Hearthstone
Post-AoO look into the Demon Hunter Class
Okay, so we're near the end of the AoO expansion with one month left to go, and the next expansion will very likely be announced after the felfire festival, so let's have a look at demon hunter as a class throughout its introduction.
Identity
What the class was imagined to be was, aggressively stated minions, with powerful card draw options, and clears minions using the hero via weapons etc. Its weak to board clears, have weak card generation, and supposedly big minions.
Meta Tier Performance
This needs no mention. Dhunters are currently at the top of the tier in both standard and wild, and it used to be top in arena as well until it was taken down. Suffice to say if you crafted Kayn Sunfury, Warglaives of Azzinoth, and Metamorphosis you'll not be left disappointed throughout this expansion.
Admitably, its no longer so easy to play as dhunter, at least in standard. There's plenty of counters and with a third round of nerf/change, dhunters are actually only barely on top of standard. But if ranking up is your game, then dhunters are easy picks. Even amid nerfs, changes, counters and predictability, the deck can still win with multiple options for burst and tempo.
Variety of decks in Demon Hunter Class
There's currently five archetypes of varied viability other than tempo: control, highlander, big demons, combo and token. That's a lot considering that they have the least number of cards between the classes.
Control dhunter (introduced by pro hearthstone player Eddie) is surprisingly good. In the current meta, there's just not enough healing so this deck practically kills you using nothing but Warglaives of Azzinoth + Metamorphosis. Reload via Hoard Pillager and Vulpera Scoundrel. Its actually insane how much damage you can put down with only those two cards, not even mentioning Magtheridon and Zephrys the Great. The deck preys on druids, aggro-tempo decks, mages, priest and rogues on a good day.
Highlander lacks consistency but is far from unplayable. I personally don't like the deck, and have only played limited amounts of it even in its heyday. Cant comment much, but I dont recall ever losing a match to highlander dhunters.
Big dhunter is perhaps the most interesting. Its actually not half bad, but suffers from lack of value. Pit Commander is absolutely insane, as is Coilfang Warlord. Unfortunately, the deck lacks reload, and since all Galakrond decks basically out values it, its hard to play this deck without an overwhelming sense of being screwed.
Combo dhunters are dead, basically. With Twin Slice no longer at 0 mana, you can't activate [Hearthstone Card (kael'thas) Not Found] to do that massive 20 + damage anymore. Ironically now we all got our golden kael'thas, the card is no longer relevant in standard.
Token never got off and as it stands its not going anywhere. More than any other archetype for this class, I've experimented with token dhunters to no success worth mentioning. Wrathscale Naga is excellent, but because theres no way to consistently manipulate all the 3 damage to face, the combo isnt worth preparing for. Not to mention that token dhunters can't maintain much tempo and doesnt have available the burst damage needed even if they somehow manages to stick a board.
Has the class been a net positive to hearthstone as a game?
Fans have been clamoring for a new class ever since KotFT when everyone thought death knights would make an excellent class. They've got their wish, but perhaps not in the way they hoped. The class dominated so much in its early days that opinions on dhunters as a class cannot be anything less than scornful (at least from what I've seen in both this and hearthpwn forums/comments), both at how it was designed to be OP from the start, and the multiple nerfs it had to endure, including an early nerf coming 2 weeks after the expansion started (and announced a week after it started)
I'm of the opinion that unless the next expansion quickly introduces some better taunts and healing options, the class as it stands now is not a net positive for the game. That is mostly not because the class itself is problematic, but because tempo dhunters is messing around the way how an aggro deck should theoretically work like, and the available counters to it.
The basic gameplan of an aggro deck is to pump everything in the early turns to get them to lethal range before it eventually gets outvalued around turn 5 and above, while the opponent (if not an aggro deck itself) actively removes the board as efficiently as possible, stabilizes and present a counter board for lethal. If the aggro deck is able to continuously and consistently reload, i.e. zoolock via hp, aggro rogue, and now tempo dhunter, then clearing board is no longer efficient, and the way out now is to race while staying out of lethal range.
The problem currently: There's not enough good early game taunts. And with the identity thing that team5 is subjecting the classes to means that healing options are limited. In other words, you cannot have an aggro class with an aggressive draw engine without also providing decent (but not overpowered) counter options for midrange-control decks. Unsurprisingly, the only decks that competently counters tempo dhunters are warrior, and quest warlock.
Also, aggro deck mirrors used to be a battle of efficiency, planning and tempo. Now its just about playing around Warglaives of Azzinoth, with some traditional aggro decks (primarily murlocs and token) having absolutely no counter to how warglaives work.
This is basically what aggro rogue used to be (in the early days of RoS). Raiding Party at 3 mana and un-nerf prep was the skull of its time, and its late game burst with leeroy + [Hearthstone Card (wagglepick) Not Found] is comparable to Metamorphosis finisher turns. That deck was promptly nerfed, with many players expressing their disapproval with aggro rogue's dominance and gameplan. What made it bad then but acceptable now in dhunter?
Ironically, tempo dhunters are so efficient that its nearly impossible to consider any other archetypes in the same class. So this one archetype is not only screwing everyone but warrior, its also screwing itself.
What Next?
I don't necessarily think nerfing the class for any further should be warranted. As much as I think tempo dhunters is not healthy for hearthstone, a fourth change/nerf will be ridiculous, especially with an expansion incoming in a months time. I will list down what I personally think team5 should consider in the forthcoming expansion.
- No more new direct damage dealing spells or minions for dhunter class.
- Better early game taunts. Honestly just bring back Tar Creeper. I'd even go so far as to suggest that Wax Elemental would be a good fit for the current meta.
- A better replacement for Earthen Ring Farseer. nearly everthing in classic got powercrept, why not this one? a 3 mana 2/4 taunt that heals only face for 3 is a somewhat good card against aggro. Would also give Frozen Shadoweaver a run for her money.
- Late game value cards for dhunter class. Best still if its a demon. Maybe a 7 mana 4/4, summon a random demon at the end of your turn.
- Something to help out tempo in token dhunter. Maybe a 1 mana 1/2, give your illidari initiates +1+1. Or something like Goru the Mightree for illidari initiates.
What do you guys think about demon hunters as a class, and what future can we look forward to, with the forthcoming expansion in mind?
Leave a Comment
You must be signed in to leave a comment. Sign in here.
Okay, so we're near the end of the AoO expansion with one month left to go, and the next expansion will very likely be announced after the felfire festival, so let's have a look at demon hunter as a class throughout its introduction.
Identity
What the class was imagined to be was, aggressively stated minions, with powerful card draw options, and clears minions using the hero via weapons etc. Its weak to board clears, have weak card generation, and supposedly big minions.
Meta Tier Performance
This needs no mention. Dhunters are currently at the top of the tier in both standard and wild, and it used to be top in arena as well until it was taken down. Suffice to say if you crafted Kayn Sunfury, Warglaives of Azzinoth, and Metamorphosis you'll not be left disappointed throughout this expansion.
Admitably, its no longer so easy to play as dhunter, at least in standard. There's plenty of counters and with a third round of nerf/change, dhunters are actually only barely on top of standard. But if ranking up is your game, then dhunters are easy picks. Even amid nerfs, changes, counters and predictability, the deck can still win with multiple options for burst and tempo.
Variety of decks in Demon Hunter Class
There's currently five archetypes of varied viability other than tempo: control, highlander, big demons, combo and token. That's a lot considering that they have the least number of cards between the classes.
Control dhunter (introduced by pro hearthstone player Eddie) is surprisingly good. In the current meta, there's just not enough healing so this deck practically kills you using nothing but Warglaives of Azzinoth + Metamorphosis. Reload via Hoard Pillager and Vulpera Scoundrel. Its actually insane how much damage you can put down with only those two cards, not even mentioning Magtheridon and Zephrys the Great. The deck preys on druids, aggro-tempo decks, mages, priest and rogues on a good day.
Highlander lacks consistency but is far from unplayable. I personally don't like the deck, and have only played limited amounts of it even in its heyday. Cant comment much, but I dont recall ever losing a match to highlander dhunters.
Big dhunter is perhaps the most interesting. Its actually not half bad, but suffers from lack of value. Pit Commander is absolutely insane, as is Coilfang Warlord. Unfortunately, the deck lacks reload, and since all Galakrond decks basically out values it, its hard to play this deck without an overwhelming sense of being screwed.
Combo dhunters are dead, basically. With Twin Slice no longer at 0 mana, you can't activate [Hearthstone Card (kael'thas) Not Found] to do that massive 20 + damage anymore. Ironically now we all got our golden kael'thas, the card is no longer relevant in standard.
Token never got off and as it stands its not going anywhere. More than any other archetype for this class, I've experimented with token dhunters to no success worth mentioning. Wrathscale Naga is excellent, but because theres no way to consistently manipulate all the 3 damage to face, the combo isnt worth preparing for. Not to mention that token dhunters can't maintain much tempo and doesnt have available the burst damage needed even if they somehow manages to stick a board.
Has the class been a net positive to hearthstone as a game?
Fans have been clamoring for a new class ever since KotFT when everyone thought death knights would make an excellent class. They've got their wish, but perhaps not in the way they hoped. The class dominated so much in its early days that opinions on dhunters as a class cannot be anything less than scornful (at least from what I've seen in both this and hearthpwn forums/comments), both at how it was designed to be OP from the start, and the multiple nerfs it had to endure, including an early nerf coming 2 weeks after the expansion started (and announced a week after it started)
I'm of the opinion that unless the next expansion quickly introduces some better taunts and healing options, the class as it stands now is not a net positive for the game. That is mostly not because the class itself is problematic, but because tempo dhunters is messing around the way how an aggro deck should theoretically work like, and the available counters to it.
The basic gameplan of an aggro deck is to pump everything in the early turns to get them to lethal range before it eventually gets outvalued around turn 5 and above, while the opponent (if not an aggro deck itself) actively removes the board as efficiently as possible, stabilizes and present a counter board for lethal. If the aggro deck is able to continuously and consistently reload, i.e. zoolock via hp, aggro rogue, and now tempo dhunter, then clearing board is no longer efficient, and the way out now is to race while staying out of lethal range.
The problem currently: There's not enough good early game taunts. And with the identity thing that team5 is subjecting the classes to means that healing options are limited. In other words, you cannot have an aggro class with an aggressive draw engine without also providing decent (but not overpowered) counter options for midrange-control decks. Unsurprisingly, the only decks that competently counters tempo dhunters are warrior, and quest warlock.
Also, aggro deck mirrors used to be a battle of efficiency, planning and tempo. Now its just about playing around Warglaives of Azzinoth, with some traditional aggro decks (primarily murlocs and token) having absolutely no counter to how warglaives work.
This is basically what aggro rogue used to be (in the early days of RoS). Raiding Party at 3 mana and un-nerf prep was the skull of its time, and its late game burst with leeroy + [Hearthstone Card (wagglepick) Not Found] is comparable to Metamorphosis finisher turns. That deck was promptly nerfed, with many players expressing their disapproval with aggro rogue's dominance and gameplan. What made it bad then but acceptable now in dhunter?
Ironically, tempo dhunters are so efficient that its nearly impossible to consider any other archetypes in the same class. So this one archetype is not only screwing everyone but warrior, its also screwing itself.
What Next?
I don't necessarily think nerfing the class for any further should be warranted. As much as I think tempo dhunters is not healthy for hearthstone, a fourth change/nerf will be ridiculous, especially with an expansion incoming in a months time. I will list down what I personally think team5 should consider in the forthcoming expansion.
- No more new direct damage dealing spells or minions for dhunter class.
- Better early game taunts. Honestly just bring back Tar Creeper. I'd even go so far as to suggest that Wax Elemental would be a good fit for the current meta.
- A better replacement for Earthen Ring Farseer. nearly everthing in classic got powercrept, why not this one? a 3 mana 2/4 taunt that heals only face for 3 is a somewhat good card against aggro. Would also give Frozen Shadoweaver a run for her money.
- Late game value cards for dhunter class. Best still if its a demon. Maybe a 7 mana 4/4, summon a random demon at the end of your turn.
- Something to help out tempo in token dhunter. Maybe a 1 mana 1/2, give your illidari initiates +1+1. Or something like Goru the Mightree for illidari initiates.
What do you guys think about demon hunters as a class, and what future can we look forward to, with the forthcoming expansion in mind?
Great writing and suggestions!
Like most others, I agree that DH came out too powerful and its dominance on ladder is kinda boring. I totally agree that other DH archetypes need a boost without strengthening Tempo even more. I think this is the way to go.
Illidan's card pool also need some weakening like the introduction of some bad or underwhelming spells. Right now, a card like Vulpera Scoundrel is very likely to give you at least one OP option every time you play her. Illidans pool of possible generated cards is smaller and simply stronger than other classes but this will probably balance itself out with time.
Besides this, I actually really like most stuff about the DH class. Illidan himself as a hero, offensive gameplay, the new mechanics (Outcast, hero attacking synergy) and the flavor as a whole. Especially combined with the whole Outland expansion. Flavorful and fun, but there is still some balancing required. :)
The identity is where I really have a problem with the class, and it is useful to repeat something I said in another thread recently: DH is designed to be good or great at what I consider all the primary mechanics of the game, namely
Meanwhile every other class either has major weaknesses in the primary mechanics (e.g. rogue's lack of healing/taunt and AoE), or they are mediocre at most of them (e.g. shaman having tools for most situations, but they're normally worse than the versions in other classes).
It is all well and good having weaknesses like card generation, but that doesn't mean anything when you have great card draw and there's lots of good neutral card generators anyway, especially while they have a tiny pool of great cards to get off things like Vulpera Scoundrel and Cobalt Spellkin. Also, while they seem to lack hard removal, that is also pretty much irrelevant because they can a) ignore taunt and have silence, b) tend to kill you before big minions can be played, and c) they have enough pretty big removal to be able to take down all but the highest health minions anyway.
I genuinely think the only real weakness tempo DH has at the moment is its reliance on 2-health minions in the early game, which can be exploited but for how long?
So what I really hope to see is a fundamental change in class identity that strips them of one or two of the primary mechanics, replacing them with some more janky things to bring the class in line with the other 9 classes. But I doubt there is going to be an opportunity for that until next April, and even then only the DH Initiate set will leave.
I think everything could be fixed if DH had nothing between Face-Aggro and Big/Control.
Issue right now is that DH is too efficient and has too many options both with Face damage AND Tempo. Those two things, toppled by ridiculous card draw, break the paradigm of Aggro, as it was mentioned in the OP.
So my proposal is to nerf to the ground the bodies of all DH minions between (1) and (5), reducing their hp below average, and their attack barely at average levels.
Battlefiend should be 2/1 (yep, stronger attack, but pinging it away would be really easy). Glaivebound Adept should be 5/3, Kayn Sunfury should be 3/4 (or 4/3 or 4/2). And beaming sidekick to give just +1 (it's Neutral, but +2 is just too much at (1), compare with [Hearthstone Card (kuktiran chaplain) Not Found] and Kabal Talonpriest).
At that point, Frozen Shadoweaver can be put to rest at (4) (compare with spellbreaker).
That would leave Face DH available for flavor, but weak to Control and classic Tempo decks, by virtue of the board weakness on the DH side.
And if you want a better board, you go Big.
DH fixed forever, as long as they stick with the paradigm.
On a sidenote, I think the Rush Illidari bodies should never be buffed in any way, as you do not want DH to become a wide+tall class (it also makes little sense flavor-wise IMO).
One idea would be to take away all of the face options for the card effects: Altruis the Outcast, Glaivebound Adept, Metamorphosis, Priestess of Fury, Warglaives of Azzinoth, and Imprisoned Antaen. Then these cards would be used for board control, and the minions for face. And get rid of the AoE spells: Immolation Aura and Chaos Nova don't belong, and are insultingly powerful and efficient compared to the board clear options the "control" classes have or had. And print some weak class cards. And even after that the class would still probably be too powerful. But it would be a start.
"The screen door slams, Mary's dress sways"
I like your suggestion to the change in stats, except Battlefiend. I think as a 1/2 its already pretty weak, especially since Twin Slice is no longer 0 mana.
On the illidari bodies buffing, it all depends on what the activator is and how much mana. If its 2 mana to give a +1+1 then its still within acceptable ranges for me even if it gets thrown into tempo dhunters. There's only like 2 cards that generate those illidari initiates right now, and both rather suck in tempo dhunters anyway.
I just wanted some big payoff for token dhunters. Perhaps even a 4/4, 7 mana that reduces with every dead opposing minion. Either way, token feels really bad right now, and that's largely because of poor tempo. Giving these specific tokens +1+1 will give it a boost, but hardly game breaking.
Personally, I think Demon Hunter is a boring class to play, but I can understand other people having fun with it. I don't enjoy playing as it, or against it. What I don't want to see is more nerfs for the class. 4 rounds of nerfs in 4 months is simply ridiculous. I think the best way to fix Demon Hunter is to wait it out. Over time as more cards get added Illidan will have more cards to play, which means he will have more decks to play, which will hopefully make the class more interesting as a whole.
I do think as time passes we will see a handful of nerfs to some of Demon Hunters existing cards, but right now when those are the only cards the class has to play, they do need to be powerful. The main issue with the class is the low number of available cards. When a class only has 50 cards, and only half of them are good, then it makes sense for that class to feel repetitive and boring. The devs had to choose between a class that is repetitive and powerful, or a class that is repetitive and weak. Either way I feel a lot of people were going to be disappointed by the lack of variety in what the class does.
Carrion, my wayward grub.
I wasn't excited by getting a new class, I was more excited by seeing what a new class could get, if that makes sense. I knew the initial launch would be boring, but seeing how the class evolves is going to be extremely cool.
A man is lying on the street, some punks chopped off his head
I'm the only one who stops to see if he's dead.
Hmm. Turns out he's dead.
I think the Demon Hunter class was overall very well-designed. The Outcast mechanic, the class identity of being attack-based, the synergy of its core cards that formed its identity...everything was well-designed and thought of, and some classes would kill to have core cards as great as DH (looking at you, Paladin).
The main problem was how overtuned and overpowered everything was. 5-mana Skull of Gul'dan, Priestess of Fury, Altruis the Outcast, 0-mana Eye Beam...basically every nerfed card used to be oppressive that they just terrorized the meta from the start. The class was too efficient and powerful, as compared to the other classes whose identity and power level kind of bogged down due to numerous expansion sets and a weak core set to begin with.
I'm interested for DH to have more control-based archetypes in the next expansion. In fact, it's already got great tools for a variety of archetypes, and I won't be surprised if the class gets terrible cards in the next expansion to prevent it from dominating again. That said, I'm still excited to see what direction they'll take the class in for the future.
I can't say I agree entirely that the class was well designed. Its not like team5 needed reminders on how oppressive an aggro deck can get when its supplied with plenty of draw cards AND cheap tempo cards to boot. The nerfs/changes were timely, but corrective, after it was apparent that nothing else could match dhunters in its first iteration. The outcast mech, while interesting, means that the class can never be anything more than a deck that plays cheap cards (big dhunters are a good example. You'd play Sightless Watcher just to guarantee outcast effects). I look forward to them printing cards to guarantee outcast effects, or something to smooth out the problems when playing greedy decks.
That said, its all in the past now. Fundamentally dhunters are in a better spot in standard (its still broken in wild) than it has ever been. I agree that the other classes kinda got screwed with a weaker core set, but that's exactly what I think team5 should be working on instead of constant nerfs to dhunters.
I said this before, but I honestly will give Blizz the benefit of the doubt when it comes to DH's initial balance. They legitimately did not expect them to have so much tempo, because of the hero power. For the better part of their development, until three months before the announcement, their hero was 2 mana "Give your hero +1 Attack this. Can be used twice each turn." Giving them a hero power with basically the same effect at half the cost suddenly pushed their tempo through the roof, and most of the cards were probably already past initial design.
Five mana Skull makes sense in a world where the deck was too heavy to guarantee the Outcast. Three durability Aldrachi makes sense when you were probably only swinging for two. 2/2 Battlefiend makes sense when you were paying twice the mana to give it +1 Attack. Five mana 10/10 Imprisoned Antaen (which it was during the streamer summit) makes sense when that was the big finisher.
I agree that the current hero power is more fun, unique, and useful than what they had before. They just strangled themselves with the deadline. Clearly, the class needed more than a year to design properly.
I will say, my solution for Outcast in heavier decks is simple. Make them too slow for aggro decks to use. Four of the cards are card draw, three of them literally say "Outcast: Draw a card", and the other two are instant damage to minions. Give Outcast to card generation effects, big demons, stuff like that. It really shouldn't be on anything cheaper than five mana, at least for a little bit.
A man is lying on the street, some punks chopped off his head
I'm the only one who stops to see if he's dead.
Hmm. Turns out he's dead.
The outcast mech is one of those things that after 2 months of playing dhunters, I can safely say is only really viable for a deck playing a bunch of cheap stuff, i.e. aggro decks, or even control dhunter. It simply doesn't work with greedy decks or decks playing lots of high costed cards. In effect its to say that the mana cost of the card itself doesnt matter, its never going to be too slow for aggro. The only thing that matters is its effect, hence why we don't see Illidari Felblade in tempo dhunter. Skull of Gul'dan is 6 mana, and while there is a world where its too slow for aggro (viper notoriously avoids it like the plague before the the third nerf), the effect is just too strong to ignore. This is not replicated in big dhunters, for reasons stated.
So the best way forward is to create more cards that guarantees outcast in a way like Sightless Watcher, and to design it in such a way that it doesn't draw cards or deal direct damage. For the time being (until team5 decides to create the dhunter core classic set from the bunch of cards now), my opinion is that outcast should only have defensive, not offensive effects.