc Warlock or 2014 Midrange Hunter.
The concept of preserving history using Wild is already a ship that sailed. Bringing back Patron alone for that reason is arbitrary and extremely risky. If Blizzard is willing to try to bring as many of the old decks back into Wild or some other format, with the williness to rapid release changes if things turn south then I'm for it.
As we stand now, with how they are acting now, I'm not convinced that Patron can't sit in the same afterlife that Combo Druid and Yogg Druid currently sit.
The final point is actually addressing the very human effect of memory and experience on decision making and rationality (also, the first point had nothing to do with what you implied it did).
I hold the belief that things like Raza Priest and Undertaker Hunter could eventually see unnerfs in the later future when the format allows for it (personally I can't see either unnerf breaking Wild). If by Miracle Rogue you mean the deck that employed a 4-cost Leeroy Jenkins and Shadowstep to deal ~18 damage in one turn, an unnerfing and Hall of Faming of Leeroy would actually do interesting things for Wild while removing a potentially design limiting card from Standard; it would remove him from Odd decks while giving Miracle decks a burst that's not super absurd independently. Force of NatureSavage Roar, while no doubt strong, would likely not be absurd to see now if moved to Wild. And while I will always praise Yogg, comparing Yogg to any other nerf seems a bit silly, since most nerfs discussed in this thread had to do with removing or nerfing a combo, while Yogg was considered independently too good for almost all tournament decks because it would often allow players who otherwise would have lost to simply flip a coin on who would win the game by playing Yogg, and it was regarded as never wrong to play.
Oh 1 more thing to add this discussion, I mean 1 more thing that Warsong Commander needs to be unnerfed or changed again is There is not any support to Charge keyword anymore.
Charge keyword is simply replaced with Rush that means Warsong Commander won't get any support anymore.
It needs to unnerf and move to wild like Mind Blast and Vanish or need to be redesigned. I don't think there is a reason to hold it like that forever in the standard because it will be always a dead card without any new charge minions.
There are 3 options which blizzard should reconsider for Warsong Commander;
Producing new minions with charge
Unnerfing it and moving it to the HoF set
Redisgning the card again with something different
That's a very relevant point, I'm sad I missed it!
I'm willing to open all packs one by one just for that extra enthusiasm that hits when you finally see that orange glow. Wouldn't hate auto-opener as an option but also wouldn't use it.
Hard to say as both of those are very new card to the game, however between the two i think you would have the most fun with Brightwing as it will give you all kinds of other legendaries at random. Neither of them are very competitive cards at the moment though.
Also, as a new player you may find some useful info in our New Player's Guide if you haven't found it yet :)
We'll know when the card comes out, but my gut feeling says that the quest won't be very good in wild, simply because Brann does the same thing but with no strings attached. Your most powerful battlecries('Wock, C'thun) can't be combined with the Brann HP anyway due to mana constraints, and the fact that you have to play 5 battlecries in order to unlock it means that you won't be able to use the double battlecry until fairly late in the game.
Now sure, there's an argument for running both the quest and Brann, but I think that with C'thun buffs and jades the payoff is too little, too late for the quest. The one card that justifies running it IMO is Swampqueen Hagatha.
I think it will be very deck-specific AND depend heavily on the Reborn cards. You'll need to have both to be effective - basically I'm betting it's another Echo that has maybe 2 or 3 cards that see regular play, 1 or 2 that are deck-situational, and the other dozen are never heard from again after launch.
The mummy they revealed probably won't see much play for example because Rush Warrior isn't really a thing. Now if there are Reborn mechs I can see that being good for Mech Warrior/Hunter since it will leave a body to magnetize on after the first death and retain board presence. I could also see it being very good for Res Priest if they get minions that fit into the Res pool effectively. Ditto for Mage if they get heavy targets for Conjurer's Calling. Mainly, however, I'm really hoping for some big neutral/Warlock minions as this keyword seems like exactly what would help push Shuffle Warlock out of meme status. Fel Lord Betrug pulling out Reborn minions who can attack and be retained on-board (more or less) after drawing would definitely help the archetype.
Restless mummy is a more flexible Militia Commander, a card which is in virtually every warrior list out there. The vast majority of warriors run a 5 card rush package of Zilliax, 2 Militia commander 2 Town Crier.
Just because people aren't playing that godawful warrior loa or Akali the Rhino doesn't mean Warriors won't be all over Restless Mummy, that's just silly.
It seems good. I am interested to see what other cards they use it on. I wonder if we would see an minions with both Reborn and Deathrattle. If not there are still ways to give a Reborn minion Deathrattle .
I think it will be very deck-specific AND depend heavily on the Reborn cards. You'll need to have both to be effective - basically I'm betting it's another Echo that has maybe 2 or 3 cards that see regular play, 1 or 2 that are deck-situational, and the other dozen are never heard from again after launch.
The mummy they revealed probably won't see much play for example because Rush Warrior isn't really a thing. Now if there are Reborn mechs I can see that being good for Mech Warrior/Hunter since it will leave a body to magnetize on after the first death and retain board presence. I could also see it being very good for Res Priest if they get minions that fit into the Res pool effectively. Ditto for Mage if they get heavy targets for Conjurer's Calling. Mainly, however, I'm really hoping for some big neutral/Warlock minions as this keyword seems like exactly what would help push Shuffle Warlock out of meme status. Fel Lord Betrug pulling out Reborn minions who can attack and be retained on-board (more or less) after drawing would definitely help the archetype.
Duo-(or more)-class cards are an ok idea, if you create new cards for it. If you just make a rule to allow any "old" class cards to be picked, you cannot balance that. You just cant. Thus making anything like that very unrealistic.
You make a fair point. Guess I'll just put this on the back burner for now.
On a related note, any idea when the big competition starts? Or at least confirmation that it's a class one?
That does give me an idea though. Every class has 8 non-legendary cards per expansion. Imagine an expansion where all those cards were duo-class with a different class. So every class card is paired with every other class except the legendaries. Could be a fun experiment
They should have a tavern brawl where all cards from all expansions are un-nerfed, then give everyone a full classic collection. just for a week, thats all I want, one week.
Leeroy Jenkins is the first legendary I tend to go for when I'm building a new account. He's in the classic set, so he shouldn't rotate out, plus he's a mainstay in a wide range of low cost, aggro decks. Zilliax is similarly good, although he rotates out next spring.
Having said that, as others have said above, you're better to focus on the deck you want to play, then work out which cards you need for it, rather than focusing on crafting standalone cards
Whizbang the Wonderful and Zayle, Shadow Cloak are great cards if you just want to play a bunch of different decks and explore different playstyles, but they aren't really competitive and aren't the best picks if you're trying to build a collection
^ 0 mana cards are nothing to sneeze at. Consider the effort to which rogues go to get their hands on Wondrous Wands in tempo rogue, a deck where most of the cards drawn will be inexpensive anyway.
Yes, this quest takes more time to pull off, but presumably whatever deck runs it is designed to draw cards & fully exploit the mana discount upon quest completion with big expensive minions.
craft Whizbang the Wonderful or even Zayle, Shadow Cloak for safer version. Whizbang is one of the must-haves for new players. I am not so sure but I am guessing that they will add it to classic set.
It helps you play a lot of decks + learn to play better. Maybe lists are not very efficient for high ranks but all of the decklists are well-builded unlike a new player can build easily.
Compared to Shaman's quest, this looks bad. So much effort to get what? 5-10 random cards for 0 mana? This effect seems to be rather difficult to achieve, but even if you succeed, it's far from being a win condition, because it's too random. It only makes sense if it serves as an additional benefit of drawing cards. Building specifically around this effect is unprofitable.
It’s a cool keyword but I worry how much use it’ll have. Minions with 1 health rarely live long enough to matter. It’s also weird to have another keyword that deals with death, but I guess MTG has had a hundred of those so far so who knows
I think you can probably safely craft brightwing but hold off on Whitemane. A better legendary in her stead would be something like zilliax as he is relevant to every deck in hearthstone right now just such a valuable heal. He may not look flashy but he gets the job done. Although he will be rotating so keep that in mind.
[OOC-91] Is Deck Score Sorting Bugged?
It looks like sorting of personal decklists and general decklists by score aren't fixed. Better have a look of it.
Reborn: good or bad
I dont know how i feel about it yet. It obviously has potential to be very powerful. Also, since they made this ability into a keyword (already exists as deathrattle), this makes me think they want to put some more wordy texts on Reborn minions, which can be dangerous. Will have to wait and see.
A Case for an Unnerfing and Hall of Faming of Warsong Commander
1) Yes, that's true. However we can't predict what kind of cards the devs would implement, if they were to HOF the aforementioned sets. If those happen to be on the same power-level as the recently released ones, new or budget players would have a hard time dealing with an opponent, whose deck is tuned by the more powerful standard sets. You can disregard this counter-argument if you want, since this is just a speculation, but I doubt that the replacements would be as good as the pre-nerfed Basic and Classic sets. Also, the following is just my personal opinion, but I think it would be kinda selfish to let only wild players enjoy playing with iconic class spells or characters (especially if those are big fans of the warcraft RTS games and the MMORPG). People would feel forced to play a specific set, which wouldn't feel hospitable for them. Cuz' let's be honest, wild is not an attractive format for people with a limited collection. It becomes cheaper in the long term and I also love playing there, but I can't ignore the fact, that some have difficulties entering it.
2) and 3) I see where you are going with the "design space limitation" argument. It's true, that the power-level in wild is tremendously higher than in standard and people can do insane things early on. Though I would like to state, that design limiting cards don't come from the Basic or the Classic sets - most of them originate from the expansions. Furthermore, it's not like the devs haven't nerfed wild cards before, in order to balance the meta a bit - like the case with Aviana, Naga Sea Witch, Shadowboxer and I would argue, that Patches the Pirate and Raza the Chained are also part of this category (because back in K&C Reno Priest was a very dominant deck in wild). So the cards or combos you've mentioned above might be changed in the near future. And due to the big variety of cards there, most of the quoted combos can be countered - mech hunter is extremely vulnerable to Devolve, Defile or Brawl, Mass Hysteria, if you manage to survive until turn 5; Voidcaller is silenceable; Quest Mage needs a godlike hand to pull off such turns, which could be compared to the high-roll potential of Aggro Paladin (High Priest Thekal + Molten Giants); SN1P-SN4P requires you to have 3 other combo pieces before going off.
My issue with charge is, that there isn't much counterplay from the opponent aside from playing taunts (which didn't stop Worgen Warrior from seeing a lot of competitive play back in the days). Dakarian made a very good post, where they explained the issues of returning GP Warrior back to competitive hearthstone. And I talked about Warsong Commander's problems outside that deck - even in plain non-combo lists. Correct me if I'm wrong, but warrior didn't have a good aggro package prior to WotOG. The class slowly received a very solid pirate one, which became dominant during MSoG, and now warriors can run a burst-y mid-range mech deck in standard. Point is, Warsong Commander would be auto-included in such lists for the sake of the free face damage (and the potential burst you would get from Frothing Berserker). Speaking of which, isn't this why we see hunters playing Tundra Rhino, into Scavenging Hyena and Unleash the Hounds? Dakarian also stated, that warriors now have more ways to enrage the berserker, so charging a 15- or 20-Attack minion into the opponent's face may not be a rare scenario. And after stating this, I would like to bring another topic- in your opinion would people warmly welcome the unnerfed version of Charge?
which legendary should i choose
Better choice imho. Brightwing can go into pretty much any deck anytime. Not that it is a particularly great card, but since you are low on cards, you will never be sad to put it in your deck for a while, so yeah :)
A Case for an Unnerfing and Hall of Faming of Warsong Commander
There's a lot of valid opinions and ideas on alternative changes to Warsong Commander here, and I very much appreciate that feedback. Thanks!
The power level of cards change greatly, either for better or worse, based on the other cards in the format's pool. Mal'Ganis is a great example of a card that outperforms in Wild despite previously seeing less impressive play in Pre-Standard. In Wild, Voidlord, Voidcaller, and Bloodreaver Gul'dan are often packaged alongside Mal'Ganis, developing board states that are as effective against Big Priest or Quest Mage as they would be against Patron Warrior. Control Warlock/Handlock/Evenlock are all decks that saw considerable success in Wild when the meta allowed for it--just a few months ago, a hand-style Evenlock was perhaps the best deck in the format.
Further on Wild metagame, Quest Mage is currently the top deck in the format, though it often gets referred to as Cyclone Mage, because it's built more around Mana Cyclone than it is around Open the Waygate. The other decks listed are either proven, successful decks that would likely see success against Patron Warrior, or decks likely to be favored against Patron Warrior.
Decks being uninteractive in Wild aren't really an issue. As it stands currently, some of the best decks in Wild include Odd Paladin, Odd Rogue, Murlock Shaman, Even Shaman, Jade Druid, and Aggro Druid. These decks succeed because they're consistently able to apply a ton of pressure to the board in a small amount of time that decks not running sufficient protection or interaction against aggressive board states fold pretty quickly. This implies a few things. First off, it obviously requires other decks to sport a pretty big package of interaction. Big Priest can no longer focus on greedier packages, and must substitute some power for protection.
Duly noted, but actions speak louder than words; the recent, unapologetic inclusions of Archmage Vargoth, Catrina Muerte, Mass Hysteria, Forbidden Words, and Mass Resurrection have all been considerable buffs to Big Priest.
I'm implying that Basic cards shouldn't be extremely powerful, but still be playable. The current form of Warsong Commander offers very little to new players, and will offer less and less as Charge sees less print. If Warsong Commander were to be reverted to its original text, it would likely be too powerful for the Basic set, and need rotation, but as it currently stands, the card appears to be useless now and for the future of Hearthstone. Other Basic cards at least serve some purpose, and can be used as reasonable substitutes by newer players who don't yet have superior alternatives.
I don't mean to waggle my finger and claim Team 5's divergence from previous leadership's ideas. Woo's and Brode's quotes are still experts' opinions.
These are some really interesting points, but slightly confusing, so apologies if I'm breaking them down incorrectly.
It's pretty apparent that cards that limit design space are issues. However, point four refers to how a card's impact on a meta is directly related to the format's card pool. I believe you slightly misconstrued that argument.
I have considered new interactions between Grim Patron and newer cards, but none of the newer cards interact with it stronger than Inner Rage and Whirlwind, because cost efficiency is a very, very important thing. I think visualizing an Odd Patron Warrior is a misunderstanding of how much the deck required Emperor Thaurissan to actually OTK. Odd Patron Warrior also abandons Inner Rage, Armorsmith, Battle Rage, Slam, Execute, Death's Bite/Blood Razor, and Unstable Ghoul. Do you mean to say that the power of what Baku provides is stronger than the synergies that allowed the deck to be successful to begin with? I understand your concern for problematic interactions with Warsong Commander, as others have considered, but few things appear objectively more powerful than what Patron Warrior was doing way back in 2014 and 2015. If you can find any problematic cards from the past 4 years that would be problematic with pre-nerf Warsong Commander, I would definitely like to hear them (keep in mind, strong is not problematic. SN1P-SN4P is a great card that would work really well with it, but less so than with Patron or Berserker).
I don't really understand what you're implying by this, because it feels like a concession that Patron Warrior was the precursor to Hearthstone's shift in ideology, in that you imply decks now require on average higher consideration and deeper thinking than before. I understand the point you're trying to make that the game has become more about fair board control and an accumulation of damage over time, but in a way that had always been the case, and Patron Warrior was king because it efficiently controlled the board, and the most skilled players knew when to throw away potential OTK outs to control the state of the board. I think you absence in Wild could effect your opinion on this; three good examples of relative non-interaction in Wild are Odd Paladin's ability to go wide turn-for-turn considerably faster than other decks and thus force their opponents into initiating trades while taking considerable face damage, Odd Rogue's ability to present high, often incremental stat advantages each turn while having a very effective way of interacting with the board without sacrificing board presence in its Hero Power, which also synergizes with much of its deck, and Big Priest's ability to often just go face. These decks demand their opponents to have an excessive amount of answers, and the current, less powerful version of Patron Warrior has pretty good success against these otherwise seemingly broken, hyper-aggressive decks (I of course mean the aggro decks, not Big Priest).
The final point is actually addressing the very human effect of memory and experience on decision making and rationality (also, the first point had nothing to do with what you implied it did).
I hold the belief that things like Raza Priest and Undertaker Hunter could eventually see unnerfs in the later future when the format allows for it (personally I can't see either unnerf breaking Wild). If by Miracle Rogue you mean the deck that employed a 4-cost Leeroy Jenkins and Shadowstep to deal ~18 damage in one turn, an unnerfing and Hall of Faming of Leeroy would actually do interesting things for Wild while removing a potentially design limiting card from Standard; it would remove him from Odd decks while giving Miracle decks a burst that's not super absurd independently. Force of Nature Savage Roar, while no doubt strong, would likely not be absurd to see now if moved to Wild. And while I will always praise Yogg, comparing Yogg to any other nerf seems a bit silly, since most nerfs discussed in this thread had to do with removing or nerfing a combo, while Yogg was considered independently too good for almost all tournament decks because it would often allow players who otherwise would have lost to simply flip a coin on who would win the game by playing Yogg, and it was regarded as never wrong to play.
That's a very relevant point, I'm sad I missed it!
which legendary should i choose
i crafted brightwing and i have played some games with it. it's a very fun legendary
Would you like to have an "open all packs" option?
I'm willing to open all packs one by one just for that extra enthusiasm that hits when you finally see that orange glow. Wouldn't hate auto-opener as an option but also wouldn't use it.
which legendary should i choose
1 month to new expansion, i would hold any dust for now.
None of the two options you mentioned look like good dust investments right now.
which legendary should i choose
Welcome to Hearthstone and Out of Cards!
Hard to say as both of those are very new card to the game, however between the two i think you would have the most fun with Brightwing as it will give you all kinds of other legendaries at random. Neither of them are very competitive cards at the moment though.
Also, as a new player you may find some useful info in our New Player's Guide if you haven't found it yet :)
C'Thun Corrupts the Jade Waters
We'll know when the card comes out, but my gut feeling says that the quest won't be very good in wild, simply because Brann does the same thing but with no strings attached. Your most powerful battlecries('Wock, C'thun) can't be combined with the Brann HP anyway due to mana constraints, and the fact that you have to play 5 battlecries in order to unlock it means that you won't be able to use the double battlecry until fairly late in the game.
Now sure, there's an argument for running both the quest and Brann, but I think that with C'thun buffs and jades the payoff is too little, too late for the quest. The one card that justifies running it IMO is Swampqueen Hagatha.
Here's some art, make a card! [Legacy Game]
Next:
Must be a spell or a minion that generate spells.
The maximum cost is 3 mana.
Reborn: good or bad
Restless mummy is a more flexible Militia Commander, a card which is in virtually every warrior list out there. The vast majority of warriors run a 5 card rush package of Zilliax, 2 Militia commander 2 Town Crier.
Just because people aren't playing that godawful warrior loa or Akali the Rhino doesn't mean Warriors won't be all over Restless Mummy, that's just silly.
Reborn: good or bad
It seems good. I am interested to see what other cards they use it on. I wonder if we would see an minions with both Reborn and Deathrattle. If not there are still ways to give a Reborn minion Deathrattle .
The Great Dalaran Heist Tuning Update - Bosses Nerfed & Buffed, Player Deck Changes
*cries in spirit of the tiger*
Reborn: good or bad
I think it will be very deck-specific AND depend heavily on the Reborn cards. You'll need to have both to be effective - basically I'm betting it's another Echo that has maybe 2 or 3 cards that see regular play, 1 or 2 that are deck-situational, and the other dozen are never heard from again after launch.
The mummy they revealed probably won't see much play for example because Rush Warrior isn't really a thing. Now if there are Reborn mechs I can see that being good for Mech Warrior/Hunter since it will leave a body to magnetize on after the first death and retain board presence. I could also see it being very good for Res Priest if they get minions that fit into the Res pool effectively. Ditto for Mage if they get heavy targets for Conjurer's Calling. Mainly, however, I'm really hoping for some big neutral/Warlock minions as this keyword seems like exactly what would help push Shuffle Warlock out of meme status. Fel Lord Betrug pulling out Reborn minions who can attack and be retained on-board (more or less) after drawing would definitely help the archetype.
Help with expansion concept.
You make a fair point. Guess I'll just put this on the back burner for now.
On a related note, any idea when the big competition starts? Or at least confirmation that it's a class one?
Help with expansion concept.
I feel like that would be a bit too chaotic.
A Case for an Unnerfing and Hall of Faming of Warsong Commander
They should have a tavern brawl where all cards from all expansions are un-nerfed, then give everyone a full classic collection. just for a week, thats all I want, one week.
which legendary should i choose
Welcome!
Leeroy Jenkins is the first legendary I tend to go for when I'm building a new account. He's in the classic set, so he shouldn't rotate out, plus he's a mainstay in a wide range of low cost, aggro decks. Zilliax is similarly good, although he rotates out next spring.
Having said that, as others have said above, you're better to focus on the deck you want to play, then work out which cards you need for it, rather than focusing on crafting standalone cards
Whizbang the Wonderful and Zayle, Shadow Cloak are great cards if you just want to play a bunch of different decks and explore different playstyles, but they aren't really competitive and aren't the best picks if you're trying to build a collection
New Warlock Spell - Supreme Archaeology
^ 0 mana cards are nothing to sneeze at. Consider the effort to which rogues go to get their hands on Wondrous Wands in tempo rogue, a deck where most of the cards drawn will be inexpensive anyway.
Yes, this quest takes more time to pull off, but presumably whatever deck runs it is designed to draw cards & fully exploit the mana discount upon quest completion with big expensive minions.
which legendary should i choose
craft Whizbang the Wonderful or even Zayle, Shadow Cloak for safer version. Whizbang is one of the must-haves for new players. I am not so sure but I am guessing that they will add it to classic set.
It helps you play a lot of decks + learn to play better. Maybe lists are not very efficient for high ranks but all of the decklists are well-builded unlike a new player can build easily.
New Warlock Spell - Supreme Archaeology
Compared to Shaman's quest, this looks bad. So much effort to get what? 5-10 random cards for 0 mana? This effect seems to be rather difficult to achieve, but even if you succeed, it's far from being a win condition, because it's too random. It only makes sense if it serves as an additional benefit of drawing cards. Building specifically around this effect is unprofitable.
Reborn: good or bad
It’s a cool keyword but I worry how much use it’ll have. Minions with 1 health rarely live long enough to matter. It’s also weird to have another keyword that deals with death, but I guess MTG has had a hundred of those so far so who knows
which legendary should i choose
i mean if you really want those two and you had to choose one i'd say brightwing
which legendary should i choose
I think you can probably safely craft brightwing but hold off on Whitemane. A better legendary in her stead would be something like zilliax as he is relevant to every deck in hearthstone right now just such a valuable heal. He may not look flashy but he gets the job done. Although he will be rotating so keep that in mind.