It is a similar story with the mini-sets: people want more content to reduce the time spent with a stale meta, but they don't want there to be a corresponding cost increase to the game. I am also torn on whether HS is an expensive game or not: certainly it sounds expensive to spend $80 every 4 months and still not have access to every card, but that is balanced by the fact you can enjoy the game for years without spending any money at all. If I wanted to be cheeky, I could argue the F2P players are actually raising the cost for everyone else.
Just want to jump into this one specific quote.
- If you're not a wild player then the timeline for enjoying the cards you have now is specifically 2 years. Also, the argument that I can enjoy it for years applies to any game, except none of them will ever end up costing me as much as hearthstone does.
- The idea of F2p players may be costing everyone else (especially those who regularly pays 80 bucks for this) is ludicrous. To begin with, and as artefact has shown us, pasting a price tag on the game and demand we pay for collecting all the cards is a real non starter and will likely end up with many not taking up the game at all. The game is not sustained by its whales, its sustained by its playerbase. Sure, we can paste a 20 bucks price tag to play the game now, and then suffer 10 minutes of queuing time per game because of diminishing players.
Also, let's not forget that hearthstone is a virtual card game. Its not a zero sum world where theres only a specific number of rare-hollows in existence. If Blizz gives out 1000 gold today, it wouldn't crimp the game in anyway, or disadvantage anyone. So there's no reason other than corporate greed for withholding rewards from its playerbase. Like many others, I would prefer that hearthstone makes a profit out of all this, and will and have willingly parted money because the game means something to me. But I've often been taken aback at how greedy that little wide mouthed Yogg-Saron of a company they can get. Its not enough to spend 80 bucks, but not only will you not get all the cards, you're not getting all the content there is as well. On top of that the new mid-expansion idea is going to be a regular thing now. So how much do I have to spend, in both time and money, to get even close to enjoying the game?
It's a really complex system, with a wide variety of XP sources, and a ton of different rewards, so the math can get rather involved. Leaving parts out or estimating things can lead you significantly off.
1. I would rather not estimate the xp I get out of my quest but your system leave me with little choice since there's an effing tier system that makes no sense. Why the hell would I not reroll an 800xp quest for a better one? Again, I don't understand why they'd even go with this bs tier system in the first place. Not only will I reroll every 800xp quest, if I get another 800xp from my reroll, I wouldn't want to play more hearthstone that day so I can reroll it tomorrow. In effect I'm softlocked from the game, because ironically making it easy to accomplish also makes it impossible to avoid finishing.
2. Variety of xp sources is in effect meaning accomplishing the achievements. I already ranted earlier about this, so the gist of it is this: I don't like achievements, and find the conditions not only walled off by needing specific cards, it also handicaps my gameplay. I don't have anything against anyone who'd go all out in their way to do this, but the xp gain here should NOT be considered in the pool
Also, it counts xp from duels. I played it (because of the packs, obviously) and I'm not keen on it. I wouldn't do it again too. I don't feel like counting the xp gains from a mode that's not fun to me as fair to me, or to anyone who shares my opinion. Just saying.
I would recommend that they stop twisting and turning and start telling us straight: Are we getting more gold (and only gold) from the new system as compared to the old one? If the answer is no, then why aren't we getting it? Especially since it was promised earlier.
In all honesty you should disclude the following from your math;
- Achievement xp - I've seen some of the conditions and have deemed them too much a fuss. I don't play hearthstone to purposefully fulfill esoteric conditions that crimps my game. Especially since my opponent will likely not be sympathetic or cooperative in any way. I know some people will find it fun, and I'm not about to shit on that, but that's what it should be: just for fun. The reward structure of xp is supposed to make it rewarding as well, and while I personally don't have anything against that, I start getting annoyed when people start adding it to the pool of 'rewards' that you're supposed to be getting per expansion.
Some of them are, you can say, going to be accomplished anyway, like spinning the wheel of yogg (Yogg will likely be competitive anyway). Others are as painful up the arse as they are impossible, like dealing lethal damage with Oh My Yogg!. Let's also consider this obvious problem: Many of us play only a few classes, and these achievements are not just spread across the classes, they require specific cards to even start doing. What are the off chances of me getting that epic card Darkmoon Rabbit? And that's 600xp off this one card alone. Am I to craft 2x of a card I think nothing of just for this bs?
- Packs from older expansions - This is a bonus. Nothing more, nothing less. After an expansion has passed, I would already have crafted all the cards I want so how much does a pack from, say, Descent of Dragons mean to me? especially since its only 1 pack? The answer is small. About as small as my little pinky is to a piano.
- Cards. Or anything that's not a current expansion pack - Legendaries are not equal to 15 packs, or any other sort of calculations. Again, this is a bonus and should be treated as one. If the argument goes that a legendary card should be taken into consideration as they are extremely rare and therefore valuable, I would say "just give me 15 packs and I'll go away happy". Its obvious a legendary is very valuable indeed. But if we're going to use it as a sort of barometer, I don't see why they don't just give us 15 packs for it. Given the mid expansion being a staple now, I would appreciate 15 packs more anyway.
I'm not particularly up in arms over the new system - yet. But I do think that when they specifically promised that we'll be seeing more gold, they should deliver on it, or we'll hold their feet up the fire until it chars to a nice ebony black. Nothing more, nothing less.
This might be obvious, but just wanted to point out that you should open your golden packs first, because the pity timer is connected to the regular packs!
Really? I thought golden packs were technically a separate thing and more than once I've read golden packs dont have pity timers.
The fact that you didn't get that legendary in the first 10 regular packs is concerning though, what with so many bugs coming out of that latest patch.
I honestly though Game Master would be well hated by the community for its powerlevel. Yes, its basically another Kirin Tor Mage, but is that really something to complain about when both will only generally be useful in an aggro secret build? Had it not been for Rigged Faire Game I would've shared Demonxz95's opinion, but the card draw potential of mage is just too staggering to ignore.
Also, that card can come out on 2, which wouldn't really be all that bad if you already have kirin tor mage in your hand. It also has that unique property of having a target on its head, being close to impossible to ignore on board, something which kirin tor mage never have or will have.
The only problem I have with that card is that Inconspicuous Rider is also equally powerful if not more so, and I think even I will sweat a little to include all three forms of kirin tor mages in one deck.
I think its only normal that we'd see shit like this, not that its acceptable in any way, mind you. The unfortunate reality is that when the mode was wrung out, it would have already had a design document sent to upper management and the first thing they'd look would be the projected profits.
When you start thinking about it that way, it all makes sense. Duels is largely free to play, the introduction of the casuals mode is a deft move, since otherwise few would bother playing it. It features multiple hero powers, and treasures to make each participation interesting. So where does the money flow from? Walling some of the 'interesting' stuff would be a good start.
But yeah, I just went to check a little and can confirm that its unique epics from Scholomance, of which I am a few cards short. Its actually paradoxical that those who would find this interesting over ranked, would then still be required to do the same mundane card collecting expected of ranked players to enjoy it. Its even worse when you consider that most epic cards are largely useless (at least competitively), so there's no reason to ever craft them. Now this comes along walling off the fun until you craft that useless epic. Let's hope you can safely dust it afterwards and not lose access to the treasures. A small consolation, if you can call it that.
A good question to pose is whether paying for it to unlock everything would be a nice alternative. Similar to battlegrounds. So dedicated players need not bust an arm just to enjoy what they want.
I watched Kibler's theorycraft stream, mostly to get the free packs, but also because he tends to test as much as he can. And I got to say, Y'Shaarj, the Defiler would probably be the most consistently strong at what he does compared with, say, Cthun or Yogg.
Priest in particular is insane with Yshaarj, and I wouldn't be too surprised if shaman would be as well.
Yogg is just removal, Cthun is too slow but it might lack refinement, I missed out on his Nzoth games and didn't see a single guy play nzoth against him. While I rarely see Yshaarj myself, the corrupt cards frequently look very good (Strongman and Fleethoof Pearltusk are particularly good neutrals), enough to convince me that the first deck I would play would probably be Yshaarj priest.
If you can fill the board, in most cases, I would say that's more or less the powerlevel the devs probably intended with Yshaarj. Don't think the mid expansions would explode in power, though with better corrupt cards its inevitable that he'll get better.
The story actually ends before the start of the Iron Horde saga? I guess it would be difficult to cover his entire story since its so long, not least by the fact that it ends in his death.
So I went along to have a casual look at the xp gains from achievements and its conditions.
I wouldn't count of getting much from it. Some of them are pretty ridiculous, like getting Redeemed Pariah to have 10 attack (I already think the minion sucks, and now the devs seem to think its possible to ever stick it on board and get it to that high an attack). Others are pretty much walled out - requiring specific cards (legendaries) to ever have even the slightest chance of making it. And every class has its own crazed achievements. So if I don't particularly want to play, say, shaman, I would miss out on the xp from those achievements.
Not sure for now if you can complete this while battling a friend (which will trivialize the achievements to be honest). But if not, then I'll say the best estimate is that you'll only managed about a third of them, if at all.
Bragging rights nothing. Completing each class achievements should award a gold medal that is visible when playing so everyone can see you would have willingly sold one of your own kidneys to get these done.
Yeah, I can see it more clearly now. I've made a mistake in my own earlier calculations by not looking harder at the total xp needed to reach level 50. From what I can see now, it will still take around 3 months for anyone not playing this full time to get to level 50. The total gold gained at the end of the 4 months should be around 6k gold + 7 current expansion packs.
Man, looks like we got hoodwinked around 2k gold.
Hope there's enough fire and brimstone generated around so team5 reviews this shit. Otherwise, I might have to review my own involvement with hearthstone in future.
the 10% Xp boost only applies per pass, per expansion. So no, you don't get to accumulate xp boost across multiple tavern passes, if that's what you're trying to ask.
Are we really taking the piss here? I don't really play much battlegrounds to begin with. How many games are we talking about on average that someone even gets to top 4, let alone top 2.
It flabbergasts me why team5 even persist with this delusion that there's players who'd actually won't reroll those lowroll quests.
Take the example of the 'play 30 cards' quest that gives out 800xp compared with play 10 odd/even cards that gives out 1000xp. Are we really going to argue that its actually harder to play 10 odd/even cards compared to 30 cards?
I thought the revamp would've at least gotten rid of this nonsense. Guess we'd just have to live with this idea no one wants, likes, or care about.
i see that weekly quests (at least the 4 i saw cause i rerolled 1) are about playing around game modes and i dont really want to play other game modes out of the one i like... i dont think the game should "force" someone into playing something they doesnt really feel like to play... ("force" cause ofc you dont necessarely need to do that, but still you are gonna lose much exp)
You can just keep rerolling the more egregious ones (top 2 in battlegrounds, like really team5?) throughout the week. So I wouldn't exactly call it forced
You get like 4200 gold just getting up to level 50, which by my own estimates should take less than a month. So consider that as a advance of the amount on the gold you'll get from the full 4 months.
I wouldn't take issue with the gold per week after cap, since by then I'm usually hoarding gold for the next expansion anyway.
yeah, that 10% boost will mean you get about 30420 extra xp which translate to around 1000 extra gold. Could be more depending on play time.
But its still not really worth it for me. 20 USD is an awful lot of money where I come from. Had it not been for the mid expansion being staple now, I might have been tempted. But knowing blizz, they would likely put up some sort of discount bundle at the same price mid expansion too, so I rather spend my money there.
You get around 4200 gold before you reach the cap + 7 packs of the current expansion. Let's say its an even 5k gold worth before the cap.
From there on you need about 4k - 4.5k xp per level after the cap to gain 150 gold. So that's about 4 quests. In one week you can get 7 quest + 1 weekly quest up to a minimum of 7350. Let's factor in the fact that you will highroll your dailies about 4 times in 7 days that's 8150 xp per week, not counting the xp gains when you play the game.
So, assuming you reach about 9k xp per week, you can just about look forward to 300 gold per week after the cap (which should theoretically take you less than 24 days to reach). 3 months worth at 300 gold per week is about 3600 gold. Which means you'll have about 7800 gold by the end of the expansion. Pretty much near what I would call near breakeven with the old system.
Edit: Okay, thanks to meneznas for reminding me that you get 3 weekly quest per week (its rather unintuitive to be honest). So my revised calc is as below;
7 quests + 3 weekly = 11650 xp per week (not counting xp gains from plays, at 4 dailies highrolls). So that's 139,800 xp in three months, which makes up to about 4650 gold after the level 50 cap.
Add that to the 4200 gold gained up to level 50 that's 8850 gold. Which is about on par with what most people are getting from 4 months per expansion. If I compare it with my own gains from the old system, that goes over what I usually get.
(Feel free to check my math. I'm doing this on the back of an envelope, so you'll pardon me if there's any mistakes)
Just want to jump into this one specific quote.
- If you're not a wild player then the timeline for enjoying the cards you have now is specifically 2 years. Also, the argument that I can enjoy it for years applies to any game, except none of them will ever end up costing me as much as hearthstone does.
- The idea of F2p players may be costing everyone else (especially those who regularly pays 80 bucks for this) is ludicrous. To begin with, and as artefact has shown us, pasting a price tag on the game and demand we pay for collecting all the cards is a real non starter and will likely end up with many not taking up the game at all. The game is not sustained by its whales, its sustained by its playerbase. Sure, we can paste a 20 bucks price tag to play the game now, and then suffer 10 minutes of queuing time per game because of diminishing players.
Also, let's not forget that hearthstone is a virtual card game. Its not a zero sum world where theres only a specific number of rare-hollows in existence. If Blizz gives out 1000 gold today, it wouldn't crimp the game in anyway, or disadvantage anyone. So there's no reason other than corporate greed for withholding rewards from its playerbase. Like many others, I would prefer that hearthstone makes a profit out of all this, and will and have willingly parted money because the game means something to me. But I've often been taken aback at how greedy that little wide mouthed Yogg-Saron of a company they can get. Its not enough to spend 80 bucks, but not only will you not get all the cards, you're not getting all the content there is as well. On top of that the new mid-expansion idea is going to be a regular thing now. So how much do I have to spend, in both time and money, to get even close to enjoying the game?
1. I would rather not estimate the xp I get out of my quest but your system leave me with little choice since there's an effing tier system that makes no sense. Why the hell would I not reroll an 800xp quest for a better one? Again, I don't understand why they'd even go with this bs tier system in the first place. Not only will I reroll every 800xp quest, if I get another 800xp from my reroll, I wouldn't want to play more hearthstone that day so I can reroll it tomorrow. In effect I'm softlocked from the game, because ironically making it easy to accomplish also makes it impossible to avoid finishing.
2. Variety of xp sources is in effect meaning accomplishing the achievements. I already ranted earlier about this, so the gist of it is this: I don't like achievements, and find the conditions not only walled off by needing specific cards, it also handicaps my gameplay. I don't have anything against anyone who'd go all out in their way to do this, but the xp gain here should NOT be considered in the pool
Also, it counts xp from duels. I played it (because of the packs, obviously) and I'm not keen on it. I wouldn't do it again too. I don't feel like counting the xp gains from a mode that's not fun to me as fair to me, or to anyone who shares my opinion. Just saying.
I would recommend that they stop twisting and turning and start telling us straight: Are we getting more gold (and only gold) from the new system as compared to the old one? If the answer is no, then why aren't we getting it? Especially since it was promised earlier.
In all honesty you should disclude the following from your math;
- Achievement xp - I've seen some of the conditions and have deemed them too much a fuss. I don't play hearthstone to purposefully fulfill esoteric conditions that crimps my game. Especially since my opponent will likely not be sympathetic or cooperative in any way. I know some people will find it fun, and I'm not about to shit on that, but that's what it should be: just for fun. The reward structure of xp is supposed to make it rewarding as well, and while I personally don't have anything against that, I start getting annoyed when people start adding it to the pool of 'rewards' that you're supposed to be getting per expansion.
Some of them are, you can say, going to be accomplished anyway, like spinning the wheel of yogg (Yogg will likely be competitive anyway). Others are as painful up the arse as they are impossible, like dealing lethal damage with Oh My Yogg!. Let's also consider this obvious problem: Many of us play only a few classes, and these achievements are not just spread across the classes, they require specific cards to even start doing. What are the off chances of me getting that epic card Darkmoon Rabbit? And that's 600xp off this one card alone. Am I to craft 2x of a card I think nothing of just for this bs?
- Packs from older expansions - This is a bonus. Nothing more, nothing less. After an expansion has passed, I would already have crafted all the cards I want so how much does a pack from, say, Descent of Dragons mean to me? especially since its only 1 pack? The answer is small. About as small as my little pinky is to a piano.
- Cards. Or anything that's not a current expansion pack - Legendaries are not equal to 15 packs, or any other sort of calculations. Again, this is a bonus and should be treated as one. If the argument goes that a legendary card should be taken into consideration as they are extremely rare and therefore valuable, I would say "just give me 15 packs and I'll go away happy". Its obvious a legendary is very valuable indeed. But if we're going to use it as a sort of barometer, I don't see why they don't just give us 15 packs for it. Given the mid expansion being a staple now, I would appreciate 15 packs more anyway.
I'm not particularly up in arms over the new system - yet. But I do think that when they specifically promised that we'll be seeing more gold, they should deliver on it, or we'll hold their feet up the fire until it chars to a nice ebony black. Nothing more, nothing less.
Really? I thought golden packs were technically a separate thing and more than once I've read golden packs dont have pity timers.
The fact that you didn't get that legendary in the first 10 regular packs is concerning though, what with so many bugs coming out of that latest patch.
I honestly though Game Master would be well hated by the community for its powerlevel. Yes, its basically another Kirin Tor Mage, but is that really something to complain about when both will only generally be useful in an aggro secret build? Had it not been for Rigged Faire Game I would've shared Demonxz95's opinion, but the card draw potential of mage is just too staggering to ignore.
Also, that card can come out on 2, which wouldn't really be all that bad if you already have kirin tor mage in your hand. It also has that unique property of having a target on its head, being close to impossible to ignore on board, something which kirin tor mage never have or will have.
The only problem I have with that card is that Inconspicuous Rider is also equally powerful if not more so, and I think even I will sweat a little to include all three forms of kirin tor mages in one deck.
I think its only normal that we'd see shit like this, not that its acceptable in any way, mind you. The unfortunate reality is that when the mode was wrung out, it would have already had a design document sent to upper management and the first thing they'd look would be the projected profits.
When you start thinking about it that way, it all makes sense. Duels is largely free to play, the introduction of the casuals mode is a deft move, since otherwise few would bother playing it. It features multiple hero powers, and treasures to make each participation interesting. So where does the money flow from? Walling some of the 'interesting' stuff would be a good start.
But yeah, I just went to check a little and can confirm that its unique epics from Scholomance, of which I am a few cards short. Its actually paradoxical that those who would find this interesting over ranked, would then still be required to do the same mundane card collecting expected of ranked players to enjoy it. Its even worse when you consider that most epic cards are largely useless (at least competitively), so there's no reason to ever craft them. Now this comes along walling off the fun until you craft that useless epic. Let's hope you can safely dust it afterwards and not lose access to the treasures. A small consolation, if you can call it that.
A good question to pose is whether paying for it to unlock everything would be a nice alternative. Similar to battlegrounds. So dedicated players need not bust an arm just to enjoy what they want.
I watched Kibler's theorycraft stream, mostly to get the free packs, but also because he tends to test as much as he can. And I got to say, Y'Shaarj, the Defiler would probably be the most consistently strong at what he does compared with, say, Cthun or Yogg.
Priest in particular is insane with Yshaarj, and I wouldn't be too surprised if shaman would be as well.
Yogg is just removal, Cthun is too slow but it might lack refinement, I missed out on his Nzoth games and didn't see a single guy play nzoth against him. While I rarely see Yshaarj myself, the corrupt cards frequently look very good (Strongman and Fleethoof Pearltusk are particularly good neutrals), enough to convince me that the first deck I would play would probably be Yshaarj priest.
If you can fill the board, in most cases, I would say that's more or less the powerlevel the devs probably intended with Yshaarj. Don't think the mid expansions would explode in power, though with better corrupt cards its inevitable that he'll get better.
The story actually ends before the start of the Iron Horde saga? I guess it would be difficult to cover his entire story since its so long, not least by the fact that it ends in his death.
its ranked
So I went along to have a casual look at the xp gains from achievements and its conditions.
I wouldn't count of getting much from it. Some of them are pretty ridiculous, like getting Redeemed Pariah to have 10 attack (I already think the minion sucks, and now the devs seem to think its possible to ever stick it on board and get it to that high an attack). Others are pretty much walled out - requiring specific cards (legendaries) to ever have even the slightest chance of making it. And every class has its own crazed achievements. So if I don't particularly want to play, say, shaman, I would miss out on the xp from those achievements.
Not sure for now if you can complete this while battling a friend (which will trivialize the achievements to be honest). But if not, then I'll say the best estimate is that you'll only managed about a third of them, if at all.
Bragging rights nothing. Completing each class achievements should award a gold medal that is visible when playing so everyone can see you would have willingly sold one of your own kidneys to get these done.
Just as a gauge, to anyone interested
Played around 20+ min = 120xp
Since theres a cap on individual games, I would guess that its 150xp if you played a game that lasted 30 min and above.
Yeah, I can see it more clearly now. I've made a mistake in my own earlier calculations by not looking harder at the total xp needed to reach level 50. From what I can see now, it will still take around 3 months for anyone not playing this full time to get to level 50. The total gold gained at the end of the 4 months should be around 6k gold + 7 current expansion packs.
Man, looks like we got hoodwinked around 2k gold.
Hope there's enough fire and brimstone generated around so team5 reviews this shit. Otherwise, I might have to review my own involvement with hearthstone in future.
the 10% Xp boost only applies per pass, per expansion. So no, you don't get to accumulate xp boost across multiple tavern passes, if that's what you're trying to ask.
Finish top 2 in battlegrounds.
Are we really taking the piss here? I don't really play much battlegrounds to begin with. How many games are we talking about on average that someone even gets to top 4, let alone top 2.
It flabbergasts me why team5 even persist with this delusion that there's players who'd actually won't reroll those lowroll quests.
Take the example of the 'play 30 cards' quest that gives out 800xp compared with play 10 odd/even cards that gives out 1000xp. Are we really going to argue that its actually harder to play 10 odd/even cards compared to 30 cards?
I thought the revamp would've at least gotten rid of this nonsense. Guess we'd just have to live with this idea no one wants, likes, or care about.
You can just keep rerolling the more egregious ones (top 2 in battlegrounds, like really team5?) throughout the week. So I wouldn't exactly call it forced
You get like 4200 gold just getting up to level 50, which by my own estimates should take less than a month. So consider that as a advance of the amount on the gold you'll get from the full 4 months.
I wouldn't take issue with the gold per week after cap, since by then I'm usually hoarding gold for the next expansion anyway.
yeah, that 10% boost will mean you get about 30420 extra xp which translate to around 1000 extra gold. Could be more depending on play time.
But its still not really worth it for me. 20 USD is an awful lot of money where I come from. Had it not been for the mid expansion being staple now, I might have been tempted. But knowing blizz, they would likely put up some sort of discount bundle at the same price mid expansion too, so I rather spend my money there.
You get around 4200 gold before you reach the cap + 7 packs of the current expansion. Let's say its an even 5k gold worth before the cap.
From there on you need about 4k - 4.5k xp per level after the cap to gain 150 gold. So that's about 4 quests. In one week you can get 7 quest + 1 weekly quest up to a minimum of 7350. Let's factor in the fact that you will highroll your dailies about 4 times in 7 days that's 8150 xp per week, not counting the xp gains when you play the game.
So, assuming you reach about 9k xp per week, you can just about look forward to 300 gold per week after the cap (which should theoretically take you less than 24 days to reach). 3 months worth at 300 gold per week is about 3600 gold. Which means you'll have about 7800 gold by the end of the expansion. Pretty much near what I would call near breakeven with the old system.
Edit: Okay, thanks to meneznas for reminding me that you get 3 weekly quest per week (its rather unintuitive to be honest). So my revised calc is as below;
7 quests + 3 weekly = 11650 xp per week (not counting xp gains from plays, at 4 dailies highrolls). So that's 139,800 xp in three months, which makes up to about 4650 gold after the level 50 cap.
Add that to the 4200 gold gained up to level 50 that's 8850 gold. Which is about on par with what most people are getting from 4 months per expansion. If I compare it with my own gains from the old system, that goes over what I usually get.
(Feel free to check my math. I'm doing this on the back of an envelope, so you'll pardon me if there's any mistakes)
Thanks. Guess that also means the progression wont reset when DMF starts