Hearthstone Designer Iksar was out on reddit talking to the community when he confirmed that once the Christmas holidays are over, he and the rest of the team will be getting back to work and one of the first things they are going to talk about is game balance.
The answer comes from a request for Blizzard to deal with Evolve Shaman, one of the strongest decks, if not the strongest, in Standard right now. Although we don't have an exact timing or details of changes, it looks like there's a patch planned for 3 weeks from now focusing on duels content which would be a great time to push in some card balance as well.
If you were in charge of balance changes, what cards would you change and how would you change them? Let us know in the comments below!
Quote From Iksar Can you fix evolve shaman which is ruining your primarily game mode before putting work into a minor achievement bug plsthx
We'll look at game balance when we get back in the office on Monday.
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Comments
You might want to justify some points instead of just dumping a list of common cards in ranked standard. What would the proposed nerf to Spirit Jailer even do, for a example. Another example would be [Hearthstone Card (bonechew brawler) Not Found]'s proposed nerf. To be 'in line with Pompous Thespian' would suggest making it a 2/3 taunt for 2. Unfortunately, there's already a card like that in Injured Tol'vir. So what will that change actually do? Its better for everyone if your inputs are more adequetely expressed.
Downvoted for quoting Original Poster, lol
Nope.
Your suggestions are terribe for msot part.
Bonechewer isnt even a problem like at all and NO one would play a vanilla 2mana 2/3 taunt.... just....
Fallen sun cleric is a terrible card and the decks that use horror arent problem and if wanna nerf make it just a 1/1 basicly half fungal mancer for about half the cost.
Zealot would be trash adn pure is weaker then non pure, and would be so trash youd not run it at all youd better of runnign regular pally(which is already better) and regular true silver. Also its about to rotate.
Hand of adal paladin is allowed to have a good buff and draw spell for once since CLASSIC.
Conjurer why ? secretmage is just one of many good decks in wild and would kill the card for standard where secret mage already isnt good.
Foxy Fraud if wanna nerf just make its a 2/2 so on own it can kill less things.
Phase stalker isnt a probllem at all and its Rotating after darkmoon faire and hunter has been really weak for ages in wild so lets not nerf it.
Libram no its not a problem at all and would make the card really weak and good chance of you know killing it.
Warblades is way overtop if wanna make lifesteal outcast give it more attack or more durability.
2 Shields would be weak then its just a very solid 3drop for palladin its allowed to have good cards.
Blur is good card now with buff and id like it personaly.
2/3 taunt is above par for 2 slot
Fallen Sun Cleric is gr8 4 it's cost, played it a lot
Zealot is powerful, Pure > Libroom
Good buff+cycle already proven problematic, Pally has good buffs btw
Secret Mage works fine w/o Conjurer & 8/8 on turn 5 is proven strong esp on 2 bodies
Foxy -1 ATK than vanilla doesn't make up a turn only 2 mana gain
Rotating soon not a point, Brann shows it perfectly, secret hunter's underplayed in wild
Phase Stalker strong since release, keeps face hunter tier 1 end of season
Libram is core to trading up in midgame and outvaluing lategame, designed 4 recycle
3/2 divine shield is a good card on 3, and spellburst added b/c class exclusive
Warblades nerf pushed Tempo DH to Aggro which Hunter already overpopulates
Thanks for the criticism, hard to read though.
2/3 Taunt with nothing isnt Above Par at all we had a 2/3 tautn that was actully a 2/6 in priest and it onyl saw play cuas ethe heal/when demg synergies. a 2/3 tuant wiht nothing ese is Garbage tier. And thespian as your example never saw any play at all it was a mediocre to bad arena card even back then
You don't have to quote the whole post since you are only referring to the first line of it.
3/2 was a step up considering the best early taunt at 3 mana was a 4/3 neutral or a 3/4 warrior card
1 mana for two less health is completely reasonable and neutral cards are purposely weaker.
Bonechewer Brawler is a neutral and synergizes well with tempo like voidwalker does
Speaking of Voidwalker, that is a class card and thus has the same statline of a 2 mana neutral if you factor taunt plus tribe.
Bonechewer Brawler is on par with Vulgar Homunculus with no downside.
Nerfs for Evolve Shaman
- Boggspine Knuckles, attack down to 2 from 4
- Lightning Bloom - refresh mana crystals instead of gain
The archetype still suffers from card draw and since its early game is so horrendous, nerfing the weapon's attack will go a long way in managing shaman until rotation, when most of the biggest problems of the deck (Desert Hare, Hoard Pillager, Mogu Fleshshaper) rotates away and the archetype loses at least half of its strengths.
In a sane world, that Lightning Bloom nerf would already been in effect. There's really nothing worse than seeing that knuckles come out early and completely tear you apart. In this case it even completely sidesteps its only counter in Kobold Stickyfinger
I'll be honest. The only reason why I'm even for a nerf is because evolve shaman is doing the same shit as giants mage in RoS is doing, and that is to put a tacit requirement to deal with its power card or die. In the latter's case, it was Mountain Giant on 4, and in evolve shaman's case its the knuckles. So every player out here is jamming stickyfingers to such a degree that no weapon with more than 2 durability can be played without severe consequences, and that basically destroys the viability of other decks not on the radar.
Personally I don't really mind evolve shaman, its the same tier 1 deck like most other tier 1 deck before it, and the fact that most of its cards rotate in a few months time makes me really reluctant to nerf anything. But when you do everything right against this deck that plays little to no early game, no board clears, only to find out that they can go from zero board to completely destroying you in a couple of turns, that's when we need to start talking about balance.
If refresh needs less overload though
0 Mana refresh 2 with NO down is what innervae shoudve been and been adecent to pretyt good card.
But fi added overoad 2 to it that makes card terrible, should at most be overload 1. Unless want to kill any use of the card then yeah do it with extra overload even.
I'm reading so much hate for Evolve in general and people are kinda missing the mark on this. I've been playing an off meta deck that is focused on controlling the board and I have NO problems with Evolve Shaman. I get annihilated by pretty much everything else, but that is where the power lies.
For Boggspine Knuckles, there are a number of things out there that deal with this,:
1) Acidic Swamp Ooze
2) Harrison Jones
3) Kobold Stickyfinger
4) even Bloodsail Corsair can help
The issue is that the current meta is able to keep getting the weapon with Hoard Pillager and Cagematch Custodian.
Being able to tutor it out of the deck early and then bring it back is where the issue lies. If Cagematch Custodian has it's cost increased and Hoard Pillager does the same thing as Rummaging Kobold, that would substantially slow the deck since it would then have to pay to re-equip it, effectively slowing the deck.
I'm only responding to your tech deck comment.
As you pointed out yourself, your deck has no problem with Evolve Shaman, but gets destroyed by everything else. How is this a good thing? Forget about climbing the ladder then if you don't want to join them? The culprit shaman deck is clearly out of balance and has completely warped the standard meta. Everyone has to run multiple Kobold Stickyfinger to even have a chance to slow them down enough to get a glimmer of chance for winning the matchup. Team5 is clearly okay with this dumbass deck running rampant for a while, coz this was quite easily predictable.
Off meta decks aren't necessarily good for laddering, that is what the main meta is. What I did was try to find a way to break down the Evolve Shaman issue... which was board control. If there aren't many things to evolve, then it's power becomes extremely limited. With that in mind, I just started putting in some anti-weapon cards that help my decks perform, or bring more control into the game and killing the board multiple times... Warlock is great at that right now.
True, I managed to claw into dumpster legend last season with my deck below using board control and only 1 single Kobold Stickyfinger. Still had a negative winrate against Evolve Shaman though, but I had no problems with the other meta decks out there. Running into shaman was no fun at all, but there was a small pocket where I ran into them less frequently.
lol, just got to legend again with this Galakrond Warlock today. I wasted almost all Evolve Shamans on the way, but probably some of them were less experienced with that deck.
I would still like to see some kind of nerf to that Shaman deck though. Most probably hit Boggspine Knuckles hard.
Cagematch Custodian is clearly a key part of it, but increasing its cost probably won't change very much since turns 1-4 are pretty passive anyway (unless they have Lightning Bloom). That would also hit the curve into Whack-A-Gnoll Hammer or other 3 mana weapons, seriously nerfing other decks which aren't a problem. Similarly, changing the Pillager would be hitting other decks.
The issue here is not really coming from any one card, but rather how we currently have a critical mass of cards with strong synergy with Boggspine Knuckles. It will likely resolve itself in April when several key pieces rotate out, and there is an argument for leaving things alone because of that. But people won't want the meta to be that stale for 3 months, and the only fair way to hit the deck is to hit a card that won't cause collateral damage elsewhere, which in this case probably means the Knuckles.
Here's a hot take: what if Dread Corsair was targeted? It has previously been a big part of rogue's dominance in RoS (which led to Preparation and Raiding Party getting nerfed), so it's clearly not as safe a card to be evergreen as it often feels. If there is indeed a Classic set overhaul coming up, I'd probably take the Corsair out then. It is probably too fair under normal circumstances to warrant a nerf though; it's not even used in most pirate decks for example, and few of those aren't also weapon-based.
Lets NOT nerf the first good card draw shaman has gotten
ANd no dont nerf corsair tis not an issue and is a classic revamp after darkmoon faire so even less reaosn to touch it and youd nerf otther decks aswell. And can nerf the dread corsair inetraction with just nerfing the attack of the weapon.
For once, Zyella, we are in agreement :) I was arguing for leaving the Custodian alone, and preferring leaving the Corsair to be handled in the Classic revamp (and even then I'm not arguing that strongly for it).
You mention incidentally nerfing other decks that aren't the problem... If they are using similar cards then it would impact them. With the change to Raiding Party, that hurt more decks than what was intended. It is part of the change in nerfs. are Boggspine Knuckles a problem, sure. There are a number of wild decks that are floating around using them. With that in mind, if you nerf that card, those other decks get impacted as well. No matter which way you look at it, there is always going to be collateral damage.
Right, but when there aren't normally so many valid options to target. In this case we have a genuine opportunity to minimise collateral damage, which still means hitting the Kuckles rather than the more widely used cards.
Options to balance evolve mechanic.
- Make Boggspine Knuckles a Battlecry
- Evolve can only affect active minions, not sleeping.
- or Give evolve a 50/50 chance of success to a minion.
But I doubt Team 5 will do that. They will go with the easier option, raising mana cost.
EDIT. and Hall of Fame cards shouldn't be playable I think. Even in the Wild.
