I think they only nerf something if it has a high winrate and a high play rate. I’ve personally never played against that deck you think is OP, which likely indicates that it isn’t a huge part of the meta like Lee Sin was at its peak. It doesn’t matter how OP the deck is, if it has a low play rate Riot likely won’t nerf it.
Also, I’m not sure if the deck you’re talking about is really low on interactivity. Those regions don’t have access to much protection, so I assume something like vengeance or ruination could stop Swain and Sejuani from winning the game, and adding healing to your deck makes it better against burn. I have never played against the deck so I don’t know if those are true counters, but pretty much every deck offers some interactivity against it (except maybe the old Ionia Elusives deck with crazy amounts of protection tools).
the funny thing is that the old ionian elusives got countered by swain sejuani since a leveled sejuani would just frostbite their board every attack round and not let them do their thing. Sure it might seem unlikely to have a leveld up Sejuani reliably on the board but the deck if its built right will have a leveled sejuani on board on turn 6 almost always and elusives didnt win that early, given most of the burn tools in this deck are also removal spells such like Death's Hand, Ember Maiden noxian favourBADCARDNAME
If you want to beat go hard you just could play one of the new scars decks. with the help of The Scargrounds go hard is practically useless and with Bloodsworn Pledge you will make your units survive PYB aswell
to those who don't really play expeditions frequently proably won't be able to relate to this post so I am not sure if that post will be for you.
For those who do play expeditions frequently I would like to know if it is normal for expeditions that decks are that close to contructed level on low win counts that most of them have a cheesy way to end games without many ways to interact as the opponent, with cards that pretty much close the game once they hit the field and where your best bet is spray and pray that they don't hit their wincondition earlier than you can beat them.
What kind of decks am I talking about? I talk about The Grand Plaza decks Lee Sin deck s Fiora decks with Unyielding Spirit (actually also) Teemo shroom decks with tons of the "both-player-draw" cards and removal (the classic) elusive spam perfect curve daybreak or all in noxus, decks that are so extreme at what they do that you have no way beating them at their game and where you have to find ways around them with your own kind of cheese.
It feels kinda terrible to play that kind of expeditions where your deck needs to be crazy good to survive even the early rounds because the deck quality feels to be through the roof.
I mean there are plenty explanations to me for this which are:
-only hardcore limited players are playing expeditions anymore
- there are 3rd party programms used widely that assist with deck creation
- powerlevel of cosmic creations is just busted in limited
- consistancy of draft themes is too high
- me being unlucky with the matchups (which is unlikely since then it would not have been that frequent)
Proably it is a mix of all of these factors. I just can say that play expeditions like this feels extremely hard to compete in and are just miles away from the experience i had the last times playing expeditions.
I don't know if that is possible but i feel like riot should reduce the theme consistancy of decks so that cheesy onetrick decks are less a thing but who am I to judge...
What have you experienced yourselves? Have you been to expeditions since cosmic creations? If so: how has it felt to play in it? Did you experienced the cheesy onetrick issue aswell? Do you know a solution other than doing the same?
I don't enjoy a semi constructed limited where both players try to outcheese each other with their strats and removal is so rare and weak that you can't stop the cheese...
Sure Kinkou Lifeblade is obsolete right now but: I am quite sure riot will soon eighter nerf Sparklefly if they find it too good or buff lifebale if they think it's fine. Riot actually cares about balance and only nerfed it back then because it was so popular in an unpopular archetype. I think nowadays elusives weren't even that good since we got answers for them in many regions and challenger slapped on all units we summon (thanks to The Grand Plaza)
I find it kind of funny how fun and interactive gameplay is their fundamental metric to balance around.
Meanwhile Swain Sejuani overwhelm/burn exists (which is essentially gruul from mtg) since rising tides which is against both principles of fun and interactivity and still didn't receive real nerfs just because it isn't highly received by the biassed proscene.
It's not HS there will probably be changes to the card next patch.
Also not all midrange decks lose to it,there are some that are good against it.
I do not mean to take away your right of free speech, but I you don't need to voice your hatred towards blizzard at every opportunity. We get it, you don't like blizzard, hearthstone is terrible, you left the game and don't support them anymore. Fine, that's your choice. But you don't have to talk about it all of the time. At this point you just come across as salty.
May we not trashtalk trash in other forums? I think we may and we will :) Just deal with it, its not like you have to read forums about a game you don't play/prefer. Its like complaining about league players who trashtalk dota: let them do their thing its not your bizness, it doesn't need to bother you since haters gonna hate and its not personal against any HS player now is it?
We have our reasons to hate blizzard: for me its still a miracle that a company that made such great titles like WC3 and SCII became such a shithole of a company but hey activision things i guess....
The thing is it destroys all aggro and midrange decks. Only control wins. Countering 2/3 decks just with 1 card included in your deck is stupid...
The thing is it depends on your list of go hard actually counters you or not as a midrange deck if you got means to protect key cards you will beat go hard with midrange decks however... aggro really gets blown out what is this not enough reason to "remove" it if anything tweak the numbers by a little as i already suggested it and leave it as it is...
How would you even nerf it? My guess would be eighter you make PYB deal 4 damage or you make PYB cost 5 mana but thats all there is really what would tune it down in a reasonable way
As someone still playing a deck from rising tides and still kicking asses left and right, including go hard opponents i don't mind the deck too much but yeah for our poor aggro players this deck sucks and i don't know if they can handle it for too long :(
Yeah.. no you really can't compare both. Go hard starts at a higher powerlevel than Idol but doesn't scale as hard, yet it is overall a better card than jade idol since it casts both halves at once and resembles a 5 damage aoe effect which gives you instantly board control, a 12/12 jade golem well... kills your opponent next turn but a jade-deck has a glaring weakness to aggro while go hard is very good versus aggro and pretty bad versus combo and control
Now that is what I call a good and detailed answer, thanks for that.
I am admittedly a clear opponent of blizzard as a company which gives a false Image of being one's best buddy. It is overprizing it's products and underpaying their employees. With the blitzchang suspension they ultimately shown that they don't give a damn about the interests of their western customer base.
However these points aren't about Hearthstone's gameplay but the gameplay was also often very lame because blizzard leaned way more into clear finisher-cards which you most often only played around by being fast-> playing aggressive decks. Those aggressive decks got old very fast and were mostly highroll-dependant. Not to mention the fact that "premium" constructed cards and limited trash were very clearly separated in terms of powerlevel, so that trying to build offmeta decks to beat metadecks was most often not a thing at all because the "playable cardpool" was smaller while having a larger total cardpool than in LoR ...
And about LoR feeling more grindy: i don't know if you play meta decks or not but in case you do: the key to wreck the ladder is coming up with the niche deck that your opponent will not be ready for because it's answers make no sense against the meta. And indeed LoR is way more consistant and repetetive in order to make "playing and building right" a factor.
If you like it more random go with other games that on the flipside won't allow you to hold winrates above 70% at a regular basis, the choice is yours.
Awesome. Having just quit Hearthstone, I'm looking forward to my game having more to collect.
Leaving Hearthstone was a good decision.
How did you even stay that long to a clearly inferior title managed by a company doing nothing more than reselling old concepts on higher powerlevel content and call that amazing because they actually just want to invest low effort for maximum profits - just like every other activision partner?
I'm really curious what drives players to still play Hearthstone.
What do you guys expect from the upcoming expansion?
I am very certain that it will come with a huuuge powerlevel increase of aggro midrange and otk combo therefore i see control/ stall strategies getting dunked on hard.
The tempo that the new archetypes bring to the table + the consistancy boost for certain otk decks makes me actually expect that we will see a drastic decline of average turns played (about 2 turns) since i already theorycrafted multiple decks that reliably pull leathal until turn 5 unless your opponent gets optimal answers which is unlikely outside of a specific anti deck ...
I might be wrong but man if we get an anti control/stall meta that would be great imo
This decklist should not be new to you since Viktor HeimerBADCARDNAME was already the base for many different decks.
The one thing that this Viktor list does different is that is play the Evershade Stalker as a means to "otk" the opponent. How does the stalker do that? Now his nightfall lets you create a copy of him, which is still costs 2 mana but if you have 2 leveled viktors on board you instead get 0 mana units to play which trigger augment. Therefore your augment units grow very large which should kill the opponent once they hit him. Aside of that its just the same list as you have seen from other players: a controlish heimerdinger deck that is capable to level heimerdinger + viktor which buffs augments very fast and effective.
It is also very 2 drop heavy to draw through your deck with Insightful Investigator and find you combo more reliable (btw evershade combo's nicely with investigator too)
But what does this deck do if it doesn't don't draw The Grand Plaza? What is the plan B then?
the funny thing is that the old ionian elusives got countered by swain sejuani since a leveled sejuani would just frostbite their board every attack round and not let them do their thing. Sure it might seem unlikely to have a leveld up Sejuani reliably on the board but the deck if its built right will have a leveled sejuani on board on turn 6 almost always and elusives didnt win that early, given most of the burn tools in this deck are also removal spells such like Death's Hand, Ember Maiden noxian favourBADCARDNAME
If you want to beat go hard you just could play one of the new scars decks. with the help of The Scargrounds go hard is practically useless and with Bloodsworn Pledge you will make your units survive PYB aswell
Hey everyone,
to those who don't really play expeditions frequently proably won't be able to relate to this post so I am not sure if that post will be for you.
For those who do play expeditions frequently I would like to know if it is normal for expeditions that decks are that close to contructed level on low win counts that most of them have a cheesy way to end games without many ways to interact as the opponent, with cards that pretty much close the game once they hit the field and where your best bet is spray and pray that they don't hit their wincondition earlier than you can beat them.
What kind of decks am I talking about? I talk about The Grand Plaza decks Lee Sin deck s Fiora decks with Unyielding Spirit (actually also) Teemo shroom decks with tons of the "both-player-draw" cards and removal (the classic) elusive spam perfect curve daybreak or all in noxus, decks that are so extreme at what they do that you have no way beating them at their game and where you have to find ways around them with your own kind of cheese.
It feels kinda terrible to play that kind of expeditions where your deck needs to be crazy good to survive even the early rounds because the deck quality feels to be through the roof.
I mean there are plenty explanations to me for this which are:
-only hardcore limited players are playing expeditions anymore
- there are 3rd party programms used widely that assist with deck creation
- powerlevel of cosmic creations is just busted in limited
- consistancy of draft themes is too high
- me being unlucky with the matchups (which is unlikely since then it would not have been that frequent)
Proably it is a mix of all of these factors. I just can say that play expeditions like this feels extremely hard to compete in and are just miles away from the experience i had the last times playing expeditions.
I don't know if that is possible but i feel like riot should reduce the theme consistancy of decks so that cheesy onetrick decks are less a thing but who am I to judge...
What have you experienced yourselves? Have you been to expeditions since cosmic creations? If so: how has it felt to play in it? Did you experienced the cheesy onetrick issue aswell? Do you know a solution other than doing the same?
I don't enjoy a semi constructed limited where both players try to outcheese each other with their strats and removal is so rare and weak that you can't stop the cheese...
Sure Kinkou Lifeblade is obsolete right now but: I am quite sure riot will soon eighter nerf Sparklefly if they find it too good or buff lifebale if they think it's fine. Riot actually cares about balance and only nerfed it back then because it was so popular in an unpopular archetype. I think nowadays elusives weren't even that good since we got answers for them in many regions and challenger slapped on all units we summon (thanks to The Grand Plaza)
As an experienced League of Legends Player i would suggest to replace Teemo with Heimerdinger
That should improve the deck significantly ;)
I find it kind of funny how fun and interactive gameplay is their fundamental metric to balance around.
Meanwhile Swain Sejuani overwhelm/burn exists (which is essentially gruul from mtg) since rising tides which is against both principles of fun and interactivity and still didn't receive real nerfs just because it isn't highly received by the biassed proscene.
Like... isn't that funny?
May we not trashtalk trash in other forums? I think we may and we will :) Just deal with it, its not like you have to read forums about a game you don't play/prefer. Its like complaining about league players who trashtalk dota: let them do their thing its not your bizness, it doesn't need to bother you since haters gonna hate and its not personal against any HS player now is it?
We have our reasons to hate blizzard: for me its still a miracle that a company that made such great titles like WC3 and SCII became such a shithole of a company but hey activision things i guess....
The thing is it depends on your list of go hard actually counters you or not as a midrange deck if you got means to protect key cards you will beat go hard with midrange decks however... aggro really gets blown out what is this not enough reason to "remove" it if anything tweak the numbers by a little as i already suggested it and leave it as it is...
How would you even nerf it? My guess would be eighter you make PYB deal 4 damage or you make PYB cost 5 mana but thats all there is really what would tune it down in a reasonable way
As someone still playing a deck from rising tides and still kicking asses left and right, including go hard opponents i don't mind the deck too much but yeah for our poor aggro players this deck sucks and i don't know if they can handle it for too long :(
Yeah.. no you really can't compare both. Go hard starts at a higher powerlevel than Idol but doesn't scale as hard, yet it is overall a better card than jade idol since it casts both halves at once and resembles a 5 damage aoe effect which gives you instantly board control, a 12/12 jade golem well... kills your opponent next turn but a jade-deck has a glaring weakness to aggro while go hard is very good versus aggro and pretty bad versus combo and control
Now that is what I call a good and detailed answer, thanks for that.
I am admittedly a clear opponent of blizzard as a company which gives a false Image of being one's best buddy. It is overprizing it's products and underpaying their employees. With the blitzchang suspension they ultimately shown that they don't give a damn about the interests of their western customer base.
However these points aren't about Hearthstone's gameplay but the gameplay was also often very lame because blizzard leaned way more into clear finisher-cards which you most often only played around by being fast-> playing aggressive decks. Those aggressive decks got old very fast and were mostly highroll-dependant. Not to mention the fact that "premium" constructed cards and limited trash were very clearly separated in terms of powerlevel, so that trying to build offmeta decks to beat metadecks was most often not a thing at all because the "playable cardpool" was smaller while having a larger total cardpool than in LoR ...
And about LoR feeling more grindy: i don't know if you play meta decks or not but in case you do: the key to wreck the ladder is coming up with the niche deck that your opponent will not be ready for because it's answers make no sense against the meta. And indeed LoR is way more consistant and repetetive in order to make "playing and building right" a factor.
If you like it more random go with other games that on the flipside won't allow you to hold winrates above 70% at a regular basis, the choice is yours.
Wait... do we actually have more builds for zoe who is expected to be... not good, than we have for viktor?
Its a crazy world we live in i guess... its like you would build more teemo decks than twisted fate decks just for the memes.
But hey proably I am very exeptional with my taste and maybe the majority of players do not care about competetiveness...
Leaving Hearthstone was a good decision.
How did you even stay that long to a clearly inferior title managed by a company doing nothing more than reselling old concepts on higher powerlevel content and call that amazing because they actually just want to invest low effort for maximum profits - just like every other activision partner?
I'm really curious what drives players to still play Hearthstone.
What do you guys expect from the upcoming expansion?
I am very certain that it will come with a huuuge powerlevel increase of aggro midrange and otk combo therefore i see control/ stall strategies getting dunked on hard.
The tempo that the new archetypes bring to the table + the consistancy boost for certain otk decks makes me actually expect that we will see a drastic decline of average turns played (about 2 turns) since i already theorycrafted multiple decks that reliably pull leathal until turn 5 unless your opponent gets optimal answers which is unlikely outside of a specific anti deck ...
I might be wrong but man if we get an anti control/stall meta that would be great imo
This decklist should not be new to you since Viktor HeimerBADCARDNAME was already the base for many different decks.
The one thing that this Viktor list does different is that is play the Evershade Stalker as a means to "otk" the opponent. How does the stalker do that? Now his nightfall lets you create a copy of him, which is still costs 2 mana but if you have 2 leveled viktors on board you instead get 0 mana units to play which trigger augment. Therefore your augment units grow very large which should kill the opponent once they hit him. Aside of that its just the same list as you have seen from other players: a controlish heimerdinger deck that is capable to level heimerdinger + viktor which buffs augments very fast and effective.
It is also very 2 drop heavy to draw through your deck with Insightful Investigator and find you combo more reliable (btw evershade combo's nicely with investigator too)
Or maybe Riot just underestimates Riven'sBADCARDNAME Powerlevel/want to refresh the meta with a little powercreep to make the new archetypes matter.
I am okay if Riot creates new cards in a stronger way like they did with Riven as long as they nerf it once it gets too obNOXious
All of the spells are burst speed so you need 3 reforge triggers + 3 spell mana which is super easy to do for the deck she gets into..
Not that quickly?! She levels up turn 4-5 without serious problems...