Considering that Wild will grow always more powerfull, unnerfing old problematic cards may only lead to other terrible situations.
On top of that Warsong Commander reverted back would indeed limit design space for future expansions considering its cheap cost and what a powerfull ability like Charge can do easily.
They should just unnerf and HoF everything. I'm not salty about Big Priest, but you can't deny that it's powerful. Unnerfed anything would be no more powerful than how Big Priest already is and enable people to play some of their favorite decks from the past. A lot of these cards are literally seeing no play since their nerfs, so they serve no purpose sitting around in standard
Uhm... what about new/returning players or people with a limited amount of dust?
I personally think, that it would be a good idea to have two different versions of the Basic/Classic set for both formats - one would include the initial state of the cards, so that people would enjoy playing their old decks again, and the other would be designed accordingly to the standard environment. However I have said it before - some cards (like Warsong Commander, Charge or Starving Buzzard) should be redesigned with caution. I agree with most what OP said and I admire the time and effort they put in writing that post, but Charge is Charge and imho it would limit design space for future cards, which may support Grim Patron Warrior and return it back to its glory days or just create an entirely new (and oppressive) archtype.
I can't deny, that at the moment this may not be the case. I don't see any problematic minions with 3 or less Attack, that would create annoying combos with Warsong Commander (except [Hearthstone Card (Vicious Fledgling) Not Found] maybe). There are some mechs though and warrior is one of the 3 classes, that utilizes magnetize, so this could be considered a counter-argument (even though not a strong one). But outside of combo decks, aggressive lists like Pirate Warrior would consider playing it just because the Commander gives their early-game minions charge.
Mage quest reward Hero Power [...] "cast a random spell".
I would love to make a Casino Mage deck in standard: the cyclone backbone with Scrolls of Wonders (has it rotated already?) and Puzzle-Boxes of Yogg-Saron. I hope you're right lol.
Priest could get a Damage-based hero power since it looks like Priest will become the king of control (and somehow Radiance will be played in such a deck)
Charge should not be given more possibilities of Combo, especially in Wild, where options will grow indefinitely.
You are reasoning mainly in favor of Patron Warrior, and that's ok, but Charge is Charge, and even if you limit its targets, it's dangerous.
At (3) 2/3 it would be too damn efficient for the pre-nerf effect, even the mild one, because it would be available too early. It would probably turn out in Aggro decks more than in Patron Reborn. And Wild has enough Aggro power already.
The only fair compromise i can see with the proposed unnerf is also tuning the mana to higher level, say (5). That way the effect is restricted to later stages of the game, where it belongs. Compare with Tundra Rhino.
They should just unnerf and HoF everything. I'm not salty about Big Priest, but you can't deny that it's powerful. Unnerfed anything would be no more powerful than how Big Priest already is and enable people to play some of their favorite decks from the past. A lot of these cards are literally seeing no play since their nerfs, so they serve no purpose sitting around in standard
I wrote a guide on how to buy from Mexico on HP. I haven't used it this expansion, but has worked for me and most users for previous ones. Hope it helps
Select your old google wallet with your home country. Scroll to the bottom of the settings menu to delete it
Add your card to the Mexico wallet. Make sure to put your real billing address, not a fake one
Open HS on your android or android emulator, such as Nox
Your system may still display the wrong/old price but tap to buy a bundle anyway. Don't worry, you won't actually buy anything until after a few more confirmation screens
HS will connect to google play for payment. It should display the cost for Mexico, but sometimes converted to a different currency. From here, make your purchase normally
If you get the error "your payment cannot be completed", contact Google and your bank to let them know your accounts haven't been commandeered by a Russian hacker
If Google tells you there is a "currency missmatch" and your bank tells you there are no charges, wait to contact Google again later and hope for a more lax representative. There have been several instances where people have run into this situation and resolved it by simply hitting different Google reps
Profit. Also enjoy cheaper prices on everything else in the play store too!
The "A"s of FAQ
No VPN or spoofing required at any time. Using these may actually cause problems
Does not work with PayPal or iOS
Does work with emulators. In fact, if the above guide doesn't work, I recommend doing the steps again from 6 onwards with Nox
Does not work with Argentina because they are region-locked. Mexico and Russia have been confirmed to work, the others are untested. Feel free to try the rest of them
Tested on all servers except China
If you don't have a google wallet account, just skip the delete your profile part
If you already have a google account, making a new one (rather than a new google wallet) has been reported to interfere with the payment process
You can delete your Mexican google wallet after this is done and make yourself your old account back. Personally, I'm keeping it Mexican for the better play store deals though
This card is in the "basic" set. If you left it unnerfed, it would be more powerful than most cards in standard or wild sets which is something the devs have said time and time again they don't want to do. In wild it would make Warrior more toxic than Resurrection priest or "big priest" which gets so much hate it keeps players from touching wild format. I never want to see a card that reads "Give all your minons charge" because it just ruins the game, and makes it super unfun! Especially since it's only 3 mana, like give me a break dude! I like the position that hearthstone is getting away from OTK combo decks, they were fun for the last year and they exist now which is fine as long as their niche'. When this Heroes of Uldum set comes out, the meta will have a flood of board clears making control decks super powerful, and thus most people will play control, and if you've played the game for a long time you would know that control vs control is the most unfun garbage you can play.
I'm going to begin with making the assumption that there are a considerable amount of new players to Hearthstone who won't know what I'm talking about if I don't otherwise explain some HS history, so I'll start there. If you're already familiar with the history of this card, feel free to skip ahead.
Warsong Commander has a pretty significant history, though to a newer player, it probably wouldn't seem like it. That's because the current Warsong Commander is an entirely different card than that which was a crucial part in one of the most iconic decks of Hearthstone's history. In the very early days of Hearthstone, Warsong Commander looked like this:
This was actually after a very early buff to the card, in which it was given +1 Health. The issue with this card at the time was probably as obvious as it is now. This version of Warsong Commander caused games in which players had to be cautious of dealing damage to enemy Warriors, because at a certain point they would be able to play Warsong Commander, Molten Giant, Molten Giant, Youthful Brewmaster, Youthful Brewmaster, Molten Giant, Molten Giant, and often deal well over 30 damage. Keep in mind, this is during a time in the game in which giants were 10/10s and playing Warsong Commander into Boulderfist Ogre or Chillwind Yeti was among one of the strongest things you could do. So, the card was problematic. And it was rightfully nerfed, to this version:
This nerf was seen as extremely oppressive to the card, though all-in-all it was a pretty fair one. It was still obviously combo-able with Frothing Berserker and Raging Worgen to get potential lethals with Whirlwind and Inner Rage type effects, but it wasn't a very successful or popular deck; the burst the deck required just wasn't high enough. In 2014, Blackrock Mountain was released, and decks like Freeze Mage, Handlock, and fringe Dragon decks rose in popularity. Mech Mage, Oil Rogue, Face Hunter, Midrange Druid, Midrange Paladin, and Zoo Warlock were among the top tiered decks. From early on, it was apparent that what would become known as Patron Warrior would rise in popularity: "The fix to Warsong Commander* and the introduction of Emperor [Thaurissan] means we will be seeing a lot more huge Warrior combos using Frothing [Berserker], Raging Worgen, and now Grim Patron." (Tempo Storm Meta Snapshot #12)
* - Warsong Commander previously had an issue in which "token" minions, ie. minions from any source other than their own card, wouldn't gain Charge. Additionally, minions with 3-or-less Attack that gained additional Attack (giving them 4 or more) from their Battlecry would not gain Charge, circumventing how effect triggers are supposed to stack.
The additions of Grim Patron and Emperor Thaurissan gave tremendous support to the previously fringe Combo Warrior archetype, and the meta was well suited for Patron Warrior to take off. Decks running small, persistent minions like Haunted Creeper were regularly top tier, and Patron Warrior proved efficient at dealing with small-stats-but-very-wide boards, and these board states grew the power level of eventual Patron combo turns. Additionally, Patrons were impressively stable at dealing with the most powerful minion in the history of the game at that time, Dr. Boom, and nothing stopped Patron Warrior from just also running Boom. If you can sometimes beat 'em, who says you still can't play 'em? Patron Warrior became the anti-aggro police deck on ladder, effectively countering what most of all decks were doing.
Following Blackrock Mountain was The Grand Tournament, which did three major things worth noting. First, it offered Patron Warrior almost nothing (Bash would see play in Control Warrior, and Alexstrasza's Champion would see play in Dragon Warrior). However, all Warriors got one of the most crucial cards in the history of Warrior deckbuilding: Justicar Trueheart, who would immediately see play in most slower Warrior decks, inevitably being played in certain Patron builds slightly longer down the road. The second thing TGT did was introduce Mysterious Challenger, Murloc Knight, and Competitive Spirit. This gave the already solid Midrange Paladin the new name Secret Paladin, and it quickly became one of the best decks in the game. Lastly, it gave legs to the big breakout deck of the set, Dragon Priest, with the cards [Hearthstone Card (Wymrest Agent) Not Found], Twilight Guardian, and Chillmaw. However, these decks had no real way of stopping Patron Warrior in the hands of a knowledgeable player, because their few answers weren't enough to outnumber Warrior's removal package, and Patron remained king for several months.
Then, in October of 2015, Warsong Commander was nerfed a final time, and in the following months, it sunk further and further in popularity, until it was essentially a joke. The card read as it now does:
The card was regarded to have such a significant fall from grace that it spawned a lot of both grief and jokes from the community. The card became effectively useless and went from one of the most played cards in the game to one of the least. Only one month later, League of Explorers was released, and became regarded by many as one of the best Hearthstone sets ever. It gave support to the already solid Aggro Shaman, created an entirely new combo deck in Murloc Paladin, gave Priest great control tools in Entomb and Excavated Evil, blew people away with the incredibly efficient Tomb Pillager, birthed entire new archetypes with Sir Finley Mrrgglton, Brann Bronzebeard, Elise Starseeker, and Reno Jackson, and gave Warriors Cursed Blade, which was regarded mostly as a joke. Regardless, everyone was pretty happy with the set, as aggro, control, and combo decks all had support. And furthermore, the following set, Whispers of the Old Gods, completely transformed the game, both by introducing a massive number of archetypes, and by introducing the Wild/Standard formats. This upset a number of Patron players who thought the Wild format would have made a good home for Patron Warrior--others, however, believed Patron Warrior would simply dominate the format forever, and in hindsight there's certainly validity to both of those opinions at the time.
The Discussion in 2019
There are four major points I'd like to present as the primary reasons for which Warsong Commander should be changed yet again. Here's a little more backstory: in early 2017, massive issues with the Classic set were recognized when a number of cards from the set were frequent offenders in powerful decks (or regarded as improper to have in Standard). Ten cards (Conceal, Ice Lance, Power Overwhelming, Azure Drake, Captain's Parrot, Gelbin Mekkatorque, Elite Tauren Chieftain, Old Murk-Eye, Ragnaros the Firelord, and Sylvanas Windrunner) were removed from the Classic set and put into a new, Wild-only set, known as Hall of Fame. A year later, three additional cards (Coldlight Oracle, Ice Block, and Molten Giant) were moved from Classic to Hall of Fame. Molten Giant marked the first card to be unnerfed during this transition, with its cost dropping from a nerfed 25 back down to a pre-nerf 20. In 2019, an additional three cards from the Classic set were moved to the Hall of Fame (Naturalize, Divine Favor, and Doomguard). Again in 2019, an additional two cards were moved from an eternal set to Hall of Fame, however, this time it was from the Basic set (Mind Blast and Vanish). A number of cards were added to Basic and Classic to replace some holes in the set caused by these changes.
1. The first point is, considering that now both a) cards have been unnerfed when being moved from an eternal set to Hall of Fame and b) cards from the Basic set have been moved to Hall of Fame, there's no practical reason restricting Blizzard from making the decision of reverting Warsong Commander to it's text "Whenever you summon a minion with 3 or less Attack, give it Charge." and moving it from Basic to Hall of Fame. In other words, it is not a decision that would go against their previous conduct.
2. The second point is that the card in its most previous iteration would not go against the design team's philosophy of interaction in the Wild format. Hearthstone is a game with specific types of interaction, which gives a specific perception on how interactive a deck, card, combo, mechanic, or interaction can be. To efficiently interact, you need specific ways of preemptively resisting or negating what your opponent will do, in the context of dealing with combo (otherwise, interaction can be as simple as using a spell to remove an in-play creature, but in this instance we're discussing preventing OTKs). Keeping Patron Warrior's history in mind, we can make note of a couple of things: a) Warsong Commander was nerfed before the introduction of the Wild format, b) cards designed explicitly for Wild have so far not been made (at least not as a part of Standard sets), c) Patron Warrior typically requires Emperor Thaurissan to function optimally, which is mostly considered very slow for combos in Wild, and d) cards have been made since the nerfing of Warsong Commander that either preemptively interact with or simply outpace Patron Warrior. Existing cards that can collectively hinder the power of Patron Warrior include Ice Block, Evasion, Explosive Runes, Potion of Polymorph, Reno Jackson, Ironwood Golem, Thing from Below, Sludge Belcher, Twilight Guardian, Rotten Applebaum, Zilliax, Tar CreeperObsidian Statue (and several Big Priest cards), Voidlord, Mal'Ganis, Bloodreaver Gul'dan, Molten Giant, Mountain Giant, Arcane Giant, Defender of Argus, Loatheb, Dirty Rat, Hecklebot, Chillmaw, Tunnel Blaster, Twin Emperor Vek'lor, and Soggoth the Slitherer, and decks that would likely do well or average against Patron Warrior include Quest Mage, Big Priest, Handlock/Control Warlock, Control/Odd Warrior, Control Paladin, Odd Rogue, Taunt Druid, and certain Shudderwock Shaman builds. It's also worth noting that in regards to interactivity, many have argued that certain Wild decks have little options in regards to effective interaction, and while these complaints have been officially addressed, no solutions have so far been made, and considerable buffs and options have been given to those decks since (chiefly, I'm talking about Big Priest).
3. The third point is actually a challenge to the design team's Hall of Fame philosophy and the broader concept of the Wild format. In 2017, former Lead Producer Yong Woo spoke about their plans for Hall of Fame, stating "For us, the most important aspect of [the] Standard format is diversity. If a metagame largely consists of decks with similar cores and ideas, we'll consider making changes." (Woo's interview with invenglobal). I want to challenge that statement in an honestly sneaky way, but I believe it to be relevant. The Basic and Classic sets seem to exist with two ideas in mind that were to an extent relevant at inception and especially relevant now: to introduce a pool of cards to new players that offer some level of significance to basic deckbuilding without being abhorrently quintessential to certain decks or strategies, and to offer experienced players some deckbuilding options when theoretically superior options aren't available at the time or when there is a significant importance from what that card offers without being build-around cards themselves (Novice Engineer and Fireball being two examples; Mind Blast and Vanish being not (thus the Hall of Fame rotation)). Out of the 133 cards currently in the Basic set, many are playable and relevant both in the hands of new players and veterans, and can often be bought up in discussion as potential inclusions in competitive decks. What statistically unplayable/underplayed cards in the Basic set means is that those cards are likely inherently unusable in decks for any player regardless of their level of skill or experience. When options in the Basic set are compromised by unplayable/unused cards, those who feel it the most are the newer players. Moving back to actual design philosophy, here's another extract from that same interview with Yong Woo. When asked what to expect for the Wild format, Woo says, "We think of the Wild format as a place to play with all the cards that ever have been or will be a part of Hearthstone, so we want to support the format accordingly." This obviously should not be taken at strictly face value, because when a card is nerfed, fixed, or tweaked, it is technically no longer that original card. But what if a card's name, cost, stats, and art remain the same, but the effect changes entirely? When comparing the current and previous iterations of Warsong Commander, they're all very different, but it's quite obvious that the most previous iteration is a direct nerf from the iteration before it. However, the current iteration of Warsong Commander isn't functionally similar to the most previous iteration in any way other than the stats, and that the word Charge appears on the card. It's an entirely different card, and the previous version, a nerf from it's even earlier version, is no longer a usable card in the game, despite being a considerable part of the game's history.
4. The fourth point is an address to part of the reason why Warsong Commander/Patron Warrior was nerfed in the first place, and why a lot of cards historically got nerfed in Hearthstone: they were too tournament-meta warping, and in part with that, cards that eventually required nerfs typically limited design space in some way. Steamer TrumpHS and former Hearthstone Game Director Ben Brode cover it best. In Wild, Patron Warrior with the inclusion of Warsong Commander has enough strong counters against it that considerable tournament meta warping is unlikely aside from being great tech against decks like Odd Paladin and Murloc Shaman. In Wild, an eternal format, the issue of cards limiting design space is far less of an issue considering that the card pool in Wild is considerably larger with a greater number cards that counteract the impacts of otherwise problematic cards that may cause issues in formats that have smaller card pools, like Standard. Often times, card game designers must ban cards for the health of their game, but later find the opportunities to unban those cards once more cards have been added to the format in question. In the case of Hearthstone, bans and unbans don't exist outside of the Odd/Even effective-bans in Standard, so an unnerfing of an older card isn't something to shy away from.
5. The fifth point may be a bit ridiculous to some, but it's absolutely worth mentioning. Patron Warrior had a considerable difference in win rate based on the player's skill with the deck. Many players had remarkably low win rates with the deck, while others dominated the ladder. The deck was likely a difficult one to nerf because it heavily rewarded skilled players, rather than rewarding players for just playing it, like many decks get accused of having the issue of.
6. The final point I'd like to present has less to do with Hearthstone, and more to do with games that see updates and changes over long periods of time. I want to refer to an example from another card game, Magic: the Gathering, and a specific story from it, that I'll call The Boogeyman. I'd like you to take a break from reading, if you want, and watch a video--don't worry, you don't need to know anything about the game to enjoy the video. If you're familiar with the legend of Jace, the Mind Sculptor, you're fine, but I still recommend that video. Jace, the Mind Sculptor has a very interesting story. In Standard, a format near-identical to Hearthstone's, Jace, the Mind Sculptor dominated on all levels, and the decks playing it were consistently winning--it was metawarping. In the right hands, it often felt unbeatable, and at a point the format became significantly warped around the card that mirror matches were decided and won by the deck that specifically planned ahead to win the mirror match. It didn't win with combo, but when the pieces moved it often felt like one. One year after the release of Jace, the Mind Sculptor and its dominance over Standard, the new eternal format Modern was created, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor was immediately banned from being played in Modern. For seven years it was remembered by Modern players as overpowered, infuriating, and scary, until it was unbanned in February of 2018. People lost their minds, but as it turned out, Jace underperformed after his debut into the format. The card is played, and in some of the best decks in the format, but it seemed the legacy had outhyped the legend. A big consideration of how Warsong Commander would impact Wild is the meta; it historically had really great success against decks flooding the board with small bodies, and that isn't what's currently dominating the ladder. People are playing control, and combo, and decks oozing with value. The dominance of Jace, the Mind Sculptor over the pool of cards in MTG's Standard at the time and the relative unimpressive performance in MTG's Modern seems comparable to the potential impact Warsong Commander would have over Hearthstone's Wild when remembering only its Standard.
In closing, I quite obviously believe in a return of pre-nerf Warsong Commander to exclusively Wild, but I am very curious what others think about this topic.
Priest Quest: " play 7 cards from your opponents deck, reward: 'hero power name', Passive hero power; Your healing effects damages instead"
Warrior Quest "kill 15 minions in your turns, Reward: 'hero power name', Hero Power: Deal 1 damage to a minion and give it 2 attack"
Rogue Quest"Trigger 8 deathrattles of your cards, Reward: 'hero power name', Hero Power: Trigger a friendly deathrattle"
Paladin Quest: " Lose 10 Divine shields on your minions Reward: 'hero power name' Hero Power: Give a friendly minion Divine Shield"
Mage Quest: " Play 10 different spells, Reward: 'hero power name', Passive Hero Power: Spell Damage +3"
Hunter Quest: " Play Summon 10 beasts, Reward: 'hero Power name' Passive Hero Power: Your beasts have rush or Summon a Beast that died this game. (even have a name; Rescue pet)"
I do it virtually every expansion. Just saved 18% which is pretty nice (not a sponsor btw lol). In my experience the only things that you cant buy are blizzard store exclusives - wild packs, wild adventures etc. Edit - responding to Lycaon, obviously I didn't click reply like I thought I did.
Rogue is gonna get a bad quest. After caverns below they can’t give rogue a halfway decent one sadly.
wish they would bring stealth back to rogue in some way.
Would like a play X combo cards hero power becomes give a minion stealth but I doubt that would be grea
It's funny because this is exactly what people said about The Caverns Below before Un'Goro was launched. I remember one person even said that if Crystal Core was a collectable card, it still wouldn't see play. Of course, this is obviously horribly wrong.
After Dr. Boom, Mysterious Challenger, The Caverns Below, Prince Keleseth, Possessed Lackey, Genn and Baku, you learn that you can't trust anyone's opinions of cards pre-release. Not even your own. Cards look "interesting" or "fun to try out", but we never know if they're actually good or bad until release.
Hunter - Most likely something to do with mechs since they have a lot of those synergies going on at the moment.
Rogue - Could have something related to the lackeys, they get the most utilization out of them (IMO) and if I'm remembering correctly were getting more lackeys with each expansion.
Paladin - Since Paladin was so prevalent in 2018 it might get a slightly weaker/more difficult quest so other classes canstill shine.
Mage - Umm, maybe something with summoning minions from spells? That kind of seems to fit their jive right now.
Priest - Based on looking at current standard cards, a quest idea I can see right away would be "Summon X minions trhat didn't start in your deck." (Big Priest buff lol)
Warrior - Fuckin' bombs or armor or something I don't know with Warrior anymore.
As for any of the rewards, I just can't think of any.
I took the liberty of going through all the Battlecry cards in Standard right now, and there really isn't anything that warrants a buildaround over this. Sure, you can pay 7 mana to get 11/11 in stats with Former champ, you can double up on Hagatha's battlecry on Turn 10, Fire Elemental/Lifedrinker aren't bad either, but this really can't compete with what's in standard right now.
But keep an eye on this, 100%. Doubling up on Battlecries is a very powerful effect, but there's really nothing that exciting you can do with it yet... but it's hard to imagine this won't be good at some point during it's life in Standard. For all we know, the support is coming this expac.
I didn't include Leeroy in this list because Grom fulfills more or less the same role and there's a lot of better cards to run than Leeroy (Warpath and Wargear). It makes sense to run Leeroy in yours because your list is a lot more aggressive and less mech-oriented than mine. Definitely some interesting stuff to think about though.
Seems like Sul'thraze would be really good in your list over something like Gorehowl or Argent Commander!
First off, cool deck. I'd always wanted to play Control Paladin back when it was more popular, but I didn't have a lot of the cards at that point (and still don't at least for some of the cards that were in those versions of the deck.). I'm only missing Countess Ashmore and Faceless Manipulator, so I might try out a modified version of the deck. I am curious though where you were playing the deck.
A Case for an Unnerfing and Hall of Faming of Warsong Commander
No thanks.
A Case for an Unnerfing and Hall of Faming of Warsong Commander
Considering that Wild will grow always more powerfull, unnerfing old problematic cards may only lead to other terrible situations.
On top of that Warsong Commander reverted back would indeed limit design space for future expansions considering its cheap cost and what a powerfull ability like Charge can do easily.
A Case for an Unnerfing and Hall of Faming of Warsong Commander
Uhm... what about new/returning players or people with a limited amount of dust?
I personally think, that it would be a good idea to have two different versions of the Basic/Classic set for both formats - one would include the initial state of the cards, so that people would enjoy playing their old decks again, and the other would be designed accordingly to the standard environment. However I have said it before - some cards (like Warsong Commander, Charge or Starving Buzzard) should be redesigned with caution. I agree with most what OP said and I admire the time and effort they put in writing that post, but Charge is Charge and imho it would limit design space for future cards, which may support Grim Patron Warrior and return it back to its glory days or just create an entirely new (and oppressive) archtype.
I can't deny, that at the moment this may not be the case. I don't see any problematic minions with 3 or less Attack, that would create annoying combos with Warsong Commander (except [Hearthstone Card (Vicious Fledgling) Not Found] maybe). There are some mechs though and warrior is one of the 3 classes, that utilizes magnetize, so this could be considered a counter-argument (even though not a strong one). But outside of combo decks, aggressive lists like Pirate Warrior would consider playing it just because the Commander gives their early-game minions charge.
https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/minion?display=3&filter-attack-op=5&filter-attack-val=3&filter-class=1025&filter-premium=1
/I prefer to use a hearthpwn link, because the list is visually better. Sorry, mods./
[Game] Name another card that has the same...
Arcane Intellect
Basic card draw.
Saviors of Uldum Predictions and Expactations
I would love to make a Casino Mage deck in standard: the cyclone backbone with Scrolls of Wonders (has it rotated already?) and Puzzle-Boxes of Yogg-Saron. I hope you're right lol.
Priest could get a Damage-based hero power since it looks like Priest will become the king of control (and somehow Radiance will be played in such a deck)
Quest Trading - Play A Friend!
Grobiunfug#2697
Eu
Trade only you go first
Done
PapaJason's Mech Paladin
no silence?
A Case for an Unnerfing and Hall of Faming of Warsong Commander
Intriguing read, thank you! I really would like to see the deck in action once.
A Case for an Unnerfing and Hall of Faming of Warsong Commander
Warsong Commander is good just where it is.
A Case for an Unnerfing and Hall of Faming of Warsong Commander
Charge should not be given more possibilities of Combo, especially in Wild, where options will grow indefinitely.
You are reasoning mainly in favor of Patron Warrior, and that's ok, but Charge is Charge, and even if you limit its targets, it's dangerous.
At (3) 2/3 it would be too damn efficient for the pre-nerf effect, even the mild one, because it would be available too early. It would probably turn out in Aggro decks more than in Patron Reborn. And Wild has enough Aggro power already.
The only fair compromise i can see with the proposed unnerf is also tuning the mana to higher level, say (5). That way the effect is restricted to later stages of the game, where it belongs. Compare with Tundra Rhino.
A Case for an Unnerfing and Hall of Faming of Warsong Commander
They should just unnerf and HoF everything. I'm not salty about Big Priest, but you can't deny that it's powerful. Unnerfed anything would be no more powerful than how Big Priest already is and enable people to play some of their favorite decks from the past. A lot of these cards are literally seeing no play since their nerfs, so they serve no purpose sitting around in standard
Quest Trading - Play A Friend!
Battletag: wampir#2579
Region: EU
Trade only?: Yes, you go first
How to buy the pre-order (or anything) cheaper within Blizzard Shop without any problems/illegal actions?
I wrote a guide on how to buy from Mexico on HP. I haven't used it this expansion, but has worked for me and most users for previous ones. Hope it helps
The "A"s of FAQ
A Case for an Unnerfing and Hall of Faming of Warsong Commander
This card is in the "basic" set. If you left it unnerfed, it would be more powerful than most cards in standard or wild sets which is something the devs have said time and time again they don't want to do. In wild it would make Warrior more toxic than Resurrection priest or "big priest" which gets so much hate it keeps players from touching wild format. I never want to see a card that reads "Give all your minons charge" because it just ruins the game, and makes it super unfun! Especially since it's only 3 mana, like give me a break dude! I like the position that hearthstone is getting away from OTK combo decks, they were fun for the last year and they exist now which is fine as long as their niche'. When this Heroes of Uldum set comes out, the meta will have a flood of board clears making control decks super powerful, and thus most people will play control, and if you've played the game for a long time you would know that control vs control is the most unfun garbage you can play.
/thread
A Case for an Unnerfing and Hall of Faming of Warsong Commander
Gotta Agree with most points here. Also the team is moving away from charge minions, so warsong commander wont get future support for standar.
Let's make Hybrid Hunter Great Again!
I second what Almaniarra said. Secrets and Zul'jin are too slow in the current wild format. Go hard (mid-range) or go home.
For what it's worth: This list has been dubbed tier 2 in vS' latest wild report: [URL]//www.vicioussyndicate.com/midrange-hunter-6/[/URL]
I'd just go with that one if I were you. It's more than legend viable.
A Case for an Unnerfing and Hall of Faming of Warsong Commander
I'm going to begin with making the assumption that there are a considerable amount of new players to Hearthstone who won't know what I'm talking about if I don't otherwise explain some HS history, so I'll start there. If you're already familiar with the history of this card, feel free to skip ahead.
Warsong Commander has a pretty significant history, though to a newer player, it probably wouldn't seem like it. That's because the current Warsong Commander is an entirely different card than that which was a crucial part in one of the most iconic decks of Hearthstone's history. In the very early days of Hearthstone, Warsong Commander looked like this:
This was actually after a very early buff to the card, in which it was given +1 Health. The issue with this card at the time was probably as obvious as it is now. This version of Warsong Commander caused games in which players had to be cautious of dealing damage to enemy Warriors, because at a certain point they would be able to play Warsong Commander, Molten Giant, Molten Giant, Youthful Brewmaster, Youthful Brewmaster, Molten Giant, Molten Giant, and often deal well over 30 damage. Keep in mind, this is during a time in the game in which giants were 10/10s and playing Warsong Commander into Boulderfist Ogre or Chillwind Yeti was among one of the strongest things you could do. So, the card was problematic. And it was rightfully nerfed, to this version:
This nerf was seen as extremely oppressive to the card, though all-in-all it was a pretty fair one. It was still obviously combo-able with Frothing Berserker and Raging Worgen to get potential lethals with Whirlwind and Inner Rage type effects, but it wasn't a very successful or popular deck; the burst the deck required just wasn't high enough. In 2014, Blackrock Mountain was released, and decks like Freeze Mage, Handlock, and fringe Dragon decks rose in popularity. Mech Mage, Oil Rogue, Face Hunter, Midrange Druid, Midrange Paladin, and Zoo Warlock were among the top tiered decks. From early on, it was apparent that what would become known as Patron Warrior would rise in popularity: "The fix to Warsong Commander* and the introduction of Emperor [Thaurissan] means we will be seeing a lot more huge Warrior combos using Frothing [Berserker], Raging Worgen, and now Grim Patron." (Tempo Storm Meta Snapshot #12)
* - Warsong Commander previously had an issue in which "token" minions, ie. minions from any source other than their own card, wouldn't gain Charge. Additionally, minions with 3-or-less Attack that gained additional Attack (giving them 4 or more) from their Battlecry would not gain Charge, circumventing how effect triggers are supposed to stack.
The additions of Grim Patron and Emperor Thaurissan gave tremendous support to the previously fringe Combo Warrior archetype, and the meta was well suited for Patron Warrior to take off. Decks running small, persistent minions like Haunted Creeper were regularly top tier, and Patron Warrior proved efficient at dealing with small-stats-but-very-wide boards, and these board states grew the power level of eventual Patron combo turns. Additionally, Patrons were impressively stable at dealing with the most powerful minion in the history of the game at that time, Dr. Boom, and nothing stopped Patron Warrior from just also running Boom. If you can sometimes beat 'em, who says you still can't play 'em? Patron Warrior became the anti-aggro police deck on ladder, effectively countering what most of all decks were doing.
Following Blackrock Mountain was The Grand Tournament, which did three major things worth noting. First, it offered Patron Warrior almost nothing (Bash would see play in Control Warrior, and Alexstrasza's Champion would see play in Dragon Warrior). However, all Warriors got one of the most crucial cards in the history of Warrior deckbuilding: Justicar Trueheart, who would immediately see play in most slower Warrior decks, inevitably being played in certain Patron builds slightly longer down the road. The second thing TGT did was introduce Mysterious Challenger, Murloc Knight, and Competitive Spirit. This gave the already solid Midrange Paladin the new name Secret Paladin, and it quickly became one of the best decks in the game. Lastly, it gave legs to the big breakout deck of the set, Dragon Priest, with the cards [Hearthstone Card (Wymrest Agent) Not Found], Twilight Guardian, and Chillmaw. However, these decks had no real way of stopping Patron Warrior in the hands of a knowledgeable player, because their few answers weren't enough to outnumber Warrior's removal package, and Patron remained king for several months.
Then, in October of 2015, Warsong Commander was nerfed a final time, and in the following months, it sunk further and further in popularity, until it was essentially a joke. The card read as it now does:
The card was regarded to have such a significant fall from grace that it spawned a lot of both grief and jokes from the community. The card became effectively useless and went from one of the most played cards in the game to one of the least. Only one month later, League of Explorers was released, and became regarded by many as one of the best Hearthstone sets ever. It gave support to the already solid Aggro Shaman, created an entirely new combo deck in Murloc Paladin, gave Priest great control tools in Entomb and Excavated Evil, blew people away with the incredibly efficient Tomb Pillager, birthed entire new archetypes with Sir Finley Mrrgglton, Brann Bronzebeard, Elise Starseeker, and Reno Jackson, and gave Warriors Cursed Blade, which was regarded mostly as a joke. Regardless, everyone was pretty happy with the set, as aggro, control, and combo decks all had support. And furthermore, the following set, Whispers of the Old Gods, completely transformed the game, both by introducing a massive number of archetypes, and by introducing the Wild/Standard formats. This upset a number of Patron players who thought the Wild format would have made a good home for Patron Warrior--others, however, believed Patron Warrior would simply dominate the format forever, and in hindsight there's certainly validity to both of those opinions at the time.
The Discussion in 2019
There are four major points I'd like to present as the primary reasons for which Warsong Commander should be changed yet again. Here's a little more backstory: in early 2017, massive issues with the Classic set were recognized when a number of cards from the set were frequent offenders in powerful decks (or regarded as improper to have in Standard). Ten cards (Conceal, Ice Lance, Power Overwhelming, Azure Drake, Captain's Parrot, Gelbin Mekkatorque, Elite Tauren Chieftain, Old Murk-Eye, Ragnaros the Firelord, and Sylvanas Windrunner) were removed from the Classic set and put into a new, Wild-only set, known as Hall of Fame. A year later, three additional cards (Coldlight Oracle, Ice Block, and Molten Giant) were moved from Classic to Hall of Fame. Molten Giant marked the first card to be unnerfed during this transition, with its cost dropping from a nerfed 25 back down to a pre-nerf 20. In 2019, an additional three cards from the Classic set were moved to the Hall of Fame (Naturalize, Divine Favor, and Doomguard). Again in 2019, an additional two cards were moved from an eternal set to Hall of Fame, however, this time it was from the Basic set (Mind Blast and Vanish). A number of cards were added to Basic and Classic to replace some holes in the set caused by these changes.
1. The first point is, considering that now both a) cards have been unnerfed when being moved from an eternal set to Hall of Fame and b) cards from the Basic set have been moved to Hall of Fame, there's no practical reason restricting Blizzard from making the decision of reverting Warsong Commander to it's text "Whenever you summon a minion with 3 or less Attack, give it Charge." and moving it from Basic to Hall of Fame. In other words, it is not a decision that would go against their previous conduct.
2. The second point is that the card in its most previous iteration would not go against the design team's philosophy of interaction in the Wild format. Hearthstone is a game with specific types of interaction, which gives a specific perception on how interactive a deck, card, combo, mechanic, or interaction can be. To efficiently interact, you need specific ways of preemptively resisting or negating what your opponent will do, in the context of dealing with combo (otherwise, interaction can be as simple as using a spell to remove an in-play creature, but in this instance we're discussing preventing OTKs). Keeping Patron Warrior's history in mind, we can make note of a couple of things: a) Warsong Commander was nerfed before the introduction of the Wild format, b) cards designed explicitly for Wild have so far not been made (at least not as a part of Standard sets), c) Patron Warrior typically requires Emperor Thaurissan to function optimally, which is mostly considered very slow for combos in Wild, and d) cards have been made since the nerfing of Warsong Commander that either preemptively interact with or simply outpace Patron Warrior. Existing cards that can collectively hinder the power of Patron Warrior include Ice Block, Evasion, Explosive Runes, Potion of Polymorph, Reno Jackson, Ironwood Golem, Thing from Below, Sludge Belcher, Twilight Guardian, Rotten Applebaum, Zilliax, Tar Creeper Obsidian Statue (and several Big Priest cards), Voidlord, Mal'Ganis, Bloodreaver Gul'dan, Molten Giant, Mountain Giant, Arcane Giant, Defender of Argus, Loatheb, Dirty Rat, Hecklebot, Chillmaw, Tunnel Blaster, Twin Emperor Vek'lor, and Soggoth the Slitherer, and decks that would likely do well or average against Patron Warrior include Quest Mage, Big Priest, Handlock/Control Warlock, Control/Odd Warrior, Control Paladin, Odd Rogue, Taunt Druid, and certain Shudderwock Shaman builds. It's also worth noting that in regards to interactivity, many have argued that certain Wild decks have little options in regards to effective interaction, and while these complaints have been officially addressed, no solutions have so far been made, and considerable buffs and options have been given to those decks since (chiefly, I'm talking about Big Priest).
3. The third point is actually a challenge to the design team's Hall of Fame philosophy and the broader concept of the Wild format. In 2017, former Lead Producer Yong Woo spoke about their plans for Hall of Fame, stating "For us, the most important aspect of [the] Standard format is diversity. If a metagame largely consists of decks with similar cores and ideas, we'll consider making changes." (Woo's interview with invenglobal). I want to challenge that statement in an honestly sneaky way, but I believe it to be relevant. The Basic and Classic sets seem to exist with two ideas in mind that were to an extent relevant at inception and especially relevant now: to introduce a pool of cards to new players that offer some level of significance to basic deckbuilding without being abhorrently quintessential to certain decks or strategies, and to offer experienced players some deckbuilding options when theoretically superior options aren't available at the time or when there is a significant importance from what that card offers without being build-around cards themselves (Novice Engineer and Fireball being two examples; Mind Blast and Vanish being not (thus the Hall of Fame rotation)). Out of the 133 cards currently in the Basic set, many are playable and relevant both in the hands of new players and veterans, and can often be bought up in discussion as potential inclusions in competitive decks. What statistically unplayable/underplayed cards in the Basic set means is that those cards are likely inherently unusable in decks for any player regardless of their level of skill or experience. When options in the Basic set are compromised by unplayable/unused cards, those who feel it the most are the newer players. Moving back to actual design philosophy, here's another extract from that same interview with Yong Woo. When asked what to expect for the Wild format, Woo says, "We think of the Wild format as a place to play with all the cards that ever have been or will be a part of Hearthstone, so we want to support the format accordingly." This obviously should not be taken at strictly face value, because when a card is nerfed, fixed, or tweaked, it is technically no longer that original card. But what if a card's name, cost, stats, and art remain the same, but the effect changes entirely? When comparing the current and previous iterations of Warsong Commander, they're all very different, but it's quite obvious that the most previous iteration is a direct nerf from the iteration before it. However, the current iteration of Warsong Commander isn't functionally similar to the most previous iteration in any way other than the stats, and that the word Charge appears on the card. It's an entirely different card, and the previous version, a nerf from it's even earlier version, is no longer a usable card in the game, despite being a considerable part of the game's history.
4. The fourth point is an address to part of the reason why Warsong Commander/Patron Warrior was nerfed in the first place, and why a lot of cards historically got nerfed in Hearthstone: they were too tournament-meta warping, and in part with that, cards that eventually required nerfs typically limited design space in some way. Steamer TrumpHS and former Hearthstone Game Director Ben Brode cover it best. In Wild, Patron Warrior with the inclusion of Warsong Commander has enough strong counters against it that considerable tournament meta warping is unlikely aside from being great tech against decks like Odd Paladin and Murloc Shaman. In Wild, an eternal format, the issue of cards limiting design space is far less of an issue considering that the card pool in Wild is considerably larger with a greater number cards that counteract the impacts of otherwise problematic cards that may cause issues in formats that have smaller card pools, like Standard. Often times, card game designers must ban cards for the health of their game, but later find the opportunities to unban those cards once more cards have been added to the format in question. In the case of Hearthstone, bans and unbans don't exist outside of the Odd/Even effective-bans in Standard, so an unnerfing of an older card isn't something to shy away from.
5. The fifth point may be a bit ridiculous to some, but it's absolutely worth mentioning. Patron Warrior had a considerable difference in win rate based on the player's skill with the deck. Many players had remarkably low win rates with the deck, while others dominated the ladder. The deck was likely a difficult one to nerf because it heavily rewarded skilled players, rather than rewarding players for just playing it, like many decks get accused of having the issue of.
6. The final point I'd like to present has less to do with Hearthstone, and more to do with games that see updates and changes over long periods of time. I want to refer to an example from another card game, Magic: the Gathering, and a specific story from it, that I'll call The Boogeyman. I'd like you to take a break from reading, if you want, and watch a video--don't worry, you don't need to know anything about the game to enjoy the video. If you're familiar with the legend of Jace, the Mind Sculptor, you're fine, but I still recommend that video. Jace, the Mind Sculptor has a very interesting story. In Standard, a format near-identical to Hearthstone's, Jace, the Mind Sculptor dominated on all levels, and the decks playing it were consistently winning--it was metawarping. In the right hands, it often felt unbeatable, and at a point the format became significantly warped around the card that mirror matches were decided and won by the deck that specifically planned ahead to win the mirror match. It didn't win with combo, but when the pieces moved it often felt like one. One year after the release of Jace, the Mind Sculptor and its dominance over Standard, the new eternal format Modern was created, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor was immediately banned from being played in Modern. For seven years it was remembered by Modern players as overpowered, infuriating, and scary, until it was unbanned in February of 2018. People lost their minds, but as it turned out, Jace underperformed after his debut into the format. The card is played, and in some of the best decks in the format, but it seemed the legacy had outhyped the legend. A big consideration of how Warsong Commander would impact Wild is the meta; it historically had really great success against decks flooding the board with small bodies, and that isn't what's currently dominating the ladder. People are playing control, and combo, and decks oozing with value. The dominance of Jace, the Mind Sculptor over the pool of cards in MTG's Standard at the time and the relative unimpressive performance in MTG's Modern seems comparable to the potential impact Warsong Commander would have over Hearthstone's Wild when remembering only its Standard.
In closing, I quite obviously believe in a return of pre-nerf Warsong Commander to exclusively Wild, but I am very curious what others think about this topic.
Some Nostalgia
Whats your guess for the other QUESTS in SOU?
Priest Quest: " play 7 cards from your opponents deck, reward: 'hero power name', Passive hero power; Your healing effects damages instead"
Warrior Quest "kill 15 minions in your turns, Reward: 'hero power name', Hero Power: Deal 1 damage to a minion and give it 2 attack"
Rogue Quest "Trigger 8 deathrattles of your cards, Reward: 'hero power name', Hero Power: Trigger a friendly deathrattle"
Paladin Quest: " Lose 10 Divine shields on your minions Reward: 'hero power name' Hero Power: Give a friendly minion Divine Shield"
Mage Quest: " Play 10 different spells, Reward: 'hero power name', Passive Hero Power: Spell Damage +3"
Hunter Quest: " Play Summon 10 beasts, Reward: 'hero Power name' Passive Hero Power: Your beasts have rush or Summon a Beast that died this game. (even have a name; Rescue pet)"
How to buy the pre-order (or anything) cheaper within Blizzard Shop without any problems/illegal actions?
I do it virtually every expansion. Just saved 18% which is pretty nice (not a sponsor btw lol). In my experience the only things that you cant buy are blizzard store exclusives - wild packs, wild adventures etc. Edit - responding to Lycaon, obviously I didn't click reply like I thought I did.
Whats your guess for the other QUESTS in SOU?
It's funny because this is exactly what people said about The Caverns Below before Un'Goro was launched. I remember one person even said that if Crystal Core was a collectable card, it still wouldn't see play. Of course, this is obviously horribly wrong.
After Dr. Boom, Mysterious Challenger, The Caverns Below, Prince Keleseth, Possessed Lackey, Genn and Baku, you learn that you can't trust anyone's opinions of cards pre-release. Not even your own. Cards look "interesting" or "fun to try out", but we never know if they're actually good or bad until release.
Whats your guess for the other QUESTS in SOU?
Hunter - Most likely something to do with mechs since they have a lot of those synergies going on at the moment.
Rogue - Could have something related to the lackeys, they get the most utilization out of them (IMO) and if I'm remembering correctly were getting more lackeys with each expansion.
Paladin - Since Paladin was so prevalent in 2018 it might get a slightly weaker/more difficult quest so other classes canstill shine.
Mage - Umm, maybe something with summoning minions from spells? That kind of seems to fit their jive right now.
Priest - Based on looking at current standard cards, a quest idea I can see right away would be "Summon X minions trhat didn't start in your deck." (Big Priest buff lol)
Warrior - Fuckin' bombs or armor or something I don't know with Warrior anymore.
As for any of the rewards, I just can't think of any.
New Shaman Quest Revealed! - Corrupt the Waters
I took the liberty of going through all the Battlecry cards in Standard right now, and there really isn't anything that warrants a buildaround over this. Sure, you can pay 7 mana to get 11/11 in stats with Former champ, you can double up on Hagatha's battlecry on Turn 10, Fire Elemental/Lifedrinker aren't bad either, but this really can't compete with what's in standard right now.
But keep an eye on this, 100%. Doubling up on Battlecries is a very powerful effect, but there's really nothing that exciting you can do with it yet... but it's hard to imagine this won't be good at some point during it's life in Standard. For all we know, the support is coming this expac.
bondage warrior
I didn't include Leeroy in this list because Grom fulfills more or less the same role and there's a lot of better cards to run than Leeroy (Warpath and Wargear). It makes sense to run Leeroy in yours because your list is a lot more aggressive and less mech-oriented than mine. Definitely some interesting stuff to think about though.
Seems like Sul'thraze would be really good in your list over something like Gorehowl or Argent Commander!
Control Paladin
First off, cool deck. I'd always wanted to play Control Paladin back when it was more popular, but I didn't have a lot of the cards at that point (and still don't at least for some of the cards that were in those versions of the deck.). I'm only missing Countess Ashmore and Faceless Manipulator, so I might try out a modified version of the deck. I am curious though where you were playing the deck.
Here's some art, make a card! [Legacy Game]
A tool for Shadow Priests who use cards like Shadowbomber, Spawn of Shadows, etc. It's an Uldum card, to imply there's more to the archetype.
It must be "Sylvanas' Scheme", both in name and appropriate spell effect.