Poppy Taric looks strong but I think it feels awkward to play two champs that both come down on 4) (makes combo-ing them a bit awkward). Fizz/Nami makes sense as a combo for obvious reasons. Sion will probably get buffed slightly in some way (lower mana cost or more stats possibly?) to make him different from Draven. Xerath needs buffs. I don't know how. I'm a little peeved cause I was so excited for Xerath too. His only relevant form his level 3, which means you need to run Sun Disc, which means you either run landmark advancement cards (in addition to the other landmark synergy stuff) or you need to run mono shurmia...
...which I haven't tried yet, but I don't see miraculously working out of the blue.
Agreed Triferian. The summon effect is something you want attached to the strongest enemy, not weakest. I know that the game classifies "strongest" first with ATK, then HP. But still...it's definitely counter productive.
The only odd thing is giving noxus ephemeral units. Holistically that's not really their thing so this feels odd (though I get why, the unit in hand is "dying" and doesn't last long.)
I try at least. I know it's not the best deck. So to say I'm excited about Xerath is an understatement. I'm hoping Xerath can allow mono shurima to exist (and be better) again. I'm also thinking about a Xerath/Malphite deck.
Oh for sure. I wasn't saying that wasn't the appeal of mono shurima. Just saying in the ranked games I've played with mono shurima, when I find myself in a winning situation, It's cause I'm up against either a greedy deck or a poor player. I find that I often don't need the sun disc/level 3 heroes to secure the win. Trust me, I'm all about the fantasy/theme of playing with the ascended level 3 heroes. It's one of the few reasons I love shurima. That being said, greedy decks don't last long in the meta these days so you always gotta tech against aggro and often that means building your deck semi-aggro-ish yourself.
I've never viewed the sun disc as the primary win condition of those mono decks. With having to tech against aggro so much these days, the decks usually can win without it against aggro. Sun disc is really only used as a stalemate breaker in control matchups or versus some mid-range decks without a ton of reach (read: not many midrange/combo decks don't have a way to NOT have reach.)
" i love the fact that this archetype bypasses it's counterplay"
Sure, this is making sure that the archetype is doing it's thing regardless of what the opponent is doing but if that what the deck does is remotely strong/oppressive you have a receipe for Desaster with this kind of archetype.
First off, please don't put words in my mouth by "translating" what I say. You act like landmarks are warping the entire meta, and the only deck I can think of that uses any of them egregiously is Azir-Irelia, which isn't even a result of the landmark, but the snowballing effect of the combined interactions between Azir and Irelia. (And it's been proven time and time again that the real culprit is Irelia. Azir and/or Dais (especially in mono-shurima) is a rather weak interaction. It's only combined with Irelia that together they become a broken powerhouse. F- blade dance.)
Secondly, you talk about "bypassing" counterplay. I'd argue that all the new shrooms support cards, not to mention the original teemo archetype and support has allowed "bypassing" of mechanics. In fact, a lot of the new bandle cards FORCE your opponent to draw. So if you are in drawn out match hoping to find some niche lethal against a Teemo/shroom deck, and you just hope that by not drawing too many cards you can find lethal before you get shroomed to death, guess what: the new bandle cards are gonna make sure you don't have a choice.
(As an aside, I also hate the fact that unlike in Hearthstone where you could play around bombs/bad cards inserted into your deck by keeping your hand full, even when your hand is full in Runeterra, you still get the shroom damage, but your card is burned anyways....wtf is that bullshit?)
Quote From Author
Landmarks always had the issue of allowing little counterplay from the opponent in exchange for usually being very unreliable cards.
You do realize this statement is....helping my side of this little debate right? I mean landmarks have very few removals (specifically most removals shuffle it back into your deck, and the others destroy it albeit at a high cost).
Quote From Author
Playing against this archetype however will proably be a race where you eigther rush the deck down early or otherwise will have a hard time sticking units to the battlefield, aka classic control from mtg.
And this is different from the current meta....how? current meta is dominated by a lot of aggro decks already. You act like there's ever been a decent control meta except for when A-sol was originally released. Don't you worry you're pretty head over it. I'm sure aggro will continue to exist in the new set, and I'm sure control will continue to be stifled for the most part except in lower ranks. See? No problems.
Quote From Author
I thought LoR wasn't one of these games but I guess we are heading towards mtg style of control with the new set.
See above statement: We aren't in a control meta. Haven't been for quite some time either.
Oh my god, I'm legit excited about this champion. I love landmarks and Xerath was always one of my favorite casters in LoL. I'm liking the whole "anti-destruction" effects that Xerath embodies. (in the sense that destroying his landmarks actually helps him.)
When Tristana got released people complained about her not being nothing like her league counterpart, now they released a champion who is similar to his league iteration people are complaining about him being tied to discard mechanic . It's just complaining for the sake of complaining at this point.
Conflating feedback/unhappiness with mechanics and "bitching for the sake of bitching" is naive at best. People are allowed to provide feedback about a champions aesthetic, role, mechanics, archetype, etc.
Your statement however, is contributing nothing to the conversation other than to "make fun" of different people, who have different expectations. If you care to contribute to a conversation in any meaningful way, then do so. Otherwise statements like the one I quoted above are best left in your mind.
And FYI, the reason people are complaining about the discard mechanic being tied to him is because the discard mechanic pigeon holes him into specific champion pairings, none of which make a ton of sense. Additionally, the discard mechanic doesn't seem befitting Sion's role and the way he is presented in League. Aesthetically I think they did well with him, but as others have said: they just printed Draven 2.0 for all effective purposes. And as I mentioned earlier in the thread: Either he does Draven's job so well that he obviates Draven, or he ends up not doing Draven's job as well, which means...they printed another discard-esque champion that is medicore. Those are the only two possibilities.
Sivir: Kind of agree, her flip needs to require more damage. Other than that I think she's fine.
Merciless Hunter: Also kind of agree, 3/3 would tone down the aggressive nature of the card a bit and prevent it from trading up quite as easily.
Emperor's Dais: The issue with Azir Irelia is not Dais, it's blade dance/Irelia and her cadre of cards. Mono Shurima sucks, and you an see it when you try to use Dais in mono decks and others. A good test is to take landmarks, and put them into Mono Regions, do they still do well? In the case of the Grand Plaza and Veiled Temple. They were STILL insanely good in mono decks, and thus proved that it wasn't pairings that made them overpowered, but just the general card itself. So...HARD disagree here on nerfing Dais here. Shurima alone is relatively weak barring a few outlier cards. If anything the one thing Shurima does need nerfed is that stupid 6/4 card with spellshield. Can't remember the name, but it's broken to say the least. The problem is Shurima is used to splash with other regions becuase it has a few really good powerhouse cards, but is relatively weak by itself.
Twin Disciples is a very good card. Is it broken? I don't really think so. I think the real issue, is as you mentioned: Elusives. Elusive cards, especially the current top meta rally/elusive deck is just broken because elusive cards are generally hard to counter, thus forcing you to either include many more combat tricks/buffs to counter them (which is not even a real good counter considering Ionia has the best anti-spell counter spells in the game) so then you are forced to either go with burst speed counters, OR you are forced to go with sub-par elusives from your own regions in an attempt to block/counter your opponents elusives.
I said it when the game first came out and I'll say it again: Elusives should be WAY understatted, and should not be given good scaling alone (cards like Young Witch, Fae Guide, Ghost, and others shouldn't exist). Golden Aegis is moderately good in Jarvan/Taric decks. IT's broken when used in decks like all elusives.
What they need to do, is start printing anti-splashing keywords on high value spells/minions to prevent splashing cards from one region into another just for 1 or 2 REALLY broken card synergies. (Something like this for Golden Aegis for example: Give an ally Barrier this round. Allegiance: Rally). They could do the same for Deny or Nopeify. They could simply add allegiance requirements to specifically overused cards to prevent them from being splashed into decks.
Lee Sin has always been problematic. But he is a combo deck so he does have some weakness's against aggro. And aggro can deal with Eyes of the Dragon relatively easily if enough pressure is applied. Eyes of the Dragon isn't that strong IMO but I do think that Ionia has too many good spell tools available to them that cover all the bases (anti-spell cards, decent minion and landmark removal, decent buffing potential, lots of decent Elusives, and on top of everything, A LOT of card draw. If I had to blame a single region for having too many good cards, while other regions suffer from lack of good region identity cards, it's Ionia. IMO Ionia is the crux problem region in the game at the moment.)
I really like Sion from LoL , but man I really wish they hadn't tied all the new cards around him to discard. This forces Draven and/or Jinx synergies. Draven kind of makes sense but not really, but Jinx just feels awkward pairing with Sion (thematically in my head at least).
Draven also feels odd, here's this Undead Juggernaut hanging out with this arrogant arena fighter? Just....feels odd. I feel like it would have been way more thematic/appropriate to pair his mechanic with Viktor...
Edited: to remove my comment about video now that it's in the post.
Meta still changing. Our goal isn't to have 50% win rates across the board. It's ok if power and population fluctuates over time, we step in to change outliers or in situations where we think the meta is about to take a negative turn or never change
So uh....what is the goal there TeamFive?
Making that statement is almost a bit infuriating...like if he had said "our goal is to create parity between the classes and get them as close to 50% winrate as we can, but we can't always guarantee that with every expansion." Then I would have been fine. But seriously this is slightly annoying. If it's a matter of resources, then they need to hire more people to help with balancing and ACTUALLY testing cards.
I know people like to meme about blizzard being "small indie", but the reality is: I expect some bugs and balance issues on any patch/nerf/buff. That's just regular software design, nothing can change that no matter what size company you are. (And if you actually think differently, you're naive and/or you never worked for a software company.) But sometimes these balance issues are so egregious it makes you wonder how it got past QA and internal playtesting.
I'll probably try it again eventually, but these achievements that rely on your opponent being thoughtful are all a huge nuisance.
This is why I think achievements in games are generally a bad thing. The first achievements as I recall from XBOX "gamerpoints" were first thought to have some indication of skill.
Just my 2 cents, but I honestly think gaming would be better off without achievement hunting.
I also feel that the Impact keyword feels like a weird version of overwhelm. I don't quite get why the printed it. Manifest? Makes sense, we were expecting it down the road sooner or later (though TBH, I thought Invoke was already their way of doing discover, but apparently Invoke is purely discover for celestial cards, so Manifest appears to be a much wider pool or mechanic)
Anyhow....back to my previous statement. Impact just feels like Overwhelm except it doesn't require you to essentially kill the minion in order to deal the damage. Which means it's either going to feel worse than Overwhelm in practice, or it's going to be much better than overwhelm in general.
Either case doesn't bode well: They either print a new keyword that obviates the old keyword, or they print a new keyword that doesn't do anything really functionally different than a previous keyword (which is boring and lazy development)
If anything else from this trailer....it reminds me how much I loved Lucian/Sienna's music theme. It's been years since I played League of Legends (Last time I played it was when Dominion mode was still a thing lol) but they did make such flavorful champions.
Agreed that it feels wierd that sienna and some others aren't dual region. It feels odd seeing these light "sentinels" as shadow isles based cards. Clearly meant to pair with demacia (flavor wise), but why do I get the feeling that they'll just be used in Viego decks?
Get out of the Twitter hate/whine groupies for once...
...try watching people who use their skill/experience to make the most out of less played classes.
Based on your responses (but mostly this response) you seem to be aggressively attacking anyone with a differing opinion to yourself. My suggestion is to take your own advice and get out of the "hate" group mentality. He/She is allowed to express his opinion on this change (it's literally asking the community for their opinion) just as you are allowed to express your opinion.
Some people don't enjoy certain classes. Just like some people never play Skyrim with a stealth/assassin, some people may never play certain classes in Hearthstone.
YOU do not get to dictate what people perceive as fun, and what isn't. I don't really care about some witty or snarky response to this. Nor do I care if you feel the need to get the last word in edgewise or some incessant need to "be right". Just read what I said, pause, think and take away from the conversation this:
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Poppy Taric looks strong but I think it feels awkward to play two champs that both come down on 4) (makes combo-ing them a bit awkward). Fizz/Nami makes sense as a combo for obvious reasons. Sion will probably get buffed slightly in some way (lower mana cost or more stats possibly?) to make him different from Draven. Xerath needs buffs. I don't know how. I'm a little peeved cause I was so excited for Xerath too. His only relevant form his level 3, which means you need to run Sun Disc, which means you either run landmark advancement cards (in addition to the other landmark synergy stuff) or you need to run mono shurmia...
...which I haven't tried yet, but I don't see miraculously working out of the blue.
I hope! I think Xerath/Malph will make a good pairing.
Agreed Triferian. The summon effect is something you want attached to the strongest enemy, not weakest. I know that the game classifies "strongest" first with ATK, then HP. But still...it's definitely counter productive.
The only odd thing is giving noxus ephemeral units. Holistically that's not really their thing so this feels odd (though I get why, the unit in hand is "dying" and doesn't last long.)
I try at least. I know it's not the best deck. So to say I'm excited about Xerath is an understatement. I'm hoping Xerath can allow mono shurima to exist (and be better) again. I'm also thinking about a Xerath/Malphite deck.
Oh for sure. I wasn't saying that wasn't the appeal of mono shurima. Just saying in the ranked games I've played with mono shurima, when I find myself in a winning situation, It's cause I'm up against either a greedy deck or a poor player. I find that I often don't need the sun disc/level 3 heroes to secure the win. Trust me, I'm all about the fantasy/theme of playing with the ascended level 3 heroes. It's one of the few reasons I love shurima. That being said, greedy decks don't last long in the meta these days so you always gotta tech against aggro and often that means building your deck semi-aggro-ish yourself.
I've never viewed the sun disc as the primary win condition of those mono decks. With having to tech against aggro so much these days, the decks usually can win without it against aggro. Sun disc is really only used as a stalemate breaker in control matchups or versus some mid-range decks without a ton of reach (read: not many midrange/combo decks don't have a way to NOT have reach.)
First off, please don't put words in my mouth by "translating" what I say. You act like landmarks are warping the entire meta, and the only deck I can think of that uses any of them egregiously is Azir-Irelia, which isn't even a result of the landmark, but the snowballing effect of the combined interactions between Azir and Irelia. (And it's been proven time and time again that the real culprit is Irelia. Azir and/or Dais (especially in mono-shurima) is a rather weak interaction. It's only combined with Irelia that together they become a broken powerhouse. F- blade dance.)
Secondly, you talk about "bypassing" counterplay. I'd argue that all the new shrooms support cards, not to mention the original teemo archetype and support has allowed "bypassing" of mechanics. In fact, a lot of the new bandle cards FORCE your opponent to draw. So if you are in drawn out match hoping to find some niche lethal against a Teemo/shroom deck, and you just hope that by not drawing too many cards you can find lethal before you get shroomed to death, guess what: the new bandle cards are gonna make sure you don't have a choice.
(As an aside, I also hate the fact that unlike in Hearthstone where you could play around bombs/bad cards inserted into your deck by keeping your hand full, even when your hand is full in Runeterra, you still get the shroom damage, but your card is burned anyways....wtf is that bullshit?)
You do realize this statement is....helping my side of this little debate right? I mean landmarks have very few removals (specifically most removals shuffle it back into your deck, and the others destroy it albeit at a high cost).
And this is different from the current meta....how? current meta is dominated by a lot of aggro decks already. You act like there's ever been a decent control meta except for when A-sol was originally released. Don't you worry you're pretty head over it. I'm sure aggro will continue to exist in the new set, and I'm sure control will continue to be stifled for the most part except in lower ranks. See? No problems.
See above statement: We aren't in a control meta. Haven't been for quite some time either.
Oh my god, I'm legit excited about this champion. I love landmarks and Xerath was always one of my favorite casters in LoL. I'm liking the whole "anti-destruction" effects that Xerath embodies. (in the sense that destroying his landmarks actually helps him.)
Conflating feedback/unhappiness with mechanics and "bitching for the sake of bitching" is naive at best. People are allowed to provide feedback about a champions aesthetic, role, mechanics, archetype, etc.
Your statement however, is contributing nothing to the conversation other than to "make fun" of different people, who have different expectations. If you care to contribute to a conversation in any meaningful way, then do so. Otherwise statements like the one I quoted above are best left in your mind.
And FYI, the reason people are complaining about the discard mechanic being tied to him is because the discard mechanic pigeon holes him into specific champion pairings, none of which make a ton of sense. Additionally, the discard mechanic doesn't seem befitting Sion's role and the way he is presented in League. Aesthetically I think they did well with him, but as others have said: they just printed Draven 2.0 for all effective purposes. And as I mentioned earlier in the thread: Either he does Draven's job so well that he obviates Draven, or he ends up not doing Draven's job as well, which means...they printed another discard-esque champion that is medicore. Those are the only two possibilities.
Agreed Linblade, agreed. Sigh...look how they murdered my boy Sion? (irony intended)
Regarding your thoughts:
Sivir: Kind of agree, her flip needs to require more damage. Other than that I think she's fine.
Merciless Hunter: Also kind of agree, 3/3 would tone down the aggressive nature of the card a bit and prevent it from trading up quite as easily.
Emperor's Dais: The issue with Azir Irelia is not Dais, it's blade dance/Irelia and her cadre of cards. Mono Shurima sucks, and you an see it when you try to use Dais in mono decks and others. A good test is to take landmarks, and put them into Mono Regions, do they still do well? In the case of the Grand Plaza and Veiled Temple. They were STILL insanely good in mono decks, and thus proved that it wasn't pairings that made them overpowered, but just the general card itself. So...HARD disagree here on nerfing Dais here. Shurima alone is relatively weak barring a few outlier cards. If anything the one thing Shurima does need nerfed is that stupid 6/4 card with spellshield. Can't remember the name, but it's broken to say the least. The problem is Shurima is used to splash with other regions becuase it has a few really good powerhouse cards, but is relatively weak by itself.
Twin Disciples is a very good card. Is it broken? I don't really think so. I think the real issue, is as you mentioned: Elusives. Elusive cards, especially the current top meta rally/elusive deck is just broken because elusive cards are generally hard to counter, thus forcing you to either include many more combat tricks/buffs to counter them (which is not even a real good counter considering Ionia has the best anti-spell counter spells in the game) so then you are forced to either go with burst speed counters, OR you are forced to go with sub-par elusives from your own regions in an attempt to block/counter your opponents elusives.
I said it when the game first came out and I'll say it again: Elusives should be WAY understatted, and should not be given good scaling alone (cards like Young Witch, Fae Guide, Ghost, and others shouldn't exist). Golden Aegis is moderately good in Jarvan/Taric decks. IT's broken when used in decks like all elusives.
What they need to do, is start printing anti-splashing keywords on high value spells/minions to prevent splashing cards from one region into another just for 1 or 2 REALLY broken card synergies. (Something like this for Golden Aegis for example: Give an ally Barrier this round. Allegiance: Rally). They could do the same for Deny or Nopeify. They could simply add allegiance requirements to specifically overused cards to prevent them from being splashed into decks.
Lee Sin has always been problematic. But he is a combo deck so he does have some weakness's against aggro. And aggro can deal with Eyes of the Dragon relatively easily if enough pressure is applied. Eyes of the Dragon isn't that strong IMO but I do think that Ionia has too many good spell tools available to them that cover all the bases (anti-spell cards, decent minion and landmark removal, decent buffing potential, lots of decent Elusives, and on top of everything, A LOT of card draw. If I had to blame a single region for having too many good cards, while other regions suffer from lack of good region identity cards, it's Ionia. IMO Ionia is the crux problem region in the game at the moment.)
I really like Sion from LoL , but man I really wish they hadn't tied all the new cards around him to discard. This forces Draven and/or Jinx synergies. Draven kind of makes sense but not really, but Jinx just feels awkward pairing with Sion (thematically in my head at least).
Draven also feels odd, here's this Undead Juggernaut hanging out with this arrogant arena fighter? Just....feels odd. I feel like it would have been way more thematic/appropriate to pair his mechanic with Viktor...
Edited: to remove my comment about video now that it's in the post.
So uh....what is the goal there TeamFive?
Making that statement is almost a bit infuriating...like if he had said "our goal is to create parity between the classes and get them as close to 50% winrate as we can, but we can't always guarantee that with every expansion." Then I would have been fine. But seriously this is slightly annoying. If it's a matter of resources, then they need to hire more people to help with balancing and ACTUALLY testing cards.
I know people like to meme about blizzard being "small indie", but the reality is: I expect some bugs and balance issues on any patch/nerf/buff. That's just regular software design, nothing can change that no matter what size company you are. (And if you actually think differently, you're naive and/or you never worked for a software company.) But sometimes these balance issues are so egregious it makes you wonder how it got past QA and internal playtesting.
This is why I think achievements in games are generally a bad thing. The first achievements as I recall from XBOX "gamerpoints" were first thought to have some indication of skill.
Just my 2 cents, but I honestly think gaming would be better off without achievement hunting.
I agree Linkblade.
I also feel that the Impact keyword feels like a weird version of overwhelm. I don't quite get why the printed it. Manifest? Makes sense, we were expecting it down the road sooner or later (though TBH, I thought Invoke was already their way of doing discover, but apparently Invoke is purely discover for celestial cards, so Manifest appears to be a much wider pool or mechanic)
Anyhow....back to my previous statement. Impact just feels like Overwhelm except it doesn't require you to essentially kill the minion in order to deal the damage. Which means it's either going to feel worse than Overwhelm in practice, or it's going to be much better than overwhelm in general.
Either case doesn't bode well: They either print a new keyword that obviates the old keyword, or they print a new keyword that doesn't do anything really functionally different than a previous keyword (which is boring and lazy development)
If anything else from this trailer....it reminds me how much I loved Lucian/Sienna's music theme. It's been years since I played League of Legends (Last time I played it was when Dominion mode was still a thing lol) but they did make such flavorful champions.
It could also make it so SI is required as a pairing for any competitive deck, which restricts possibilities as well...
Agreed that it feels wierd that sienna and some others aren't dual region. It feels odd seeing these light "sentinels" as shadow isles based cards. Clearly meant to pair with demacia (flavor wise), but why do I get the feeling that they'll just be used in Viego decks?
Based on your responses (but mostly this response) you seem to be aggressively attacking anyone with a differing opinion to yourself. My suggestion is to take your own advice and get out of the "hate" group mentality. He/She is allowed to express his opinion on this change (it's literally asking the community for their opinion) just as you are allowed to express your opinion.
Some people don't enjoy certain classes. Just like some people never play Skyrim with a stealth/assassin, some people may never play certain classes in Hearthstone.
YOU do not get to dictate what people perceive as fun, and what isn't. I don't really care about some witty or snarky response to this. Nor do I care if you feel the need to get the last word in edgewise or some incessant need to "be right". Just read what I said, pause, think and take away from the conversation this:
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Now this hero? This feels like an appropriate themed dual-region hero with a unique mechanic. (Board control @ lvl1, win condition @ lvl2)
Edit: also Veigar's voice lines feel quite amusing to listen to. :)