MalcolmReynolds pretty much beat me to it. Shuffling non-advantageous duplicates into the opponent's deck is fine, but not allowing the opponent to draw is extremely powerful, but since HS doesn't have this mechanic most HS players don't realize how powerful that mechanic is. In Yu-Gi-Oh cards that denied card draw (notably Yata-Garasu) were banned because the mechanic basically ensures that if you have a bad turn before you were denied the card draw then you're automatically ensured you're going to have another bad turn because you have no access to any extra resources that following turn, which means when denied draw you're unlikely to catch up to what was essentially an extra turn for your opponent.
Good thing the discover change was made AFTER it was relevant back in the day of Stonehill Defender automatically discovering 1-2 Tarims/Tirions 90% of the time it was played in pally.
Unfortunately T5 has very narrow minded views of class identity, even when that identity doesn't mirror what the class looks like in WoW, to the point where they would never be that innovative.
The question that should be asked I think is if these alternate hero powers would only favor control and midrange playstyles. Yes there was the big fear over aggro getting alternate hero powers due to Genn/Baku, but these new hero powers would only benefit one or two playstyles then I feel that it would warp the 'holy trinity' of aggro/midrange/control too much towards the slower decks.
Allowing all classes to collect and use the other basic hero powers would be an enormous balance headache and would also lead to dozens of additional card nerfs for cards that aren't an issue.
Plus chances are they would dump all of the hero powers into the laps of warlock, mage, priest, and warrior with only a wink and a nod for card nerfs while eviscerating (pun intended) the class cards of classes like rogue, druid, or shaman. Zomg can't let rogues get tempo or face hero powers without nerfs, but by all means warriors, priests, and mages with life tap? Psh, favored classes will be favored classes. Can't have too much control power creep.
Casual Mode - Netdecks are banned. Gold is not rewarded. Quests cannot be completed. This is purely just for fun mode.
The thing with this is that net decks are fluid. You ban a bunch of cards and net decks move down the list. When do you draw the line and stop banning any form of deck shared on the internet?
Also, fun meme decks have just as much potential to become 'meme netdecks' if they gain enough fun traction. In that sense such a format would become a double edged sword because then you'd start pruning out inconsistent, yet popular memes, straight out of the format because they potentially get net decked.
How about 20 shared cards as a deck in tier 1 or tier 2 according to VS? Or how about Blizzard publish their own tier list?
Why do you hate fun so much? Specifically, why are you so against ME having fun? You've done that consistently on Hearthpwn and now you're doing it here.
I'm all for fun. I can screenshot the 18 decks I'm currently using in HS if you'd like for proof of that, but you can't have a format that bans net decks even in a highly optimistic world. Even fun decks get net decked. The thing is people generally feel less bad playing against them because they aren't typically consistent so they feel less oppressive, but they still are actual net decks. Tesspionage Rogue is a great example of this. It started off as a fun semi-meme deck and look at how many people started playing it. So ironically a format that bans net decking would actually discourage players from sharing fun decks because if said decks caught on too well they would become what I said in my last post ("meme netdecks") and automatically get banned out of their own format for being copy pasta'ed. That would be counterintuitive to a 'non-netdeck format'
Casual Mode - Netdecks are banned. Gold is not rewarded. Quests cannot be completed. This is purely just for fun mode.
The thing with this is that net decks are fluid. You ban a bunch of cards and net decks move down the list. When do you draw the line and stop banning any form of deck shared on the internet?
Also, fun meme decks have just as much potential to become 'meme netdecks' if they gain enough fun traction. In that sense such a format would become a double edged sword because then you'd start pruning out inconsistent, yet popular memes, straight out of the format because they potentially get net decked.
When 2.5k armor druid started popping up in wild with the new cards, but the opponent failed to realize I was playing Ice Cream Shaman until it was too late ;)
Over an hour later and the new feared Uldum deck wasn't looking so hot against a shaman with over 4k armor <3
2.5k armor? No problem! Waste your opponent's time for over an hour until they d/c due to lag or quit out of boredom hehehe.
with all the talk of nerfing broken bullshit cards, why does no one every bring up scavenging hyena? the more rush beasts that exist, the more broken this card is.
I actually think hyena is pretty balanced. You sacrifice card advantage to buff it up and one silence, transform, or hard single target removal can punish the play. If the opponent doesn't have that then the resource commitment pays off for the hunter.
N'Zoth all of the way. It is still my go to build around for most drawn out late game OTK decks due to being able to represent massive stall/distraction with sludge belchers and applebaums while assembling my combo (which is excellent for classes in wild that lack nearly as many, if any at all, class heals/survivability).
Although, I still will always love my N'Thun Reno Rogue deck that I've had since WotOGs.
Well, the nerfs lead to a more agressive meta for sure. But quest shaman and druid became viable! Expect counterdecks to aggro in the coming weeks.
Until people start whining for those to get nerfed too. Point me to a meta where players are for once damn happy with what they have in the moment and I'll show you a HS community where the players have finally matured instead finding something to complain about non stop in the meta
It gets dumped on by most consistent aggro decks. If a deck can be destroyed by one of the main playstyles then I generally don't think it is too much of a problem.
On a side note I'm not sure why these kinds of discussions seem to naturally pop up when the top decks are all getting nerfed. Do people want every established deck nerfed all at once because they're bored with the meta?
I would also add some form of extra wild format (I'm generally bad with names :P) where it is the same thing as wild, but with all prenerfed cards post beta. In order for it to not be abused by the same 5 decks with abandon just remove ranked from the equation in such a format. Still annoyed Grim Patron Warrior can't be a thing in wild when the deck would be MUCH weaker due to Voidcaller/Skull into early Voidlords, Gul'Dan and instant taunt walls, the new 3 damage mage secret, druid's plague, etc being very adequate deterrents to the deck in 2019.
Silly Control Warrior, with maybe Mecha'thun alt win condition? (they had a lot of cycling) still couldn't beat my slightly altered Reno Dragon combo priest in brawl. Didn't help I discovered their Dr. Boom and played it one turn earlier than them (due to a Thaurassan tick), plus got a rezzed Thaurassan again from my Kazakus potion (fueling my Anduin + Spawn of Shadows burn a handful of turns later.
More control warriors should auto paste their decks into this brawl. Bring on the free wins ;)
Hope all of the vanilla hunters enjoy the return of the completely illogical dead zone in pvp. Nothing like a mage frost novaing you in place during WSG and /dancing while you can neither hit them with your melee weapon or shoot them with your bow/gun.
Good old classic bad class design.
Not to mention the return of twinks 1-2 shotting you until you finally hit level cap and are done with the garbage.
"You may think you are a shadow priest, but you'll be the guy that always heals!"
Vanilla WoW is extremely overhyped imo. The tinted glasses and amount of players that never experienced the cons of the initial installment firsthand abound everywhere.
If you use a net deck, or simply a common general archtype that may or may not be altered by you, it means the strats behind the deck is well known to thousands of players. On top of that if the deck you're using also tends to be consistent then chances are extremely high that there are thousands more other players trying to take advantage of the meta and prey on your deck. When you take that into consideration surrounding matchmaking it really is not all that unlikely you will run into one of your bad match-ups frequently (such as a win away from a new rank floor/benchmark).
No conspiracies, merely thousands of players countering thousands of other players simultaneously.
Seems pretty bizarre that once priest finally got a non dragon/non SS actual aggro(ish) deck that it gets nerfed while in the past paladin/warlock/warrior got to use aggressive strategies for significantly longer before ever getting nerfs (and even then some of those classes did not always get deck crippling nerfs for their respective decks in some of their respective metas).
Wow you guys are too serious. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Yes, there have been times I've rooted for the other person. If I wanted to watch the same deck over and over again I'd watch a try hard streamer climbing legend/ladder.
I feel it should be pointed out that obviously Zilliax is a neutral and with neutral minions you run that delicate balance between good or decent and ran in most decks and just not cutting it, resulting in it not being played in almost any decks.
Also keep it mind Zilliax makes classes with little to no class healing to be a more bearable match-up against aggro decks. Do we want aggro more painful to queue into?
MalcolmReynolds pretty much beat me to it. Shuffling non-advantageous duplicates into the opponent's deck is fine, but not allowing the opponent to draw is extremely powerful, but since HS doesn't have this mechanic most HS players don't realize how powerful that mechanic is. In Yu-Gi-Oh cards that denied card draw (notably Yata-Garasu) were banned because the mechanic basically ensures that if you have a bad turn before you were denied the card draw then you're automatically ensured you're going to have another bad turn because you have no access to any extra resources that following turn, which means when denied draw you're unlikely to catch up to what was essentially an extra turn for your opponent.
Good thing the discover change was made AFTER it was relevant back in the day of Stonehill Defender automatically discovering 1-2 Tarims/Tirions 90% of the time it was played in pally.
/facepalm
I'd be all for the idea.
Unfortunately T5 has very narrow minded views of class identity, even when that identity doesn't mirror what the class looks like in WoW, to the point where they would never be that innovative.
The question that should be asked I think is if these alternate hero powers would only favor control and midrange playstyles. Yes there was the big fear over aggro getting alternate hero powers due to Genn/Baku, but these new hero powers would only benefit one or two playstyles then I feel that it would warp the 'holy trinity' of aggro/midrange/control too much towards the slower decks.
Allowing all classes to collect and use the other basic hero powers would be an enormous balance headache and would also lead to dozens of additional card nerfs for cards that aren't an issue.
Plus chances are they would dump all of the hero powers into the laps of warlock, mage, priest, and warrior with only a wink and a nod for card nerfs while eviscerating (pun intended) the class cards of classes like rogue, druid, or shaman. Zomg can't let rogues get tempo or face hero powers without nerfs, but by all means warriors, priests, and mages with life tap? Psh, favored classes will be favored classes. Can't have too much control power creep.
I'm all for fun. I can screenshot the 18 decks I'm currently using in HS if you'd like for proof of that, but you can't have a format that bans net decks even in a highly optimistic world. Even fun decks get net decked. The thing is people generally feel less bad playing against them because they aren't typically consistent so they feel less oppressive, but they still are actual net decks. Tesspionage Rogue is a great example of this. It started off as a fun semi-meme deck and look at how many people started playing it. So ironically a format that bans net decking would actually discourage players from sharing fun decks because if said decks caught on too well they would become what I said in my last post ("meme netdecks") and automatically get banned out of their own format for being copy pasta'ed. That would be counterintuitive to a 'non-netdeck format'
Also #funissubjective
The thing with this is that net decks are fluid. You ban a bunch of cards and net decks move down the list. When do you draw the line and stop banning any form of deck shared on the internet?
Also, fun meme decks have just as much potential to become 'meme netdecks' if they gain enough fun traction. In that sense such a format would become a double edged sword because then you'd start pruning out inconsistent, yet popular memes, straight out of the format because they potentially get net decked.
Favorite Uldum moment so far?
When 2.5k armor druid started popping up in wild with the new cards, but the opponent failed to realize I was playing Ice Cream Shaman until it was too late ;)
Over an hour later and the new feared Uldum deck wasn't looking so hot against a shaman with over 4k armor <3
2.5k armor? No problem! Waste your opponent's time for over an hour until they d/c due to lag or quit out of boredom hehehe.
I actually think hyena is pretty balanced. You sacrifice card advantage to buff it up and one silence, transform, or hard single target removal can punish the play. If the opponent doesn't have that then the resource commitment pays off for the hunter.
N'Zoth all of the way. It is still my go to build around for most drawn out late game OTK decks due to being able to represent massive stall/distraction with sludge belchers and applebaums while assembling my combo (which is excellent for classes in wild that lack nearly as many, if any at all, class heals/survivability).
Although, I still will always love my N'Thun Reno Rogue deck that I've had since WotOGs.
Until people start whining for those to get nerfed too. Point me to a meta where players are for once damn happy with what they have in the moment and I'll show you a HS community where the players have finally matured instead finding something to complain about non stop in the meta
It gets dumped on by most consistent aggro decks. If a deck can be destroyed by one of the main playstyles then I generally don't think it is too much of a problem.
On a side note I'm not sure why these kinds of discussions seem to naturally pop up when the top decks are all getting nerfed. Do people want every established deck nerfed all at once because they're bored with the meta?
I would also add some form of extra wild format (I'm generally bad with names :P) where it is the same thing as wild, but with all prenerfed cards post beta. In order for it to not be abused by the same 5 decks with abandon just remove ranked from the equation in such a format. Still annoyed Grim Patron Warrior can't be a thing in wild when the deck would be MUCH weaker due to Voidcaller/Skull into early Voidlords, Gul'Dan and instant taunt walls, the new 3 damage mage secret, druid's plague, etc being very adequate deterrents to the deck in 2019.
Silly Control Warrior, with maybe Mecha'thun alt win condition? (they had a lot of cycling) still couldn't beat my slightly altered Reno Dragon combo priest in brawl. Didn't help I discovered their Dr. Boom and played it one turn earlier than them (due to a Thaurassan tick), plus got a rezzed Thaurassan again from my Kazakus potion (fueling my Anduin + Spawn of Shadows burn a handful of turns later.
More control warriors should auto paste their decks into this brawl. Bring on the free wins ;)
Hope all of the vanilla hunters enjoy the return of the completely illogical dead zone in pvp. Nothing like a mage frost novaing you in place during WSG and /dancing while you can neither hit them with your melee weapon or shoot them with your bow/gun.
Good old classic bad class design.
Not to mention the return of twinks 1-2 shotting you until you finally hit level cap and are done with the garbage.
"You may think you are a shadow priest, but you'll be the guy that always heals!"
Vanilla WoW is extremely overhyped imo. The tinted glasses and amount of players that never experienced the cons of the initial installment firsthand abound everywhere.
If you use a net deck, or simply a common general archtype that may or may not be altered by you, it means the strats behind the deck is well known to thousands of players. On top of that if the deck you're using also tends to be consistent then chances are extremely high that there are thousands more other players trying to take advantage of the meta and prey on your deck. When you take that into consideration surrounding matchmaking it really is not all that unlikely you will run into one of your bad match-ups frequently (such as a win away from a new rank floor/benchmark).
No conspiracies, merely thousands of players countering thousands of other players simultaneously.
Seems pretty bizarre that once priest finally got a non dragon/non SS actual aggro(ish) deck that it gets nerfed while in the past paladin/warlock/warrior got to use aggressive strategies for significantly longer before ever getting nerfs (and even then some of those classes did not always get deck crippling nerfs for their respective decks in some of their respective metas).
Wow you guys are too serious. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Yes, there have been times I've rooted for the other person. If I wanted to watch the same deck over and over again I'd watch a try hard streamer climbing legend/ladder.
I feel it should be pointed out that obviously Zilliax is a neutral and with neutral minions you run that delicate balance between good or decent and ran in most decks and just not cutting it, resulting in it not being played in almost any decks.
Also keep it mind Zilliax makes classes with little to no class healing to be a more bearable match-up against aggro decks. Do we want aggro more painful to queue into?