The new normal since last expansion is to do the reveals 2 weeks before the actual expansion itself. Prior to that, we'd have that announcement to the announcement of the expansion by now.
I wouldn't be too surprised to see it announced maybe next week, with a select 6 cards revealed early. That should give them time to set that supposed final set of nerfs before the end of AoO, which I think should be anytime this week.
I will say, my solution for Outcast in heavier decks is simple. Make them too slow for aggro decks to use. Four of the cards are card draw, three of them literally say "Outcast: Draw a card", and the other two are instant damage to minions. Give Outcast to card generation effects, big demons, stuff like that. It really shouldn't be on anything cheaper than five mana, at least for a little bit.
The outcast mech is one of those things that after 2 months of playing dhunters, I can safely say is only really viable for a deck playing a bunch of cheap stuff, i.e. aggro decks, or even control dhunter. It simply doesn't work with greedy decks or decks playing lots of high costed cards. In effect its to say that the mana cost of the card itself doesnt matter, its never going to be too slow for aggro. The only thing that matters is its effect, hence why we don't see Illidari Felblade in tempo dhunter. Skull of Gul'dan is 6 mana, and while there is a world where its too slow for aggro (viper notoriously avoids it like the plague before the the third nerf), the effect is just too strong to ignore. This is not replicated in big dhunters, for reasons stated.
So the best way forward is to create more cards that guarantees outcast in a way like Sightless Watcher, and to design it in such a way that it doesn't draw cards or deal direct damage. For the time being (until team5 decides to create the dhunter core classic set from the bunch of cards now), my opinion is that outcast should only have defensive, not offensive effects.
I think the Demon Hunter class was overall very well-designed. The Outcast mechanic, the class identity of being attack-based, the synergy of its core cards that formed its identity...everything was well-designed and thought of, and some classes would kill to have core cards as great as DH (looking at you, Paladin).
The main problem was how overtuned and overpowered everything was. 5-mana Skull of Gul'dan, Priestess of Fury, Altruis the Outcast, 0-mana Eye Beam...basically every nerfed card used to be oppressive that they just terrorized the meta from the start. The class was too efficient and powerful, as compared to the other classes whose identity and power level kind of bogged down due to numerous expansion sets and a weak core set to begin with.
I'm interested for DH to have more control-based archetypes in the next expansion. In fact, it's already got great tools for a variety of archetypes, and I won't be surprised if the class gets terrible cards in the next expansion to prevent it from dominating again. That said, I'm still excited to see what direction they'll take the class in for the future.
I can't say I agree entirely that the class was well designed. Its not like team5 needed reminders on how oppressive an aggro deck can get when its supplied with plenty of draw cards AND cheap tempo cards to boot. The nerfs/changes were timely, but corrective, after it was apparent that nothing else could match dhunters in its first iteration. The outcast mech, while interesting, means that the class can never be anything more than a deck that plays cheap cards (big dhunters are a good example. You'd play Sightless Watcher just to guarantee outcast effects). I look forward to them printing cards to guarantee outcast effects, or something to smooth out the problems when playing greedy decks.
That said, its all in the past now. Fundamentally dhunters are in a better spot in standard (its still broken in wild) than it has ever been. I agree that the other classes kinda got screwed with a weaker core set, but that's exactly what I think team5 should be working on instead of constant nerfs to dhunters.
Shadowhoof Slayer's a better card than it appears to be, especially since Twin Slice is no longer 0 mana. If the meta turns to aggro then I expect more of this card.
Ur'zul Horror is just bad. Put this down, it dies to a hp, and it messes up with your outcast cards. Had this been a battlecry it would have been a niche if only as fodder for Altruis the Outcast. But as it stands, in wild [Hearthstone Card (firefly) Not Found] is infinitely better and in standard there's just better 1 drops than this card.
Feast of Souls is just a good card being screwed by better cards. Notably, to use this properly you'd run a token deck, and token dhunters happens to suck a lot. It also competes badly with Skull of Gul'dan and is a conditional card unlike Spectral Sight. But if token ever gets a leg up, then this card will naturally get a second look.
Soul Split is not bad, its just not covering anything at the moment. There's no deathrattle demons worth this card's attention, and most big demons in dhunter are expensive and there's no value in copying them. Had this card been, give the minion deathrattle: resummon this, this card might have seen better usage.
Lastly, Fel Summoner. Don't let the stats fool you, this card's great because it does something no other card in dhunters do, and that's providing board clear insurance against classes like priest, mage and warlock. That it has 8 attack means unlike Possessed Lackey it can't be just ignored on board, and if it pulls out a Pit Commander its just game over against certain classes. If the win rate is low, that's likely because big dhunters aren't very good, and it costs 6 mana. But if big dhunters gets anywhere in the next expansion, this card will certainly be part of its core.
At least the Arrana package comes with 20 AoO packs, which is probably a good enough deal on its own. So happens they throw in a new skin, though in my opinion, Illidan's just too iconic to put aside for Aranna.
Having to react to what you pull from your opponent is skill testing.
It would be if you knew what cards he got. But in hearthstone this is not the case.
You just can't play around everything, especially with priest since they normally outvalue your deck so its on you to be proactive. You just can't sit and play around a tiny chance of a very specific card they got from your deck.
I think everything could be fixed if DH had nothing between Face-Aggro and Big/Control.
Issue right now is that DH is too efficient and has too many options both with Face damage AND Tempo. Those two things, toppled by ridiculous card draw, break the paradigm of Aggro, as it was mentioned in the OP.
So my proposal is to nerf to the ground the bodies of all DH minions between (1) and (5), reducing their hp below average, and their attack barely at average levels.
Battlefiend should be 2/1 (yep, stronger attack, but pinging it away would be really easy). Glaivebound Adept should be 5/3, Kayn Sunfury should be 3/4 (or 4/3 or 4/2). And beaming sidekick to give just +1 (it's Neutral, but +2 is just too much at (1), compare with kuktiran chaplain and Kabal Talonpriest).
At that point, Frozen Shadoweaver can be put to rest at (4) (compare with spellbreaker).
That would leave Face DH available for flavor, but weak to Control and classic Tempo decks, by virtue of the board weakness on the DH side.
And if you want a better board, you go Big.
DH fixed forever, as long as they stick with the paradigm.
On a sidenote, I think the Rush Illidari bodies should never be buffed in any way, as you do not want DH to become a wide+tall class (it also makes little sense flavor-wise IMO).
I like your suggestion to the change in stats, except Battlefiend. I think as a 1/2 its already pretty weak, especially since Twin Slice is no longer 0 mana.
On the illidari bodies buffing, it all depends on what the activator is and how much mana. If its 2 mana to give a +1+1 then its still within acceptable ranges for me even if it gets thrown into tempo dhunters. There's only like 2 cards that generate those illidari initiates right now, and both rather suck in tempo dhunters anyway.
I just wanted some big payoff for token dhunters. Perhaps even a 4/4, 7 mana that reduces with every dead opposing minion. Either way, token feels really bad right now, and that's largely because of poor tempo. Giving these specific tokens +1+1 will give it a boost, but hardly game breaking.
Just over 2 years ago we would be lucky to get 2 balance patches in one expansion, but this is would be the fifth balance patch for hearthstone within 3 months and possibly the most we would have ever got so far in hearthstone history.
So here's some of my views;
- Dragonqueen Alexstrasza and Zephrys the Great are powerful cards for building and playing your deck in a specific way and I honestly dont think they need to be changed or nerfed. Maybe Zephrys itself has too fair a statline so its still basically a tempo play at 2 without the effect. Maybe make him a 1/2 instead? Dragonqueen is perfect the way she is now. There aren't many dragons with taunt and outside of that only Alexstrasza, Nozari and Amber Watcher can give you a breather so you can never just jam dragonqueen and expect 100% to live the next turn out.
- Dragoncaster isn't the real problem here, nor is playing Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron on 6. The real problem is the RNG nature of casino mage that turns something mildly interesting into an offensive soup when your deck's win condition is basically that. In fact, I'd go so far to say that The Amazing Reno is the worst offender of this. You can be on top until he brings out a Twisting Nether out of nowhere and suddenly your opponent got a free board reset and 10 mana to rebuild it. If anything, at very least puzzlebox ends his turn and gives you the right to rebuild first.
So what to do? For god sakes just print better cards for mage and stop all that RNG nonsense that made the term casino mage an actual archetype. Solarian Prime is how you make RNG good, not The Amazing Reno. Im actually offended that amazing reno didn't even get a mention for a change here, because Im absolutely convinced his random spells should take place at the end of the turn than the start.
Quote From Iksar
When all classes start generating resources outside their deck it makes the classes that specialize in resource generation like Priest or Mage feel less special.
- Even before this identity crap, I never once felt it made any class special because they kept getting cards from the nether. But it does annoy me to no end whenever mage gets a free ride from a randomly generated spell, while I stare at defeat even when Im doing everything right up to that point. Priest has the same problem, and its even worse since most of their cards generate cards so from one card to another they can keep that train going, and since none of those generated cards are revealed its never possible to play around any of them. Libram paladin vs galakrond priest is possibly the most annoying in living memory since its actually very possible for them to just get your win condition well before you get them yourself. And in priest mirrors, well, I had the pleasure of witnessing this in an actual tournament, and found it to suck. Alot.
- So less RNG in the next expansion. Yes please. I dont have anything against RNG effects and see them as necessary to keep things interesting, but when it get to the point that wins and losses depend solely on whose offering to RNjesus is better then that's when alarm bells ought to be ringing loudest.
- Galakrond giving out 0 mana cards is actually fine to me. At least in rogue, when most cards are cheap anyway, the 0 costed cards can mean anything from getting Flik Skyshiv at 0 to things like Praise Galakrond!. To properly balance galakrond rogue, just balance the invoke cards. Seal fate for example should deal 2 damage, and the early tempo loss from that can mean a hell lot more than four 0 cost cards. Rogue also has less healing options and can be generally taken down simply by playing on curve. If anything, I'd say giving that 5/2 weapon to fully invoked galakrond is even worse than the 0 mana cards.
Also, lets not compare this to Skull of Gul'dan. Skull is a card being played on an aggro deck, requires no invoke cards prior to it being played, and its only downside is you'd have to maneuver and get it outcasted to get your effect. And the effect is game winning. 2 mana Glaivebound Adept, or even at very worse, 3 damage fodder for Altruis the Outcast. Which is the more offensive? my vote goes to skull.
Okay, so we're near the end of the AoO expansion with one month left to go, and the next expansion will very likely be announced after the felfire festival, so let's have a look at demon hunter as a class throughout its introduction.
Identity
What the class was imagined to be was, aggressively stated minions, with powerful card draw options, and clears minions using the hero via weapons etc. Its weak to board clears, have weak card generation, and supposedly big minions.
Meta Tier Performance
This needs no mention. Dhunters are currently at the top of the tier in both standard and wild, and it used to be top in arena as well until it was taken down. Suffice to say if you crafted Kayn Sunfury, Warglaives of Azzinoth, and Metamorphosis you'll not be left disappointed throughout this expansion.
Admitably, its no longer so easy to play as dhunter, at least in standard. There's plenty of counters and with a third round of nerf/change, dhunters are actually only barely on top of standard. But if ranking up is your game, then dhunters are easy picks. Even amid nerfs, changes, counters and predictability, the deck can still win with multiple options for burst and tempo.
Variety of decks in Demon Hunter Class
There's currently five archetypes of varied viability other than tempo: control, highlander, big demons, combo and token. That's a lot considering that they have the least number of cards between the classes.
Control dhunter (introduced by pro hearthstone player Eddie) is surprisingly good. In the current meta, there's just not enough healing so this deck practically kills you using nothing but Warglaives of Azzinoth + Metamorphosis. Reload via Hoard Pillager and Vulpera Scoundrel. Its actually insane how much damage you can put down with only those two cards, not even mentioning Magtheridon and Zephrys the Great. The deck preys on druids, aggro-tempo decks, mages, priest and rogues on a good day.
Highlander lacks consistency but is far from unplayable. I personally don't like the deck, and have only played limited amounts of it even in its heyday. Cant comment much, but I dont recall ever losing a match to highlander dhunters.
Big dhunter is perhaps the most interesting. Its actually not half bad, but suffers from lack of value. Pit Commander is absolutely insane, as is Coilfang Warlord. Unfortunately, the deck lacks reload, and since all Galakrond decks basically out values it, its hard to play this deck without an overwhelming sense of being screwed.
Combo dhunters are dead, basically. With Twin Slice no longer at 0 mana, you can't activate [Hearthstone Card (kael'thas) Not Found] to do that massive 20 + damage anymore. Ironically now we all got our golden kael'thas, the card is no longer relevant in standard.
Token never got off and as it stands its not going anywhere. More than any other archetype for this class, I've experimented with token dhunters to no success worth mentioning. Wrathscale Naga is excellent, but because theres no way to consistently manipulate all the 3 damage to face, the combo isnt worth preparing for. Not to mention that token dhunters can't maintain much tempo and doesnt have available the burst damage needed even if they somehow manages to stick a board.
Has the class been a net positive to hearthstone as a game?
Fans have been clamoring for a new class ever since KotFT when everyone thought death knights would make an excellent class. They've got their wish, but perhaps not in the way they hoped. The class dominated so much in its early days that opinions on dhunters as a class cannot be anything less than scornful (at least from what I've seen in both this and hearthpwn forums/comments), both at how it was designed to be OP from the start, and the multiple nerfs it had to endure, including an early nerf coming 2 weeks after the expansion started (and announced a week after it started)
I'm of the opinion that unless the next expansion quickly introduces some better taunts and healing options, the class as it stands now is not a net positive for the game. That is mostly not because the class itself is problematic, but because tempo dhunters is messing around the way how an aggro deck should theoretically work like, and the available counters to it.
The basic gameplan of an aggro deck is to pump everything in the early turns to get them to lethal range before it eventually gets outvalued around turn 5 and above, while the opponent (if not an aggro deck itself) actively removes the board as efficiently as possible, stabilizes and present a counter board for lethal. If the aggro deck is able to continuously and consistently reload, i.e. zoolock via hp, aggro rogue, and now tempo dhunter, then clearing board is no longer efficient, and the way out now is to race while staying out of lethal range.
The problem currently: There's not enough good early game taunts. And with the identity thing that team5 is subjecting the classes to means that healing options are limited. In other words, you cannot have an aggro class with an aggressive draw engine without also providing decent (but not overpowered) counter options for midrange-control decks. Unsurprisingly, the only decks that competently counters tempo dhunters are warrior, and quest warlock.
Also, aggro deck mirrors used to be a battle of efficiency, planning and tempo. Now its just about playing around Warglaives of Azzinoth, with some traditional aggro decks (primarily murlocs and token) having absolutely no counter to how warglaives work.
This is basically what aggro rogue used to be (in the early days of RoS). Raiding Party at 3 mana and un-nerf prep was the skull of its time, and its late game burst with leeroy + [Hearthstone Card (wagglepick) Not Found] is comparable to Metamorphosis finisher turns. That deck was promptly nerfed, with many players expressing their disapproval with aggro rogue's dominance and gameplan. What made it bad then but acceptable now in dhunter?
Ironically, tempo dhunters are so efficient that its nearly impossible to consider any other archetypes in the same class. So this one archetype is not only screwing everyone but warrior, its also screwing itself.
What Next?
I don't necessarily think nerfing the class for any further should be warranted. As much as I think tempo dhunters is not healthy for hearthstone, a fourth change/nerf will be ridiculous, especially with an expansion incoming in a months time. I will list down what I personally think team5 should consider in the forthcoming expansion.
- No more new direct damage dealing spells or minions for dhunter class.
- Better early game taunts. Honestly just bring back Tar Creeper. I'd even go so far as to suggest that Wax Elemental would be a good fit for the current meta.
- A better replacement for Earthen Ring Farseer. nearly everthing in classic got powercrept, why not this one? a 3 mana 2/4 taunt that heals only face for 3 is a somewhat good card against aggro. Would also give Frozen Shadoweaver a run for her money.
- Late game value cards for dhunter class. Best still if its a demon. Maybe a 7 mana 4/4, summon a random demon at the end of your turn.
- Something to help out tempo in token dhunter. Maybe a 1 mana 1/2, give your illidari initiates +1+1. Or something like Goru the Mightree for illidari initiates.
What do you guys think about demon hunters as a class, and what future can we look forward to, with the forthcoming expansion in mind?
Maybe the new game mode would be the fabled 'limited wild' mode where they rotate the standard there within 3-6 expansions throughout hearthstone history. Would be a decent way to attract the older players to come back, and would be less daunting than wild itself. It would also be a lot easier to balance, and encourages players to buy old packs.
As for the expansion incoming, I wouldn't be too surprised if it only happens to be purple, but otherwise unrelated to traditional purple related stuff in WoW. Boomsday was, if Im not mistaken, completely unrelated to the void and yet manages to get in on the same purple theme. Also, its likely that the expansion would be less serious and more lighthearted. We already had the 'serious' expansion in AoO, so the other 2 will likely be more silly.
Either the cards are completely different from standard, and/or they change the hero powers completely. I can't imagine team5 balancing the entire sets of expansions just to fit in this dual-class concept.
Not that Im complaining if it turns out that way, just trying to imagine every tier 1 deck being something + dhunters.
Even when hearthstone was at its lowest and I wasn't feeling it I still finish up my quests. Takes about half hour to finish 3 quests, assuming youre okay with taking deliberate losses.
I get what you're saying, but the real question is how long a break are you planning? The sunken cost effect is perhaps only really relevant to those planning and failing to take breaks the size of an expansion, which is roughly 3 months. If you mean youre getting that feeling that you need to play hearthstone everyday to maximize value, you can easily just stop for 2 days and come back the third day, finish up your quests, and lose no value at all.
I dont think dhunters are currently a problem. If nothing else its at least predictable.
Other decks like highlander mage barely win without some rng involved (via The Amazing Reno, in which is probably the single most high rolling card in the game). Still others are even worse like galakrond priest, which effectively have no win condition other than grabbing yours. And druid probably seals the deal with ramp AND swarming cards that more or less means you either remove their board or die the next turn.
Between dhunters and the decks named above, I'd think dhunters are the lesser of the two evils. The number of times I'd just lose my game because of a reno highroll, or thoughtsteal highroll, or just plain destroyed because my opponent has effectively 4 mana ramp over mine, I'd sleep better knowing that dhunters at very least played genuinely good cards rather than rng themselves a win out of nowhere.
we should be getting the announcement for the announcement right after the felfire festival. Wouldnt surprised me if the new cards start streaming in around 15th July.
Patron warrior (prior to Warsong Commander nerf) and now egg/enrage warrior is probably the hardest to play in their time.
- Its a combo deck that relies on very specific cards, but with no strict requirement for the win (you can still do very well with Warsong Commander + Frothing Berserker) so players have to both rely on information currently at hand and possible draws in the future. Not exactly easy stuff
- The deck at its best requires the player to understand the amount of damage possible currently, and what specific card can give them lethal in the next few turns. So do you swing your Death's Bite for that 4 damage to face, or hold on for patron? Do you swing now, or later? you also have to account for ooze, which can easily scupper your plans. What if there are multiple taunts? etc.
- At that time, there were some disruption cards that can easily block patron warrior like Loatheb. Also, the deck didn't exactly have the best board clears at that time so it cannot simply ignore board like how the current egg warrior has with armorsmith + risky skipper.
- Unlike other combo decks, patron and egg warrior's combo rely on damaging their own minions, so misplays are honestly very common.
- Like APM priest, this deck plays lots of cards for the win. Unlike APM priest, the damage output is finite. So you can easily dump all your cards with no straight forward guarantee for the win, and even if you do, one mistake is all it takes to complete belly up the game. APM priest has a specific sequence which means its easily memorized, patron/egg warrior does not.
Have a look into youtube. One of the notable matches I can remember was lifecoach vs trump (yes its more well known for that roping meme) Undoubtedly there are better matches, but I can't recall the exact names of the players.
"deal 3 damage to an enemy or heal friendlies for 3" for 0 mana, and he can do it twice.
Me. Deal 2 damage to yourself and summon an imp.
Concede turn 1.
And this, I'm led to believe, is the norm with increasingly stupid hero powers as you move upwards. Wouldn't know. I got my pack and got out while I still held my sanity.
Wish the quests actually understands that I had no chance from turn 1 so I can at very least concede and finish it up.
The new normal since last expansion is to do the reveals 2 weeks before the actual expansion itself. Prior to that, we'd have that announcement to the announcement of the expansion by now.
I wouldn't be too surprised to see it announced maybe next week, with a select 6 cards revealed early. That should give them time to set that supposed final set of nerfs before the end of AoO, which I think should be anytime this week.
The outcast mech is one of those things that after 2 months of playing dhunters, I can safely say is only really viable for a deck playing a bunch of cheap stuff, i.e. aggro decks, or even control dhunter. It simply doesn't work with greedy decks or decks playing lots of high costed cards. In effect its to say that the mana cost of the card itself doesnt matter, its never going to be too slow for aggro. The only thing that matters is its effect, hence why we don't see Illidari Felblade in tempo dhunter. Skull of Gul'dan is 6 mana, and while there is a world where its too slow for aggro (viper notoriously avoids it like the plague before the the third nerf), the effect is just too strong to ignore. This is not replicated in big dhunters, for reasons stated.
So the best way forward is to create more cards that guarantees outcast in a way like Sightless Watcher, and to design it in such a way that it doesn't draw cards or deal direct damage. For the time being (until team5 decides to create the dhunter core classic set from the bunch of cards now), my opinion is that outcast should only have defensive, not offensive effects.
I can't say I agree entirely that the class was well designed. Its not like team5 needed reminders on how oppressive an aggro deck can get when its supplied with plenty of draw cards AND cheap tempo cards to boot. The nerfs/changes were timely, but corrective, after it was apparent that nothing else could match dhunters in its first iteration. The outcast mech, while interesting, means that the class can never be anything more than a deck that plays cheap cards (big dhunters are a good example. You'd play Sightless Watcher just to guarantee outcast effects). I look forward to them printing cards to guarantee outcast effects, or something to smooth out the problems when playing greedy decks.
That said, its all in the past now. Fundamentally dhunters are in a better spot in standard (its still broken in wild) than it has ever been. I agree that the other classes kinda got screwed with a weaker core set, but that's exactly what I think team5 should be working on instead of constant nerfs to dhunters.
Shadowhoof Slayer's a better card than it appears to be, especially since Twin Slice is no longer 0 mana. If the meta turns to aggro then I expect more of this card.
Ur'zul Horror is just bad. Put this down, it dies to a hp, and it messes up with your outcast cards. Had this been a battlecry it would have been a niche if only as fodder for Altruis the Outcast. But as it stands, in wild [Hearthstone Card (firefly) Not Found] is infinitely better and in standard there's just better 1 drops than this card.
Feast of Souls is just a good card being screwed by better cards. Notably, to use this properly you'd run a token deck, and token dhunters happens to suck a lot. It also competes badly with Skull of Gul'dan and is a conditional card unlike Spectral Sight. But if token ever gets a leg up, then this card will naturally get a second look.
Soul Split is not bad, its just not covering anything at the moment. There's no deathrattle demons worth this card's attention, and most big demons in dhunter are expensive and there's no value in copying them. Had this card been, give the minion deathrattle: resummon this, this card might have seen better usage.
Lastly, Fel Summoner. Don't let the stats fool you, this card's great because it does something no other card in dhunters do, and that's providing board clear insurance against classes like priest, mage and warlock. That it has 8 attack means unlike Possessed Lackey it can't be just ignored on board, and if it pulls out a Pit Commander its just game over against certain classes. If the win rate is low, that's likely because big dhunters aren't very good, and it costs 6 mana. But if big dhunters gets anywhere in the next expansion, this card will certainly be part of its core.
At least the Arrana package comes with 20 AoO packs, which is probably a good enough deal on its own. So happens they throw in a new skin, though in my opinion, Illidan's just too iconic to put aside for Aranna.
It would be if you knew what cards he got. But in hearthstone this is not the case.
You just can't play around everything, especially with priest since they normally outvalue your deck so its on you to be proactive. You just can't sit and play around a tiny chance of a very specific card they got from your deck.
I like your suggestion to the change in stats, except Battlefiend. I think as a 1/2 its already pretty weak, especially since Twin Slice is no longer 0 mana.
On the illidari bodies buffing, it all depends on what the activator is and how much mana. If its 2 mana to give a +1+1 then its still within acceptable ranges for me even if it gets thrown into tempo dhunters. There's only like 2 cards that generate those illidari initiates right now, and both rather suck in tempo dhunters anyway.
I just wanted some big payoff for token dhunters. Perhaps even a 4/4, 7 mana that reduces with every dead opposing minion. Either way, token feels really bad right now, and that's largely because of poor tempo. Giving these specific tokens +1+1 will give it a boost, but hardly game breaking.
Just over 2 years ago we would be lucky to get 2 balance patches in one expansion, but this is would be the fifth balance patch for hearthstone within 3 months and possibly the most we would have ever got so far in hearthstone history.
So here's some of my views;
- Dragonqueen Alexstrasza and Zephrys the Great are powerful cards for building and playing your deck in a specific way and I honestly dont think they need to be changed or nerfed. Maybe Zephrys itself has too fair a statline so its still basically a tempo play at 2 without the effect. Maybe make him a 1/2 instead? Dragonqueen is perfect the way she is now. There aren't many dragons with taunt and outside of that only Alexstrasza, Nozari and Amber Watcher can give you a breather so you can never just jam dragonqueen and expect 100% to live the next turn out.
- Dragoncaster isn't the real problem here, nor is playing Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron on 6. The real problem is the RNG nature of casino mage that turns something mildly interesting into an offensive soup when your deck's win condition is basically that. In fact, I'd go so far to say that The Amazing Reno is the worst offender of this. You can be on top until he brings out a Twisting Nether out of nowhere and suddenly your opponent got a free board reset and 10 mana to rebuild it. If anything, at very least puzzlebox ends his turn and gives you the right to rebuild first.
So what to do? For god sakes just print better cards for mage and stop all that RNG nonsense that made the term casino mage an actual archetype. Solarian Prime is how you make RNG good, not The Amazing Reno. Im actually offended that amazing reno didn't even get a mention for a change here, because Im absolutely convinced his random spells should take place at the end of the turn than the start.
- Even before this identity crap, I never once felt it made any class special because they kept getting cards from the nether. But it does annoy me to no end whenever mage gets a free ride from a randomly generated spell, while I stare at defeat even when Im doing everything right up to that point. Priest has the same problem, and its even worse since most of their cards generate cards so from one card to another they can keep that train going, and since none of those generated cards are revealed its never possible to play around any of them. Libram paladin vs galakrond priest is possibly the most annoying in living memory since its actually very possible for them to just get your win condition well before you get them yourself. And in priest mirrors, well, I had the pleasure of witnessing this in an actual tournament, and found it to suck. Alot.
- So less RNG in the next expansion. Yes please. I dont have anything against RNG effects and see them as necessary to keep things interesting, but when it get to the point that wins and losses depend solely on whose offering to RNjesus is better then that's when alarm bells ought to be ringing loudest.
- Galakrond giving out 0 mana cards is actually fine to me. At least in rogue, when most cards are cheap anyway, the 0 costed cards can mean anything from getting Flik Skyshiv at 0 to things like Praise Galakrond!. To properly balance galakrond rogue, just balance the invoke cards. Seal fate for example should deal 2 damage, and the early tempo loss from that can mean a hell lot more than four 0 cost cards. Rogue also has less healing options and can be generally taken down simply by playing on curve. If anything, I'd say giving that 5/2 weapon to fully invoked galakrond is even worse than the 0 mana cards.
Also, lets not compare this to Skull of Gul'dan. Skull is a card being played on an aggro deck, requires no invoke cards prior to it being played, and its only downside is you'd have to maneuver and get it outcasted to get your effect. And the effect is game winning. 2 mana Glaivebound Adept, or even at very worse, 3 damage fodder for Altruis the Outcast. Which is the more offensive? my vote goes to skull.
if we were to believe that the good side won is canon then all 4 of EVIL are dead.
But there's always some way to contrive their survival. Good guys always win, but bad guys never die.
Yeah its fire festival stuff. If you greet using other heroes (including galakrond) you'll get something relating to fire festivals or fireworks.
Okay, so we're near the end of the AoO expansion with one month left to go, and the next expansion will very likely be announced after the felfire festival, so let's have a look at demon hunter as a class throughout its introduction.
Identity
What the class was imagined to be was, aggressively stated minions, with powerful card draw options, and clears minions using the hero via weapons etc. Its weak to board clears, have weak card generation, and supposedly big minions.
Meta Tier Performance
This needs no mention. Dhunters are currently at the top of the tier in both standard and wild, and it used to be top in arena as well until it was taken down. Suffice to say if you crafted Kayn Sunfury, Warglaives of Azzinoth, and Metamorphosis you'll not be left disappointed throughout this expansion.
Admitably, its no longer so easy to play as dhunter, at least in standard. There's plenty of counters and with a third round of nerf/change, dhunters are actually only barely on top of standard. But if ranking up is your game, then dhunters are easy picks. Even amid nerfs, changes, counters and predictability, the deck can still win with multiple options for burst and tempo.
Variety of decks in Demon Hunter Class
There's currently five archetypes of varied viability other than tempo: control, highlander, big demons, combo and token. That's a lot considering that they have the least number of cards between the classes.
Control dhunter (introduced by pro hearthstone player Eddie) is surprisingly good. In the current meta, there's just not enough healing so this deck practically kills you using nothing but Warglaives of Azzinoth + Metamorphosis. Reload via Hoard Pillager and Vulpera Scoundrel. Its actually insane how much damage you can put down with only those two cards, not even mentioning Magtheridon and Zephrys the Great. The deck preys on druids, aggro-tempo decks, mages, priest and rogues on a good day.
Highlander lacks consistency but is far from unplayable. I personally don't like the deck, and have only played limited amounts of it even in its heyday. Cant comment much, but I dont recall ever losing a match to highlander dhunters.
Big dhunter is perhaps the most interesting. Its actually not half bad, but suffers from lack of value. Pit Commander is absolutely insane, as is Coilfang Warlord. Unfortunately, the deck lacks reload, and since all Galakrond decks basically out values it, its hard to play this deck without an overwhelming sense of being screwed.
Combo dhunters are dead, basically. With Twin Slice no longer at 0 mana, you can't activate [Hearthstone Card (kael'thas) Not Found] to do that massive 20 + damage anymore. Ironically now we all got our golden kael'thas, the card is no longer relevant in standard.
Token never got off and as it stands its not going anywhere. More than any other archetype for this class, I've experimented with token dhunters to no success worth mentioning. Wrathscale Naga is excellent, but because theres no way to consistently manipulate all the 3 damage to face, the combo isnt worth preparing for. Not to mention that token dhunters can't maintain much tempo and doesnt have available the burst damage needed even if they somehow manages to stick a board.
Has the class been a net positive to hearthstone as a game?
Fans have been clamoring for a new class ever since KotFT when everyone thought death knights would make an excellent class. They've got their wish, but perhaps not in the way they hoped. The class dominated so much in its early days that opinions on dhunters as a class cannot be anything less than scornful (at least from what I've seen in both this and hearthpwn forums/comments), both at how it was designed to be OP from the start, and the multiple nerfs it had to endure, including an early nerf coming 2 weeks after the expansion started (and announced a week after it started)
I'm of the opinion that unless the next expansion quickly introduces some better taunts and healing options, the class as it stands now is not a net positive for the game. That is mostly not because the class itself is problematic, but because tempo dhunters is messing around the way how an aggro deck should theoretically work like, and the available counters to it.
The basic gameplan of an aggro deck is to pump everything in the early turns to get them to lethal range before it eventually gets outvalued around turn 5 and above, while the opponent (if not an aggro deck itself) actively removes the board as efficiently as possible, stabilizes and present a counter board for lethal. If the aggro deck is able to continuously and consistently reload, i.e. zoolock via hp, aggro rogue, and now tempo dhunter, then clearing board is no longer efficient, and the way out now is to race while staying out of lethal range.
The problem currently: There's not enough good early game taunts. And with the identity thing that team5 is subjecting the classes to means that healing options are limited. In other words, you cannot have an aggro class with an aggressive draw engine without also providing decent (but not overpowered) counter options for midrange-control decks. Unsurprisingly, the only decks that competently counters tempo dhunters are warrior, and quest warlock.
Also, aggro deck mirrors used to be a battle of efficiency, planning and tempo. Now its just about playing around Warglaives of Azzinoth, with some traditional aggro decks (primarily murlocs and token) having absolutely no counter to how warglaives work.
This is basically what aggro rogue used to be (in the early days of RoS). Raiding Party at 3 mana and un-nerf prep was the skull of its time, and its late game burst with leeroy + [Hearthstone Card (wagglepick) Not Found] is comparable to Metamorphosis finisher turns. That deck was promptly nerfed, with many players expressing their disapproval with aggro rogue's dominance and gameplan. What made it bad then but acceptable now in dhunter?
Ironically, tempo dhunters are so efficient that its nearly impossible to consider any other archetypes in the same class. So this one archetype is not only screwing everyone but warrior, its also screwing itself.
What Next?
I don't necessarily think nerfing the class for any further should be warranted. As much as I think tempo dhunters is not healthy for hearthstone, a fourth change/nerf will be ridiculous, especially with an expansion incoming in a months time. I will list down what I personally think team5 should consider in the forthcoming expansion.
- No more new direct damage dealing spells or minions for dhunter class.
- Better early game taunts. Honestly just bring back Tar Creeper. I'd even go so far as to suggest that Wax Elemental would be a good fit for the current meta.
- A better replacement for Earthen Ring Farseer. nearly everthing in classic got powercrept, why not this one? a 3 mana 2/4 taunt that heals only face for 3 is a somewhat good card against aggro. Would also give Frozen Shadoweaver a run for her money.
- Late game value cards for dhunter class. Best still if its a demon. Maybe a 7 mana 4/4, summon a random demon at the end of your turn.
- Something to help out tempo in token dhunter. Maybe a 1 mana 1/2, give your illidari initiates +1+1. Or something like Goru the Mightree for illidari initiates.
What do you guys think about demon hunters as a class, and what future can we look forward to, with the forthcoming expansion in mind?
Needs to be 10 of the same packs.
So you dont reach any of that 10 packs 1 legendary pity timer if you open 9 packs of different expansions.
Maybe the new game mode would be the fabled 'limited wild' mode where they rotate the standard there within 3-6 expansions throughout hearthstone history. Would be a decent way to attract the older players to come back, and would be less daunting than wild itself. It would also be a lot easier to balance, and encourages players to buy old packs.
As for the expansion incoming, I wouldn't be too surprised if it only happens to be purple, but otherwise unrelated to traditional purple related stuff in WoW. Boomsday was, if Im not mistaken, completely unrelated to the void and yet manages to get in on the same purple theme. Also, its likely that the expansion would be less serious and more lighthearted. We already had the 'serious' expansion in AoO, so the other 2 will likely be more silly.
mostly because elise has access to the most overpowered weapon in the game. Elise's Machete practically seals games all on its own.
Either the cards are completely different from standard, and/or they change the hero powers completely. I can't imagine team5 balancing the entire sets of expansions just to fit in this dual-class concept.
Not that Im complaining if it turns out that way, just trying to imagine every tier 1 deck being something + dhunters.
Even when hearthstone was at its lowest and I wasn't feeling it I still finish up my quests. Takes about half hour to finish 3 quests, assuming youre okay with taking deliberate losses.
I get what you're saying, but the real question is how long a break are you planning? The sunken cost effect is perhaps only really relevant to those planning and failing to take breaks the size of an expansion, which is roughly 3 months. If you mean youre getting that feeling that you need to play hearthstone everyday to maximize value, you can easily just stop for 2 days and come back the third day, finish up your quests, and lose no value at all.
I dont think dhunters are currently a problem. If nothing else its at least predictable.
Other decks like highlander mage barely win without some rng involved (via The Amazing Reno, in which is probably the single most high rolling card in the game). Still others are even worse like galakrond priest, which effectively have no win condition other than grabbing yours. And druid probably seals the deal with ramp AND swarming cards that more or less means you either remove their board or die the next turn.
Between dhunters and the decks named above, I'd think dhunters are the lesser of the two evils. The number of times I'd just lose my game because of a reno highroll, or thoughtsteal highroll, or just plain destroyed because my opponent has effectively 4 mana ramp over mine, I'd sleep better knowing that dhunters at very least played genuinely good cards rather than rng themselves a win out of nowhere.
we should be getting the announcement for the announcement right after the felfire festival. Wouldnt surprised me if the new cards start streaming in around 15th July.
Patron warrior (prior to Warsong Commander nerf) and now egg/enrage warrior is probably the hardest to play in their time.
- Its a combo deck that relies on very specific cards, but with no strict requirement for the win (you can still do very well with Warsong Commander + Frothing Berserker) so players have to both rely on information currently at hand and possible draws in the future. Not exactly easy stuff
- The deck at its best requires the player to understand the amount of damage possible currently, and what specific card can give them lethal in the next few turns. So do you swing your Death's Bite for that 4 damage to face, or hold on for patron? Do you swing now, or later? you also have to account for ooze, which can easily scupper your plans. What if there are multiple taunts? etc.
- At that time, there were some disruption cards that can easily block patron warrior like Loatheb. Also, the deck didn't exactly have the best board clears at that time so it cannot simply ignore board like how the current egg warrior has with armorsmith + risky skipper.
- Unlike other combo decks, patron and egg warrior's combo rely on damaging their own minions, so misplays are honestly very common.
- Like APM priest, this deck plays lots of cards for the win. Unlike APM priest, the damage output is finite. So you can easily dump all your cards with no straight forward guarantee for the win, and even if you do, one mistake is all it takes to complete belly up the game. APM priest has a specific sequence which means its easily memorized, patron/egg warrior does not.
Have a look into youtube. One of the notable matches I can remember was lifecoach vs trump (yes its more well known for that roping meme) Undoubtedly there are better matches, but I can't recall the exact names of the players.
Turn 1, see druid opponent with some weird hp.
"deal 3 damage to an enemy or heal friendlies for 3" for 0 mana, and he can do it twice.
Me. Deal 2 damage to yourself and summon an imp.
Concede turn 1.
And this, I'm led to believe, is the norm with increasingly stupid hero powers as you move upwards. Wouldn't know. I got my pack and got out while I still held my sanity.
Wish the quests actually understands that I had no chance from turn 1 so I can at very least concede and finish it up.