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Hearthstone | Posted by | 5 years, 9 months ago
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Demon hunter class identity.

Shiny new busted cards to make new players want to play hearthstone, while at the same time making long time players hate playing hearthstone. IDK maybe they think the people coming in will be more than the people leaving, but negativity bias exists for a reason. People remember when they get shit on over and over by DH more than they'll remember winning against them. I will not play this game when the expansion drops. I'm not paying activision for this shit. And i'm not going to play until this class gets fixed. And hopefully others are just like me to make activision finally stop releasing busted cards that are intended to be busted and not fun to play against.

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  • Shiny new busted cards to make new players want to play hearthstone, while at the same time making long time players hate playing hearthstone. IDK maybe they think the people coming in will be more than the people leaving, but negativity bias exists for a reason. People remember when they get shit on over and over by DH more than they'll remember winning against them. I will not play this game when the expansion drops. I'm not paying activision for this shit. And i'm not going to play until this class gets fixed. And hopefully others are just like me to make activision finally stop releasing busted cards that are intended to be busted and not fun to play against.

  • I don't think they're intentionally releasing broken cards.

     

    I think they're just idiots.

     

    Just wait out the first weeks after you're done testing half-baked theorcrafts. DH will get yet another nerf probably almost instantly. They have nothing to gain from making a single class the absolute best, even if they attract new players with it. At best those players will stay for 2 more expansions until they get frustrated.

    Friendly
    • Quote From YourPrivateNightmare

      I don't think they're intentionally releasing broken cards.

       

      I think they're just idiots.

       

      Just wait out the first weeks after you're done testing half-baked theorcrafts. DH will get yet another nerf probably almost instantly. They have nothing to gain from making a single class the absolute best, even if they attract new players with it. At best those players will stay for 2 more expansions until they get frustrated.

      Every demon hunter card in this set so far is so far above every other card released. Even the legendary cards are lackluster for every class but demon hunter. Demon hunter gets better houndmaster shaw. warrior/rogue get captain greenskin. Demon hunter gets send a card to the bottom of your opponent's deck druid/hunter gets worse keleseth. And those are the power dual class legendaries. The normal ones are worse. Mage gets Dalaran Aspirant, Rogue gets worse Piloted Shredder that always summons Kobold Barbarian. Willow for warlock is only good in wild and rattlegore is a meme for a big style of a class that doesn't even exist in wild with Woecleaver

      • Quote From clawz161
        Quote From YourPrivateNightmare

        I don't think they're intentionally releasing broken cards.

         

        I think they're just idiots.

         

        Just wait out the first weeks after you're done testing half-baked theorcrafts. DH will get yet another nerf probably almost instantly. They have nothing to gain from making a single class the absolute best, even if they attract new players with it. At best those players will stay for 2 more expansions until they get frustrated.

        Every demon hunter card in this set so far is so far above every other card released. Even the legendary cards are lackluster for every class but demon hunter. Demon hunter gets better houndmaster shaw. warrior/rogue get captain greenskin. Demon hunter gets send a card to the bottom of your opponent's deck druid/hunter gets worse keleseth. And those are the power dual class legendaries. The normal ones are worse. Mage gets Dalaran Aspirant, Rogue gets worse Piloted Shredder that always summons Kobold Barbarian. Willow for warlock is only good in wild and rattlegore is a meme for a big style of a class that doesn't even exist in wild with Woecleaver

        Ace Hunter Kreen is nothing at all like Houndmaster Shaw. Glide and [Hearthstone Card (Star Student Selina) Not Found] don't send cards to the bottom of the deck, they shuffle them in randomly. Shan'do Wildclaw is not a strictly worse Keleseth, it just has a different deckbuilding requirement. Mozaki, Master Duelist is a million times better than Dalaran Aspirant. Your description of Infiltrator Lilian is kind of odd since a Piloted shredder that summoned a 4/4 is actually pretty good, and Lilian is better than that since she also has stealth. And I think it is a bit too early to judge Rattlegore since they might introduce more Big Warrior support this set.

        Stop exaggerating just to make things sound worse then they are. Demon Hunter has been nerfed several times and I don't think we need more nerfs yet. And I doubt having [Hearthstone Card (Star Student Selina) Not Found] shuffle a single one of your cards into your deck will be the end of the world. Glide may be a problem, but no Demon Hunter cards revealed so far strongly suggests that they will be an insanely powerful super OP unstoppable force. 

        Friendly
        • Quote From KANSAS
          Quote From clawz161
          Quote From YourPrivateNightmare

          I don't think they're intentionally releasing broken cards.

           

          I think they're just idiots.

           

          Just wait out the first weeks after you're done testing half-baked theorcrafts. DH will get yet another nerf probably almost instantly. They have nothing to gain from making a single class the absolute best, even if they attract new players with it. At best those players will stay for 2 more expansions until they get frustrated.

          Every demon hunter card in this set so far is so far above every other card released. Even the legendary cards are lackluster for every class but demon hunter. Demon hunter gets better houndmaster shaw. warrior/rogue get captain greenskin. Demon hunter gets send a card to the bottom of your opponent's deck druid/hunter gets worse keleseth. And those are the power dual class legendaries. The normal ones are worse. Mage gets Dalaran Aspirant, Rogue gets worse Piloted Shredder that always summons Kobold Barbarian. Willow for warlock is only good in wild and rattlegore is a meme for a big style of a class that doesn't even exist in wild with Woecleaver

          Ace Hunter Kreen is nothing at all like Houndmaster Shaw. Glide and [Hearthstone Card (Star Student Selina) Not Found] don't send cards to the bottom of the deck, they shuffle them in randomly. Shan'do Wildclaw is not a strictly worse Keleseth, it just has a different deckbuilding requirement. Mozaki, Master Duelist is a million times better than Dalaran Aspirant. Your description of Infiltrator Lilian is kind of odd since a Piloted shredder that summoned a 4/4 is actually pretty good, and Lilian is better than that since she also has stealth. And I think it is a bit too early to judge Rattlegore since they might introduce more Big Warrior support this set.

          Stop exaggerating just to make things sound worse then they are. Demon Hunter has been nerfed several times and I don't think we need more nerfs yet. And I doubt having [Hearthstone Card (Star Student Selina) Not Found] shuffle a single one of your cards into your deck will be the end of the world. Glide may be a problem, but no Demon Hunter cards revealed so far strongly suggests that they will be an insanely power super OP unstoppable force. 

          • Quote From clawz161
            Show Spoiler
            Quote From KANSAS
            Quote From clawz161
            Quote From YourPrivateNightmare

            I don't think they're intentionally releasing broken cards.

             

            I think they're just idiots.

             

            Just wait out the first weeks after you're done testing half-baked theorcrafts. DH will get yet another nerf probably almost instantly. They have nothing to gain from making a single class the absolute best, even if they attract new players with it. At best those players will stay for 2 more expansions until they get frustrated.

            Every demon hunter card in this set so far is so far above every other card released. Even the legendary cards are lackluster for every class but demon hunter. Demon hunter gets better houndmaster shaw. warrior/rogue get captain greenskin. Demon hunter gets send a card to the bottom of your opponent's deck druid/hunter gets worse keleseth. And those are the power dual class legendaries. The normal ones are worse. Mage gets Dalaran Aspirant, Rogue gets worse Piloted Shredder that always summons Kobold Barbarian. Willow for warlock is only good in wild and rattlegore is a meme for a big style of a class that doesn't even exist in wild with Woecleaver

            Ace Hunter Kreen is nothing at all like Houndmaster Shaw. Glide and [Hearthstone Card (Star Student Selina) Not Found] don't send cards to the bottom of the deck, they shuffle them in randomly. Shan'do Wildclaw is not a strictly worse Keleseth, it just has a different deckbuilding requirement. Mozaki, Master Duelist is a million times better than Dalaran Aspirant. Your description of Infiltrator Lilian is kind of odd since a Piloted shredder that summoned a 4/4 is actually pretty good, and Lilian is better than that since she also has stealth. And I think it is a bit too early to judge Rattlegore since they might introduce more Big Warrior support this set.

            Stop exaggerating just to make things sound worse then they are. Demon Hunter has been nerfed several times and I don't think we need more nerfs yet. And I doubt having [Hearthstone Card (Star Student Selina) Not Found] shuffle a single one of your cards into your deck will be the end of the world. Glide may be a problem, but no Demon Hunter cards revealed so far strongly suggests that they will be an insanely power super OP unstoppable force. 

             

            Well, can't argue with that logic. I guess you win.

            Friendly

  • Okay, but you asked for this. Ace Hunter Kreen, is undoubtedly better than Houndmaster Shaw in demon hunter where all your minions are cheap and have high stats. It is intended to where you are on board already(something easy to do as demon hunter) and stay there unless your opponent is running a spell, or rush minion, or weapon, to remove the minion from your board. Houndmaster Shaw helped a class like hunter, whose cards were not busted like demon hunters with seizing the board advantage since they have no other real way of controlling the board other than minions.

     

    "Glide and Star [Hearthstone Card (Student Selina) Not Found] don't send cards to the bottom of the deck, they shuffle them in randomly." This one just made me laugh not gonna lie. You knew i was exaggerating but not for these apparently. But i'll still cover them just the same Glide is still bullshit because it makes control, who is supposed to be about keeping card advantage against aggro, regret that just like Divine Favor did, which they hall of famed for that reason. But they've been removing a lot of control tools for a while(Northshire Cleric, Vanish, making Equality, cost 4 because it was being abused in an aggro deck, instead of nerfing the actual cards that made that aggro deck work, etc etc.) Selina i don't think is as bad as glide is. But i don't play a lot of combo decks where you rely on reducing the price of one card in your hand, and the decks i do(gonk) i run 2 minions to reduce the cost of it anyway to cover my bases and help with reducing gonk in the first place. AKA if i'm playing against a demon hunter and i played my Imprisoned Satyr and it reduced my gonk or my faceless by five and my gonk or faceless was shuffled i had another satyr to reduce it again. Since it's a legendary it's not an effect i would have to worry about all game. But glide isn't a legendary effect.

     

    Shan'do Wildclaw Blizzard has been trying to make beast druid work for a long time. It's someone on the team's favorite archetype and i think someone should walk up to them and give them the mean girls talk:

    "Stop trying to make beast druid happen, it's not going to happen."

     

    Mozaki, Master Duelist Is a card i admit i could be sleeping on, in the right deck it could be better malygos, but it won't be. Mage is too busy playing random bullshit to make something like that happen. If you play it and leave it on the board hoping it'll be there next turn for your combo it won't be.

     

    Infiltrator Lilian Is just bad. I don't know if you remember, but Piloted Shredder was a good card and Kobold Barbarian was not. I could argue kobold smash is better than this legendary card. It has more health, it's cheaper, and it's an actual threat when you have it on board since no one knows where the attack will go. With lilian sure the attack is faster, but it can just hit something with two attack twice and die making it useless. As useful as she is in the scholomance instance itself, good flavor blizzard.

     

    Are you one of the random people that think Ceremonial Maul is somehow tech for big warrior. Because it's not.

     

    In closing i like where demon hunter is right now, i think the class is barely OP still. And is fine to play against. The problem is the design space is clearly the same as the old busted demon hunter cards where they don't playtest and we're back to square one with more cards that aren't fun to play against, and just auto win when you play them, because even though you mulligan an AOE against the aggro-centric class, specifically so you'll have it when you need it, they shuffled it away into your deck where you'll never see it again on turn four/five. 

  • If you want to take aim at Demon Hunter's class identity, as your thread title suggests, then go right ahead. The class' main problem in my eyes is that it is designed to be excellent at all the basics, meaning it has no serious weaknesses, and now making them kings of disruption as well is going to be problematic.

    But, that's not what you are doing here. You are making assumptions about the power levels of cards before seeing them in action, and letting those assumptions fuel anger before anyone can actually verify them. Of course the reveal season is all about making assumptions and projecting that forwards, but countless times people (and often the entire community) have called cards that end up seeing no play OP, or called some of the most notorious cards in the entire game trash.

    You may well be right in your assessments and do not need to give Blizzard a penny, but you can still show some patience here because if experience of reveal seasons tells us anything, it is that you cannot trust your early assessments.

    I won't engage in a discussion over all the cards you bring up, but I will wade in regarding Infiltrator Lilian to make a point. Your comparison to Piloted Shredder is appropriate, so let's break down that comparison and leave Kobold Barbarian out of it.

    • The first body is a 4/2 stealth vs a 4/3 mech. Which of these is better? Neither objectively, but most often I would take Lilian as it usually won't get caught in AoE crossfire unless you over-commit, and HS is a game which benefits the attacker more than the defender, so having more control on that with stealth is a significant plus point.
      • The mech tag can matter, but not much in rogue and certainly not in standard at the moment.
      • Meanwhile rogue wants things with stealth at the moment, so that's and extra plus.
    • What about the deathrattle: is a 4/2 instant random attack better than a random 2-drop? Again there is no objectively correct answer, but again I would side with Lilian here. Not only is 4/2 higher than average stats on a 2-drop, but similarly to stealth it denies your opponent the choice of how to deal with it before it attacks. Sure the attack won't always be optimal, but look at it this way: the worst it can do is run into the thing that your opponent would choose to trade into it with anyway.

    So all put together, Infiltrator Lilian is usually better than Piloted Shredder on all fronts. At the very worst then it is a solid card, and nowhere near the pits in which Kobold Librarian lives.

    You could also compare it to a Boom Bot, with the deathrattle always dealing 4 damage and possibly leaving a body behind too. Because the Boom Bot isn't a collectible card it is silly to read much into this, but keep in mind Boom Bots were always taken seriously and made Dr. Boom the first infamous card for good reason.

    • Quote From AngryShuckie

      If you want to take aim at Demon Hunter's class identity, as your thread title suggests, then go right ahead. The class' main problem in my eyes is that it is designed to be excellent at all the basics, meaning it has no serious weaknesses, and now making them kings of disruption as well is going to be problematic.

      But, that's not what you are doing here. You are making assumptions about the power levels of cards before seeing them in action, and letting those assumptions fuel anger before anyone can actually verify them. Of course the reveal season is all about making assumptions and projecting that forwards, but countless times people (and often the entire community) have called cards that end up seeing no play OP, or called some of the most notorious cards in the entire game trash.

      You may well be right in your assessments and do not need to give Blizzard a penny, but you can still show some patience here because if experience of reveal seasons tells us anything, it is that you cannot trust your early assessments.

      I won't engage in a discussion over all the cards you bring up, but I will wade in regarding Infiltrator Lilian to make a point. Your comparison to Piloted Shredder is appropriate, so let's break down that comparison and leave Kobold Barbarian out of it.

      • The first body is a 4/2 stealth vs a 4/3 mech. Which of these is better? Neither objectively, but most often I would take Lilian as it usually won't get caught in AoE crossfire unless you over-commit, and HS is a game which benefits the attacker more than the defender, so having more control on that with stealth is a significant plus point.
        • The mech tag can matter, but not much in rogue and certainly not in standard at the moment.
        • Meanwhile rogue wants things with stealth at the moment, so that's and extra plus.
      • What about the deathrattle: is a 4/2 instant random attack better than a random 2-drop? Again there is no objectively correct answer, but again I would side with Lilian here. Not only is 4/2 higher than average stats on a 2-drop, but similarly to stealth it denies your opponent the choice of how to deal with it before it attacks. Sure the attack won't always be optimal, but look at it this way: the worst it can do is run into the thing that your opponent would choose to trade into it with anyway.

      So all put together, Infiltrator Lilian is usually better than Piloted Shredder on all fronts. At the very worst then it is a solid card, and nowhere near the pits in which Kobold Librarian lives.

      You could also compare it to a Boom Bot, with the deathrattle always dealing 4 damage and possibly leaving a body behind too. Because the Boom Bot isn't a collectible card it is silly to read much into this, but keep in mind Boom Bots were always taken seriously and made Dr. Boom the first infamous card for good reason.

      Then why didnt people play Kaboom Bot

      • Quote From clawz161
        Then why didnt people play Kaboom Bot

        A good question, and it can be asked alongside Volatile Elemental. They are good comparisons with Lilian, and fortunately the main differences with the trusty old Boom Bot are very similar.

        Clearly having a 7/7 Dr. Boom is good in its own right, but by forcing the opponent's attention onto it, the lowly Boom Bots often get to attack. This lets them take advantage of Hearthstone's mechanics favouring the attacker, just like stealth does for Lilian. Meanwhile the Kaboom Bot and Volatile Elemental don't have this luxury: they are low statted for their cost and easily picked off, letting the opponent take advantage of being the attacker instead, and giving them more control over what the deathrattle hits.

        The second reason is more subjective: whether it is beneficial to be able to hit the opponent's face or not. I would argue that for this type of effect it is, because these minions are often killed when there are no minions of your opponent's side of the board. When that happens, Kaboom Bot is just a 3 mana 2/2, but a Boom Bot will at least guarantee some face damage. In a wider sense, being able to hit the face means you are guaranteed to do something beneficial. On certain board states it might be the worst outcome, but at least you cannot whiff completely.

        It is worth noting that on both of these matters Lilian is undoubtedly the strongest of them. After charge, and often but not always rush (note rush<stealth if the opponent has no minons), stealth is the best tool minions have to ensure they take advantage of attacking. And if Lilian attacks the face, you are left with a minion.

         

  • Probably better to have just created this thread right after the reveals are all done.

    After all, we have 1 week after all the reveals before the expansion gets released.

    Might do to also choose a more fitting title for the thread, because thus far I'm not seeing any discussion on the supposed identity of demon hunters.

    Friendly
    • Quote From dapperdog

      Probably better to have just created this thread right after the reveals are all done.

      After all, we have 1 week after all the reveals before the expansion gets released.

      Might do to also choose a more fitting title for the thread, because thus far I'm not seeing any discussion on the supposed identity of demon hunters.

      That's what i thought - the OP Post looks more like something that would belong in the Salt Thread. 

      Yes DemonHunter is strong and right now has one of the strongest Decks in the Meta, but also got Nerfed a lot. Yes some of the new cards we've seen so far are strong, but not only for Demon Hunter. I personaly don't see what all the fuzz is about.

  • Honestly, I like the direction the class is going. An aggro disrupter concept is obviously what they had in mind but it may have been too overwhelming at first. The only occurrences were Mana Burn and the Silence stuff.

    Now we see that DH can shuffle cards back into your deck which is TERRIFYING. This mechanic takes Illidan from being oh wow another smorcer to a real reason to tremble for fear of your plan. To me that is very enjoyable, I just really hope it was playtested correctly. Glide is going to lead to a lot of broken keyboards.

  • damn, talk about toxicity in the community. calm down yall, it's just a game

    • Quote From Helios

      damn, talk about toxicity in the community. calm down yall, it's just a game

      "People talking about cards released that are intentionally feel bad to play against, with no drawbacks"

       

      "Haha chill it's just a game bro"

       

      Because it's just a game there shouldn't be effects that change the direction from fun to "they just played a card that automatically makes me lose the game and there is nothing i can do about it."

  • If you come here and just read the intentional clickbait title and type salt thread, thinking you're the smartest person in the room. You might as well not do it at all.

    rick and morty jerry clones - GIF - Imgur

  • This thread kind of reminds me of the reaction to all the highlander cards being introduced last year when the bomb mechanic was already in the game, and here we are with these archetypes continuing to see play and win games.  Imo, the second expansion of the year should introduce some new archetypes and strengthen existing ones. In order to avoid those archetypes being completely busted, counters also need to be introduced.

    Also, the purpose of the reveal season is to get people talking about the expansion. What better way to do this than to put some controversial mechanics out there so that we can have debates about them?

    I'm not saying that none of the cards introduced so far wont be overpowered and need to be nerfed eventually, but I think it's too early to say that an archetype, or even an entire class, is completely broken when we've seen less than half of the new cards.

  • I'll just ignore the thread sofar, and answer the question posed in the title: What is DH's class identity (going forward)? Ace Hunter Kreen, Glide and Star Student Stelina are obviously the most interesting, since controversial cards revealed up until now. Let's look at them for their keyconcepts and their likely decks.

    Ace Hunter Kreen is the second DH card with immune, (there is "0 mana:your hero is immune this turn), and most similar to Commanding Shout and Kayn Sunfury. The latter was used as a finisher in all standard DH decks, while the former barely ever saw play. It falls right in line with their theme to attack first, (never ask questions later, and then edgyly mourn their own fate) and not being defensive.Comparing with Commanding Shout, Kreen does not seem so strong, because he will likely have less of an immeadiate effect on the opponents Health Total as doesKayn Sunfury- which incidentaly makes him better suited for slower, more controll-y decks. But just as with Kayn, this card is infuriating, because it does not follow central rules: attacking minions has a cost.

    Glide: draw up to four cards, for 4 mana, and maybe even f**k your opponent. Contrary to forum belief, I don't believe this to be overpowered. If you have a lead on the board, you can possibly pass a turn there, without it being your end. But in many cases, you pay most of your mana, and maybe only have enough left for a heropower or a 1-drop. Since DH has a lot of great drawing tools, Glide seems different for its outcast effect- 4mana, make your opponent "discard" up to 6 cards. But in the midgame, you lose a turn for a potential disruption, in the lategame, barely any deck but Priest has large hands. But here you can actually do something more than to play one card, which makes it best suited for the lategame. While it is infuriating- as seen above- I don't think it will be metadefining. I think it will only be included in more top-heavy DH-decks.

    Star Student Stelina: This bully hides other student's homework. That's unacceptable! Except, it's slightly above the power level of a child of Madame Lazul and Gnomeferatu. Some knowledge of your opponents hand, and if you were very lucky you destroyed a combo. It has less stats than most DH card's, and while you'll hate to see it played against you, it's mostly preventive, less aggressive. If the meta is combo-heavy, it will probably be played a lot, but it won't define the entire meta.

    And finally:Magehunter:  comparable to Keeper of the Grove after quest completion, this is a better owl, and combined with Beaming Sidekick it can possibly silence several minions! While it is proactive (rush) it is also defensivly statted, and -again- disruptive.

    There's also [Hearthstone Card (Cycle of vengeance) Not Found], which promotes both token and control archetypes, both of which haven't really seen play yet.

    In conclusion: The new DH cards are disruptive, less aggressive than in Ashes of Outland, while somewhat not traditional. Thus the DH class identiy is: being mean and cool. It feels unfair to play against, (while being mostly balanced now), and nice to play as one- while also being somewhat flashy and edgy.  While that is less of a traditonal class identy than most other classes, it's a good fit for the class overall.

     

     

  • heres my 2 cents on this 

    imo theres nothing that seems broken but there is some cards that are way stronger like the others like Ace Hunter Kreen for example its a wide spread immune and would probably be a auto include for most agro demon hunters

    Star Student Stelina isn't something that isn't 100% broken its a tech card the popularity of stelina will rise and fall depending on how many combo decks are in the meta if theres a lot of combo decks then stelina will basically be a auto include if theres next to no combo decks then stelina will not see play. Im saying this because stelina's purpose is to be a combo breaker not purely a disruption tool

    i don't have any opinion on  Glide its a cool card but could become a great disruption tool or it might never see play IDK.

    I personally don't think demon hunter is busted because of these cards but i do feel like demon hunter will still reign supreme in the meta just because of all of the agro that he brings he might not be like he was when outland first released but i wouldn't be surprised if kreen got nerfed

  • Demon Hunter identity feels like a [Hearthstone Card (Warlock Hunter) Not Found] dual class.