Instant 'Dane Rogue' Youtube highlight video with Shadowcaster.
My question is how long til rogue gets all of its new cards nerfed all over again because let's face it rogues aren't allowed to have a non-nerfed deck in any playstyle.
Wild is getting a lot of new tools this expansion. Which is great since RoS barely did anything to the Wild meta.
Eh. In wild I don't really see many Anyfin Palain players using this since the deck can already directly tutor their combo pieces from the deck for cheaper than 8 mana (with a minion to boot), plus if you draw poorly this potentially becomes an 8 mana summon 0-2 murlocs from your deck.
Regular Murloc Paladin could be okayish using 1 copy of this spell, but until you get to the late game (which may suggest the paladin player has lost that late in the game anyway) it clogs up the payoff for Divine Favor and curving out your minions before turn 8.
I'm sure it will get some play, but I don't expect it to be came breaking by any means.
I see this all of these complaints about Genn & Baku in wild but I honestly don't see it. With the exception of Odd Pally I really don't see many Genn/Baku decks on wild ladder and Odd Pally counters Big Priest (which is very complained about) so I fail to see why the playstyles need a nerf.
Plus many of the Genn/Baku decks don't even see play at all. Point me in the direct of Odd Warlock, Even Mage, Odd Priest, Even Priest, Even Rogue, Even Druid, Odd Druid, Odd Shaman, Even Hunter, Odd Hunter, Even Warrior, or Even Pally. They are almost non-existent in wild.
That's 12 out of a total 18 Genn/Baku decks that see almost no play in wild. That's not indicative that the playstyle is as big of a problem as people like to suggest. Plus, these decks have to compete against Reno & Dks for the late game.
Odd paladin, odd rogue and even shaman are the strongest decks in wild. Odd warrior would be up there as well if it wasn't for big priest. And this will most likely stay this way forever until Blizzard oversees another broken combo like they did in the past (Naga Sea Witch buff/Juicy Psychmelon paired with Star Aligner and the standard druid combo).The consistency of those hero powers cannot be matched.
You don't see those other odd and even decks (minus a few) because their hero powers don't benefit as much from being upgraded nor is there a deck that syngerizes well enough with it. That doesn't mean it excuses Genn and Baku from being busted though.
Dark Pact was never an issue in zoolock either, because the deck doesn't gain anything from it. That doesn't mean the card didn't deserve a nerf. The thing with reno and death knights is that those need to be drawn first, and can only be played from turn 6 onwards. They're value bombs, not consistency bombs. That's a big difference.
Don't even get me started on how one-dimensional it is to play with and against those decks.
Strong doesn't equal broken. You have to have tier 1 decks. If it wasn't Odd Pally it would need to be something else. Tier 0 is what is concerning. Odd Pally, Even Shaman, Odd Rogue still are not warping the entire meta like Giant Lock, Giant Hunter, & SA Druid did, there are obvious counters. The point is that not everyone plays those counters, or the counters are countered by a different deck in the meta so again players don't use them.
For example, I get my first legend (really first time past rank 5 even) with Reno Dragon Priest the season just before the Even Shaman nerf. On the meta snapshot Reno Priest was marked as one of the tier 1 decks (although now it is nowhere to be seen on any tier for some odd reason). I was able to very quickly take myself from being stuck at rank 3 clear up to legend. Want to know my easiest match-up during the grind? Even Shaman (pre nerf). Having a bunch of midrange & late game board clears, along with midrange minions and late game burn easily carried me against one of the "strongest decks in the game". I will admit Odd Pally was still strong due to their persistent staying power and Odd Rogue was 50/50, but I'm bringing this up because there are counters for the decks. Don't allow a tier list to tell you what can or can't beat the meta.
One-dimensionality shouldn't play a role in balance design in most cases. I for one find decks like Reno Lock or Reno Mage just as one dimensional as decks like Even Shaman or Odd Rogue. The more you play a deck the more auto-pilot it becomes due to the skill and familiarity you get with said deck(s).
Please stop playing OTK decks! I just got a Paladin down to 5 health and I was at 25. They play whatever the F that card is to draw Shirvallah, the Tiger and deal 25 damange. FU! Sometimes I really don't understand why I play this game. Part of me wants to blame Blizzard for putting those types of mechanics in the game but it's the people that plays them.
Personally I love playing OTK decks. One reason is because all of the other aggro & control decks are exactly the same deck that everyone is playing and almost always have obvious plays. I feel it gets boring playing decks and playstyles that are so scripted
I see this all of these complaints about Genn & Baku in wild but I honestly don't see it. With the exception of Odd Pally I really don't see many Genn/Baku decks on wild ladder and Odd Pally counters Big Priest (which is very complained about) so I fail to see why the playstyles need a nerf.
You forgot Even Shaman which is still a top tier deck. That aside, the issue is more that Odd Paladin goes beyond being a counter to Big Priest - it has consistently been a tier 1 deck with few unfavorable matchups for a whole mess of seasons now. No one King should rule forever, et cetera.
That aside I do agree that the functionality of Baku & Genn should be changed to something different. So it is useful for more than just balls out aggro lists, preferably.
Remember that this is wild we are talking about. The entire purpose of the format is fundamentally different than that of standard. Standard more or less is supposed to nerf decks so that they aren't played anymore while wild is an eternal card format. With some Tier 0 exceptions that literally warp the entire meta decks are meant to be combated by introducing new synergies.
As for new king ruling forever how do you explain the existence of Reno Lock, Jade Druid, Big Priest, Mill Rogue, and to some extents Reno Mage, Non-Reno Control Lock, Cubelock, or even Smorc Shaman? All of these decks have ebbed and flowed in wild but are very consistent reoccurring decks. It seems odd (pun intended) to single out Odd Pally knowing that plenty of top notch decks have thrived in wild for years (Bear in mind going by what I said in the first part of the post up above I am generally not in favor of most nerfs).
We can't be taking a standard format approach/lens and using it to make design decisions for the wild format.
There are plenty of combos that actually kill you in wild as opposed to just gaining a large amount of armor and they aren't nerfed. Why would this combo, which technically doesn't save you against Mecha'Thun or Uther OTKs be nerfed?
Plus, my Ice Cream Shaman laughs at this combo, just saying ;)
I see this all of these complaints about Genn & Baku in wild but I honestly don't see it. With the exception of Odd Pally I really don't see many Genn/Baku decks on wild ladder and Odd Pally counters Big Priest (which is very complained about) so I fail to see why the playstyles need a nerf.
Plus many of the Genn/Baku decks don't even see play at all. Point me in the direct of Odd Warlock, Even Mage, Odd Priest, Even Priest, Even Rogue, Even Druid, Odd Druid, Odd Shaman, Even Hunter, Odd Hunter, Even Warrior, or Even Pally. They are almost non-existent in wild.
That's 12 out of a total 18 Genn/Baku decks that see almost no play in wild. That's not indicative that the playstyle is as big of a problem as people like to suggest. Plus, these decks have to compete against Reno & Dks for the late game.
Anyone else notice the reference to the Legend of Zelda Breath of the Wild sequel reference in Making Mummies' art?
Finely with a glowing right green magical hand near an animated mummified corpse compared with the magical green energy going into Link's right hand near an animated Gannondorf(?) corpse?
I wish people would stop throwing that tired buzzword around so much, especially when it has such a subjective definition. Oh well, I'm already digressing before my post has begun... ;P
Mechs are not a problem for every class, especially in wild where answers are more plentiful. Even in standard shamans' Plague of Murlocs will absolutely wreck mechs since it answers both wide and tall mech boards.
Also I can't help but feel the underlying premise of this thread is really that aggro decks are bad for the game (which couldn't be further from the truth). Aggressive mechs like Mech Hunter help to work towards combating both Control/Bomb Warrior and Cyclone/Giant Mage. You can't have a "Holy Trinity" card game without, you know a rock-paper-scissors foundation. If the complaint about mechs is about their use in Control or Bomb Warrior I will again point towards Control Shamans that will soon be teching in at least one copy of Plague of Murlocs. And honestly, mechs use in Control Warrior isn't really a problem because of mechs in and off themselves. First of all, Dr. Boom is what gives mechs rush, not the tribe itself, second is that multiple Dyn-o-matics & Omega Devastators happens in standard because the card pool is inherently flawed due to its small size and much more consistent discovers, and third is that Omega Devastator itself is much more of a busted midrange minion when played end game. If you changed just one thing about Omega Devastator then it would be very likely that mechs themselves (from a control standpoint) would dip in effectiveness when played by warrior.
I was a semi-hardcore Yu-Gi-Oh player for many years. One thing I really enjoyed about the game was that I could switch back and forth between a banned list format and non-banned list format as I saw fit. Tired of Chaos Control? You could join an official tournament and play against other decks. Wanted to play with your friends or even have an unoffical tournament in your neighborhood rocking that nostalgic Chaos Goat Control you could do that too. Whenever you wanted to you still owned your cards and could come back to any hardcore or meme homebrew decks you put together whenever you wanted.
In HS this is not the case due to how digital card games work. You change something too drastically and you essentially do delete a card or deck from the game. Some things can only be balance tweaked before you simply break them and they no longer work anywhere close to how the synergies worked before the changes. You have no option to keep 'your' cards and play them just in private games with friends. So the thought of suggesting changing more cards in wild, or even flat out deleting cards, reeks of something no less than disgusting to me. My biggest joy about card games is being able to save cards & decks for however long you want, whether they were Tier 1 decks or sub-par 10% WR memes, and come back to enjoy them after however long of a break you took. Having a sense of real longevity in your cards created that. It also established a sense of consistency (In the sense that you could depend on your collection more or less still being there months or years down the line). Massive over-the-board pendulum nerfs or flat out card deletions strips away such a sense of consistency and for many players it would make them care about the game less. After all, if most of your favorite cards aren't even safe from complaints from bored players wanting a change even in wild, resulting in major breakings of card synergies or card deletions, then why should you care about your cards.
Grinding out gold & dust, and spending hard earned real money on cards, becomes massively less appealing if most of your cards/decks in eternal formats (which wild is supposed to be) do not stand the test of time to do frequent overhauls on what synergies are deemed worthy by vocal minority. I know I would never have switched from a f2p player to a paying supporting customer after so many years if my cards could just get deleted, banned from all formats (even wild), or turned into post nerf rofl-copter Warsong Commanders so easily.
The combo really isn't problematic. All it does is allow you a different way to combo the opponent done with a less tired combo that may require more mana than 2 turns allows.
Also consider that if you are in the position where any type of otk mage is using Time Warp against you then you already lost the game at that point anyway, regardless of whether Vargoth existed as a card or not. For example, I use a Vargoth + Time Warp for Maly OTK. However, say Vargoth was completely deleted from the game. Okay, then Quest Mages would just switch to the Antonidas or Giants + Alex combo and you'd be dead when they cast Time Warp against you anyway. The extra 3rd turn is completely cosmetic in that allows you a different combo to win with. In the end you lose to any deck when you get Time Warp cast against you.
I'm glad you're enjoying it so far! And good question!
Typically by the time you do execute your combo your deck (now your opponent's new deck) is usually a lot smaller than their deck (now your new deck, turned into the Choose Your Path spells). Many of my games have seen a 5+ card difference in fatigue so that is why my opponents usually switch back, otherwise they're guaranteed to lose the fatigue battle due to the fatigue damage.
I also really like all of these other decks this week too (Gotta love the good ole Weasel Priest 3:) & I've always wanted to get around to trying Dragon Mage).
I see old deathrattles getting nerfed because of the new mechanic, similarly to how old mechs were nerfed for magnetize. That by itself gets me to not like the mechanic.
how so?
Honestly at this point I have no idea. This is T5 we're talking about, that nerfs memes (Raging Worgen Warrior/Shadowboxer & actual tier decks alike). There is no actual predicting how they wreck cards/decks anymore. All they need to do is fabricate a reason to justify a nerf and it will be done. New mechanics are the perfect time to do this (again look at what they did when magnetize became a thing)
I see old deathrattles getting nerfed because of the new mechanic, similarly to how old mechs were nerfed for magnetize. That by itself gets me to not like the mechanic.
Honestly lack of fresh control options is what happens when the designers of the game you play insist on saying that classes like rogue, paladin, druid, etc aren't supposed to have control strategies 90% of the time. It's pretty laughable really that they designed rogue to not be a control class when in WoW rogue is the epitome of control in pvp with their various CC toolkits and stunlocks to lock healers out of the game, but hey what do I know?
Leeroy Jenkins is the first legendary I tend to go for when I'm building a new account. He's in the classic set, so he shouldn't rotate out, plus he's a mainstay in a wide range of low cost, aggro decks. Zilliax is similarly good, although he rotates out next spring.
Having said that, as others have said above, you're better to focus on the deck you want to play, then work out which cards you need for it, rather than focusing on crafting standalone cards
Whizbang the Wonderful and Zayle, Shadow Cloak are great cards if you just want to play a bunch of different decks and explore different playstyles, but they aren't really competitive and aren't the best picks if you're trying to build a collection
Well just because something is in classic doesn't mean it won't rotate out (via HoF). Remember, this is T5 we're talking about the same group that backpedaled so hard away from the concept of an evergreen set and decided to go with HoF
Summoning Portal now does not reduce cards below 1 mana when discounted by Thaurassan (it has for well over a year or more). Now it just reduces discounted cards to 1 mana if they were already at 1 mana.
Unless I'm mistaken I did not see any patch notes for this anywhere.
Instant 'Dane Rogue' Youtube highlight video with Shadowcaster.
My question is how long til rogue gets all of its new cards nerfed all over again because let's face it rogues aren't allowed to have a non-nerfed deck in any playstyle.
Eh. In wild I don't really see many Anyfin Palain players using this since the deck can already directly tutor their combo pieces from the deck for cheaper than 8 mana (with a minion to boot), plus if you draw poorly this potentially becomes an 8 mana summon 0-2 murlocs from your deck.
Regular Murloc Paladin could be okayish using 1 copy of this spell, but until you get to the late game (which may suggest the paladin player has lost that late in the game anyway) it clogs up the payoff for Divine Favor and curving out your minions before turn 8.
I'm sure it will get some play, but I don't expect it to be came breaking by any means.
They're warlock. Remember, this is the class that got Godfrey on top of Defile back in the day ;P
Strong doesn't equal broken. You have to have tier 1 decks. If it wasn't Odd Pally it would need to be something else. Tier 0 is what is concerning. Odd Pally, Even Shaman, Odd Rogue still are not warping the entire meta like Giant Lock, Giant Hunter, & SA Druid did, there are obvious counters. The point is that not everyone plays those counters, or the counters are countered by a different deck in the meta so again players don't use them.
For example, I get my first legend (really first time past rank 5 even) with Reno Dragon Priest the season just before the Even Shaman nerf. On the meta snapshot Reno Priest was marked as one of the tier 1 decks (although now it is nowhere to be seen on any tier for some odd reason). I was able to very quickly take myself from being stuck at rank 3 clear up to legend. Want to know my easiest match-up during the grind? Even Shaman (pre nerf). Having a bunch of midrange & late game board clears, along with midrange minions and late game burn easily carried me against one of the "strongest decks in the game". I will admit Odd Pally was still strong due to their persistent staying power and Odd Rogue was 50/50, but I'm bringing this up because there are counters for the decks. Don't allow a tier list to tell you what can or can't beat the meta.
One-dimensionality shouldn't play a role in balance design in most cases. I for one find decks like Reno Lock or Reno Mage just as one dimensional as decks like Even Shaman or Odd Rogue. The more you play a deck the more auto-pilot it becomes due to the skill and familiarity you get with said deck(s).
Personally I love playing OTK decks. One reason is because all of the other aggro & control decks are exactly the same deck that everyone is playing and almost always have obvious plays. I feel it gets boring playing decks and playstyles that are so scripted
Remember that this is wild we are talking about. The entire purpose of the format is fundamentally different than that of standard. Standard more or less is supposed to nerf decks so that they aren't played anymore while wild is an eternal card format. With some Tier 0 exceptions that literally warp the entire meta decks are meant to be combated by introducing new synergies.
As for new king ruling forever how do you explain the existence of Reno Lock, Jade Druid, Big Priest, Mill Rogue, and to some extents Reno Mage, Non-Reno Control Lock, Cubelock, or even Smorc Shaman? All of these decks have ebbed and flowed in wild but are very consistent reoccurring decks. It seems odd (pun intended) to single out Odd Pally knowing that plenty of top notch decks have thrived in wild for years (Bear in mind going by what I said in the first part of the post up above I am generally not in favor of most nerfs).
We can't be taking a standard format approach/lens and using it to make design decisions for the wild format.
There are plenty of combos that actually kill you in wild as opposed to just gaining a large amount of armor and they aren't nerfed. Why would this combo, which technically doesn't save you against Mecha'Thun or Uther OTKs be nerfed?
Plus, my Ice Cream Shaman laughs at this combo, just saying ;)
I see this all of these complaints about Genn & Baku in wild but I honestly don't see it. With the exception of Odd Pally I really don't see many Genn/Baku decks on wild ladder and Odd Pally counters Big Priest (which is very complained about) so I fail to see why the playstyles need a nerf.
Plus many of the Genn/Baku decks don't even see play at all. Point me in the direct of Odd Warlock, Even Mage, Odd Priest, Even Priest, Even Rogue, Even Druid, Odd Druid, Odd Shaman, Even Hunter, Odd Hunter, Even Warrior, or Even Pally. They are almost non-existent in wild.
That's 12 out of a total 18 Genn/Baku decks that see almost no play in wild. That's not indicative that the playstyle is as big of a problem as people like to suggest. Plus, these decks have to compete against Reno & Dks for the late game.
Anyone else notice the reference to the Legend of Zelda Breath of the Wild sequel reference in Making Mummies' art?
Finely with a glowing right green magical hand near an animated mummified corpse compared with the magical green energy going into Link's right hand near an animated Gannondorf(?) corpse?
I wish people would stop throwing that tired buzzword around so much, especially when it has such a subjective definition. Oh well, I'm already digressing before my post has begun... ;P
Mechs are not a problem for every class, especially in wild where answers are more plentiful. Even in standard shamans' Plague of Murlocs will absolutely wreck mechs since it answers both wide and tall mech boards.
Also I can't help but feel the underlying premise of this thread is really that aggro decks are bad for the game (which couldn't be further from the truth). Aggressive mechs like Mech Hunter help to work towards combating both Control/Bomb Warrior and Cyclone/Giant Mage. You can't have a "Holy Trinity" card game without, you know a rock-paper-scissors foundation. If the complaint about mechs is about their use in Control or Bomb Warrior I will again point towards Control Shamans that will soon be teching in at least one copy of Plague of Murlocs. And honestly, mechs use in Control Warrior isn't really a problem because of mechs in and off themselves. First of all, Dr. Boom is what gives mechs rush, not the tribe itself, second is that multiple Dyn-o-matics & Omega Devastators happens in standard because the card pool is inherently flawed due to its small size and much more consistent discovers, and third is that Omega Devastator itself is much more of a busted midrange minion when played end game. If you changed just one thing about Omega Devastator then it would be very likely that mechs themselves (from a control standpoint) would dip in effectiveness when played by warrior.
I was a semi-hardcore Yu-Gi-Oh player for many years. One thing I really enjoyed about the game was that I could switch back and forth between a banned list format and non-banned list format as I saw fit. Tired of Chaos Control? You could join an official tournament and play against other decks. Wanted to play with your friends or even have an unoffical tournament in your neighborhood rocking that nostalgic Chaos Goat Control you could do that too. Whenever you wanted to you still owned your cards and could come back to any hardcore or meme homebrew decks you put together whenever you wanted.
In HS this is not the case due to how digital card games work. You change something too drastically and you essentially do delete a card or deck from the game. Some things can only be balance tweaked before you simply break them and they no longer work anywhere close to how the synergies worked before the changes. You have no option to keep 'your' cards and play them just in private games with friends. So the thought of suggesting changing more cards in wild, or even flat out deleting cards, reeks of something no less than disgusting to me. My biggest joy about card games is being able to save cards & decks for however long you want, whether they were Tier 1 decks or sub-par 10% WR memes, and come back to enjoy them after however long of a break you took. Having a sense of real longevity in your cards created that. It also established a sense of consistency (In the sense that you could depend on your collection more or less still being there months or years down the line). Massive over-the-board pendulum nerfs or flat out card deletions strips away such a sense of consistency and for many players it would make them care about the game less. After all, if most of your favorite cards aren't even safe from complaints from bored players wanting a change even in wild, resulting in major breakings of card synergies or card deletions, then why should you care about your cards.
Grinding out gold & dust, and spending hard earned real money on cards, becomes massively less appealing if most of your cards/decks in eternal formats (which wild is supposed to be) do not stand the test of time to do frequent overhauls on what synergies are deemed worthy by vocal minority. I know I would never have switched from a f2p player to a paying supporting customer after so many years if my cards could just get deleted, banned from all formats (even wild), or turned into post nerf rofl-copter Warsong Commanders so easily.
I'd be all for it, but it would probably cost us a raid tier... er an expansion to utilize the resources to get it implemented.
The combo really isn't problematic. All it does is allow you a different way to combo the opponent done with a less tired combo that may require more mana than 2 turns allows.
Also consider that if you are in the position where any type of otk mage is using Time Warp against you then you already lost the game at that point anyway, regardless of whether Vargoth existed as a card or not. For example, I use a Vargoth + Time Warp for Maly OTK. However, say Vargoth was completely deleted from the game. Okay, then Quest Mages would just switch to the Antonidas or Giants + Alex combo and you'd be dead when they cast Time Warp against you anyway. The extra 3rd turn is completely cosmetic in that allows you a different combo to win with. In the end you lose to any deck when you get Time Warp cast against you.
I'm glad you're enjoying it so far! And good question!
Typically by the time you do execute your combo your deck (now your opponent's new deck) is usually a lot smaller than their deck (now your new deck, turned into the Choose Your Path spells). Many of my games have seen a 5+ card difference in fatigue so that is why my opponents usually switch back, otherwise they're guaranteed to lose the fatigue battle due to the fatigue damage.
Does that help answer your question?
Thanks for featuring my deck!
I also really like all of these other decks this week too (Gotta love the good ole Weasel Priest 3:) & I've always wanted to get around to trying Dragon Mage).
Honestly at this point I have no idea. This is T5 we're talking about, that nerfs memes (Raging Worgen Warrior/Shadowboxer & actual tier decks alike). There is no actual predicting how they wreck cards/decks anymore. All they need to do is fabricate a reason to justify a nerf and it will be done. New mechanics are the perfect time to do this (again look at what they did when magnetize became a thing)
I see old deathrattles getting nerfed because of the new mechanic, similarly to how old mechs were nerfed for magnetize. That by itself gets me to not like the mechanic.
Honestly lack of fresh control options is what happens when the designers of the game you play insist on saying that classes like rogue, paladin, druid, etc aren't supposed to have control strategies 90% of the time. It's pretty laughable really that they designed rogue to not be a control class when in WoW rogue is the epitome of control in pvp with their various CC toolkits and stunlocks to lock healers out of the game, but hey what do I know?
Well just because something is in classic doesn't mean it won't rotate out (via HoF). Remember, this is T5 we're talking about the same group that backpedaled so hard away from the concept of an evergreen set and decided to go with HoF
Summoning Portal now does not reduce cards below 1 mana when discounted by Thaurassan (it has for well over a year or more). Now it just reduces discounted cards to 1 mana if they were already at 1 mana.
Unless I'm mistaken I did not see any patch notes for this anywhere.