According to HSReplay winrate of Quest Mage currently is 60+% for most refined lists. Also this deck is, along with Quest Warlock, the most toxic deck in current meta.
Absurd mana cheating? - Check
Solitaire gameplay? - Check
Zero minion interactivity? - Check
Next to no other counterplay than aggro it down? - Check
Freeze mechanics? - Check
Draws AND plays 15 cards in one turn? - Check
Kills from hand with no board in single turn? - Check
To get good stats for higher ranks, I usually look at Vicious Syndicate. It’s not updated as frequently, but it shows you stats for high Diamond, Legend, and top Legend. Their last report before the nerfs showed Quest Mage at 47-49%, depending on which slice you look at. Meanwhile, it was played 12% of the time outside of Legend, which is pretty amazing. Presumably most of those people chose the deck because they liked it.
Post-nerf, Mage has improved. The brand new report shows it at 50-51%, though at it’s peak it’s only the 11th-best deck. Playrate has only increased about 1%, interestingly enough.
I agree that RPS metas are unhealthy, and it does feel to me like there has been some aspect of that lately. But other people who should know the data are saying that’s less the case than in the past, so I don’t know.
I will say that there has been no recent deck I’ve hated as much as some is the grindy control decks of the past that left you trapped with nothing to do for the last 10 minutes of the game: Rez Priest, Dr. Boom Warrior, that awful OTK Paladin…
Quest mage's win rate according to hsreplay is over 55%. Granted I don't have a premium account so I can't give you a bigger picture, but its clear enough that quest mage is not a below 50% win rate deck. Its a polarizing deck that only really loses to either a burn end game or a combo faster than it can finish the quest, or a deck tailor made to beat it. To put simply, quest mage loses hard to some decks while unconditionally beating others and in my books that's not healthy for the meta. Outside of that, the deck is clearly being heavily played, and is highly resistant to tempo style decks, which is a fundamental part of the game. I can assure you quest mage is not a bad deck, unlike the earlier garrote shark rogue, which at very least require some skill to pull off.
If the devs cant figure this out, then Im at a loss. Because its been quite some time since I last had so little motivation to move up ranks.
On the love-hate thing. Well, that's something no one but blizz can answer because only they have the data to prove it. But looking at what little evidence we have clearly its not a well liked deck among a good portion of the community, and hardly anyone ever rises up to defend it, and Ive seen people defend face hunter and tickatus decks. You are right in pointing out that people are often more vocal about what they hate, but if there's more hate now than before (and that's what we have now), what would that in turn tells us?
I don't think its the case. Because after all, quest mage is still alive and kicking, and as far as standard is concerned that's basically one of the most hated deck right now. Face hunter is equally loathed for multiple expansions and yet never seems to get any nerfs (barring Kolkar Pack Runner). And of course, one of the most infamous example of a very much hated card with low win rates: Tickatus, which has gone through 2 expansions unchanged. Not that Im supporting devs to start nerfing cards whenever they hear an 8 yr old crying in the distance, but its fairly obvious that there's a more robust criteria for nerfing cards.
Two-part answer:
1) I think Dean’s point is that BOTH power and perception play a role, but perception is the bigger one. So a hated card with a 52% WR gets the bat, while a 52% WR card that people accept does not. But that doesn’t mean a hated 47% WR card gets nerfed. The power of the outcry only goes so far.
Quest Mage has been below 50% for most of its lifetime, so despite the hate it gets I don’t think it looks like a problem to the devs. (Since the latest balance changes, it’s crept up to about 51%. We’ll see if that’s enough.) And Tickatus, of course, has always been dumpster tier. Dean said many times that Tickatus was toast if it started winning games. The fact that he was thinking so much about a weak card is evidence that perception influences him.
2) You say that these cards are hated, but you didn’t mention that they’re also loved. Quest Mage stayed super-popular even with bad performance because many people liked it. Tickatus was played because people thought it was fun. (A point Dean made many times in his AMAs.) And Face Hunter is a consistently popular deck even when it’s not tier 1 - a lot of players really love it.
People are always more vocal on message boards about what they hate, but a successful game has to be designed around what people love. It’s a tough balancing act, and I think Team 5 handles it better than most people realize.
2nd October update: Boltzmann's Shudderwock Shaman: Who needs Reno Jackson, when you have Varian!
After the banishment of Seedlock, more iterations of Shudderwock Shaman become viable! This is a Boltzmann deck. Notice that there is no Reno Jackson. Instead, we have Varian, King of Stormwind.
In my opinion all they needed to do is to simply have the mage cast all three spells in one turn or it resets. That way they cant just clear and freeze everything and expect to still finish quest by turn 7. It'll also more or less remove ice barrier as an option, and playing cards like incanter's flow or board clears are at the expense of finishing the quest.
I like your suggestion. Though Im sure team5 will tell you that its too confusing to new players. It makes it harder to play stuff like Refreshing Spring Water, which is also why I think it'll absolutely just kill quest mage - and I can live very well with that.
We even had some example Stormwind heroes like @Kripparrian the Stormwind Guard.
I think we're all in agreement that we absolutely need this now that it's mentioned. It's such a cool idea, as it supports the streamers and could even highlight smaller streamers as well if it becomes popular.
Another idea could be streamer cosmetics? Like imagine Slyssa Xyrella or Kripp Millhouse cosmetics. I'd totally buy those
That seems much more flavorful seeing as the reward is infinite spell damage +3 and we'd need to play 3 spell damage minions. I'd change the wording though, coz you'd need to play the minion, not cast it like a spell
People are crying over Wild, but that format and Classic are, ironically, 3X better than Standard, lol.
This is just so untrue. There's even several top wild players who are moving to standard because wild is so boring, in big part due to odd hunter.
Standard has one polarizing deck currently and that's mage. Which loses to about half of the current meta decks, and there are a lot of different decks viable right now.
It's so stupid you have to pay Gold, and that much gold as well, to play the gacha. I don't understand why those aren't free, they should not be like that at all. This is like Constructed costed Gold besides the cards.
Most of the changes we make are due to perception. I'd only really consider something truly imbalanced if win rates are exceeding 54-55%. That usually only happens 0-1 times per set
I don't think its the case. Because after all, quest mage is still alive and kicking, and as far as standard is concerned that's basically one of the most hated deck right now. Face hunter is equally loathed for multiple expansions and yet never seems to get any nerfs (barring Kolkar Pack Runner). And of course, one of the most infamous example of a very much hated card with low win rates: Tickatus, which has gone through 2 expansions unchanged. Not that Im supporting devs to start nerfing cards whenever they hear an 8 yr old crying in the distance, but its fairly obvious that there's a more robust criteria for nerfing cards.
Play rate is probably a more important criteria, judging by previous q&a. Just about every card they nerfed so far in stormwind has something to do with that. Which might explain why garotte rogue wasn't really targetted the last 3 nerfs and yet Irebound Brute was.
On the subject; just nerf that bs Sorcerer's Gambit already. Quest mage remains one of the most played and is still one of the most played today even after that Incanter's Flow nerf. Can we please have a mage with a gameplan that doesn't involve casino dice rolling or being a mostly single-player experience?
Now the only question in terms of the economics I have for this mode is the probabilities of portraits showing up in packs. And when it shows up, what are the probabilities of different rarities. And this is an important question in terms of the decision making on whether you should buy the pre-orders or not.
Good to know that I can finally stop pre-ordering Mega Bundles since absolutely nothing in this game is exclusive anymore. Thanks for saving me $80 every 4 months Bli$$ard, love you!
If I was playing Mercs and then went to bed or was logging off for the day, I'd 100% have Mercenaries hanging out in the Training Hall. No reason to not gain free progress on them!
Then I cant see why you're complaining because quest priest only farms these decks. Plus, quest priest is hardly a scourge of the current meta; you'll be lucky to even meet one.
If it makes you feel better, quest mage, which is currently one of the highest played deck in the meta, destroys quest priest with both hands tied behind its back. So if priest is making you feel miserable, you'll be glad to know its getting regularly destroyed whenever its played.
Dean Ayala's Hearthstone Community Q&A #31 - Bigger Expansion to End 2022, Warcraft Diversity, Battlegrounds Streamer Heroes, and More
This is the target, to kill the quest.
According to HSReplay winrate of Quest Mage currently is 60+% for most refined lists. Also this deck is, along with Quest Warlock, the most toxic deck in current meta.
BTW, I encounter it every 3-4 games.
Dean Ayala's Hearthstone Community Q&A #31 - Bigger Expansion to End 2022, Warcraft Diversity, Battlegrounds Streamer Heroes, and More
I know a lot of folks here don't actually keep up with the competitive meta scene, but Quest Mage is actually far from nerf worthy.
Also, that would absolutely kill the questline
All Bounties Present in Hearthstone Mercenaries at Launch Including Boss Fights, Regions, and Mercenary Rewards
You are not going to get this info prior to tens of thousands of ppl opening their merc packs and even after that it will only be an approximation.
Dean Ayala's Hearthstone Community Q&A #31 - Bigger Expansion to End 2022, Warcraft Diversity, Battlegrounds Streamer Heroes, and More
To get good stats for higher ranks, I usually look at Vicious Syndicate. It’s not updated as frequently, but it shows you stats for high Diamond, Legend, and top Legend. Their last report before the nerfs showed Quest Mage at 47-49%, depending on which slice you look at. Meanwhile, it was played 12% of the time outside of Legend, which is pretty amazing. Presumably most of those people chose the deck because they liked it.
Post-nerf, Mage has improved. The brand new report shows it at 50-51%, though at it’s peak it’s only the 11th-best deck. Playrate has only increased about 1%, interestingly enough.
I agree that RPS metas are unhealthy, and it does feel to me like there has been some aspect of that lately. But other people who should know the data are saying that’s less the case than in the past, so I don’t know.
I will say that there has been no recent deck I’ve hated as much as some is the grindy control decks of the past that left you trapped with nothing to do for the last 10 minutes of the game: Rez Priest, Dr. Boom Warrior, that awful OTK Paladin…
Dean Ayala's Hearthstone Community Q&A #31 - Bigger Expansion to End 2022, Warcraft Diversity, Battlegrounds Streamer Heroes, and More
Quest mage's win rate according to hsreplay is over 55%. Granted I don't have a premium account so I can't give you a bigger picture, but its clear enough that quest mage is not a below 50% win rate deck. Its a polarizing deck that only really loses to either a burn end game or a combo faster than it can finish the quest, or a deck tailor made to beat it. To put simply, quest mage loses hard to some decks while unconditionally beating others and in my books that's not healthy for the meta. Outside of that, the deck is clearly being heavily played, and is highly resistant to tempo style decks, which is a fundamental part of the game. I can assure you quest mage is not a bad deck, unlike the earlier garrote shark rogue, which at very least require some skill to pull off.
If the devs cant figure this out, then Im at a loss. Because its been quite some time since I last had so little motivation to move up ranks.
On the love-hate thing. Well, that's something no one but blizz can answer because only they have the data to prove it. But looking at what little evidence we have clearly its not a well liked deck among a good portion of the community, and hardly anyone ever rises up to defend it, and Ive seen people defend face hunter and tickatus decks. You are right in pointing out that people are often more vocal about what they hate, but if there's more hate now than before (and that's what we have now), what would that in turn tells us?
Dean Ayala's Hearthstone Community Q&A #31 - Bigger Expansion to End 2022, Warcraft Diversity, Battlegrounds Streamer Heroes, and More
Two-part answer:
1) I think Dean’s point is that BOTH power and perception play a role, but perception is the bigger one. So a hated card with a 52% WR gets the bat, while a 52% WR card that people accept does not. But that doesn’t mean a hated 47% WR card gets nerfed. The power of the outcry only goes so far.
Quest Mage has been below 50% for most of its lifetime, so despite the hate it gets I don’t think it looks like a problem to the devs. (Since the latest balance changes, it’s crept up to about 51%. We’ll see if that’s enough.) And Tickatus, of course, has always been dumpster tier. Dean said many times that Tickatus was toast if it started winning games. The fact that he was thinking so much about a weak card is evidence that perception influences him.
2) You say that these cards are hated, but you didn’t mention that they’re also loved. Quest Mage stayed super-popular even with bad performance because many people liked it. Tickatus was played because people thought it was fun. (A point Dean made many times in his AMAs.) And Face Hunter is a consistently popular deck even when it’s not tier 1 - a lot of players really love it.
People are always more vocal on message boards about what they hate, but a successful game has to be designed around what people love. It’s a tough balancing act, and I think Team 5 handles it better than most people realize.
Are you enjoying HS now?
Yeah its great! I haven't played in weeks lol.
Darkseeker's channel - 13th November update: KOtsosKOtsos' Reno Evolve Shudderwock Shaman - ft. Archivist Elysiana
2nd October update: Boltzmann's Shudderwock Shaman: Who needs Reno Jackson, when you have Varian!
After the banishment of Seedlock, more iterations of Shudderwock Shaman become viable! This is a Boltzmann deck. Notice that there is no Reno Jackson. Instead, we have Varian, King of Stormwind.
"Woe betide those who set themselves against me."
Deck code: AAEBAaoIEvoO+b8Ci84Cq+cCw+oC4OoC7/cCoIADtZgDvZkDk8IDlc0DqO4Dpu8D2fkDhvoDqIoEl6AEBt/EApvLApLkA+PuA5TwA/2fBAA=
https://youtu.be/7TcUU13IdNM
Dean Ayala's Hearthstone Community Q&A #31 - Bigger Expansion to End 2022, Warcraft Diversity, Battlegrounds Streamer Heroes, and More
In my opinion all they needed to do is to simply have the mage cast all three spells in one turn or it resets. That way they cant just clear and freeze everything and expect to still finish quest by turn 7. It'll also more or less remove ice barrier as an option, and playing cards like incanter's flow or board clears are at the expense of finishing the quest.
I like your suggestion. Though Im sure team5 will tell you that its too confusing to new players. It makes it harder to play stuff like Refreshing Spring Water, which is also why I think it'll absolutely just kill quest mage - and I can live very well with that.
Are you enjoying HS now?
It is sad but a daily quest saying "Survive until turn 10" would be very hard to finish. I do not like UiS and especially quest made.
Dean Ayala's Hearthstone Community Q&A #31 - Bigger Expansion to End 2022, Warcraft Diversity, Battlegrounds Streamer Heroes, and More
I think we're all in agreement that we absolutely need this now that it's mentioned. It's such a cool idea, as it supports the streamers and could even highlight smaller streamers as well if it becomes popular.
Another idea could be streamer cosmetics? Like imagine Slyssa Xyrella or Kripp Millhouse cosmetics. I'd totally buy those
Dean Ayala's Hearthstone Community Q&A #31 - Bigger Expansion to End 2022, Warcraft Diversity, Battlegrounds Streamer Heroes, and More
That seems much more flavorful seeing as the reward is infinite spell damage +3 and we'd need to play 3 spell damage minions. I'd change the wording though, coz you'd need to play the minion, not cast it like a spell
Dean Ayala's Hearthstone Community Q&A #31 - Bigger Expansion to End 2022, Warcraft Diversity, Battlegrounds Streamer Heroes, and More
And it has been historically heavy on green males too.
Warcraft has always been diverse in relation to race. Humans, orcs, dwarfs, elves, trolls...
But yes, we need more diversity! When gets the hoard finally its first lesbian transgender black warchief?!
Dean Ayala's Hearthstone Community Q&A #31 - Bigger Expansion to End 2022, Warcraft Diversity, Battlegrounds Streamer Heroes, and More
Suggestion to nerf the gambit - this would apply to all 3 stages
Are you enjoying HS now?
This is just so untrue. There's even several top wild players who are moving to standard because wild is so boring, in big part due to odd hunter.
Standard has one polarizing deck currently and that's mage. Which loses to about half of the current meta decks, and there are a lot of different decks viable right now.
How Expensive Are Hearthstone's Mercenaries Buildings? Includes the New Training Grounds Building
It's so stupid you have to pay Gold, and that much gold as well, to play the gacha. I don't understand why those aren't free, they should not be like that at all. This is like Constructed costed Gold besides the cards.
Dean Ayala's Hearthstone Community Q&A #31 - Bigger Expansion to End 2022, Warcraft Diversity, Battlegrounds Streamer Heroes, and More
I don't think its the case. Because after all, quest mage is still alive and kicking, and as far as standard is concerned that's basically one of the most hated deck right now. Face hunter is equally loathed for multiple expansions and yet never seems to get any nerfs (barring Kolkar Pack Runner). And of course, one of the most infamous example of a very much hated card with low win rates: Tickatus, which has gone through 2 expansions unchanged. Not that Im supporting devs to start nerfing cards whenever they hear an 8 yr old crying in the distance, but its fairly obvious that there's a more robust criteria for nerfing cards.
Play rate is probably a more important criteria, judging by previous q&a. Just about every card they nerfed so far in stormwind has something to do with that. Which might explain why garotte rogue wasn't really targetted the last 3 nerfs and yet Irebound Brute was.
On the subject; just nerf that bs Sorcerer's Gambit already. Quest mage remains one of the most played and is still one of the most played today even after that Incanter's Flow nerf. Can we please have a mage with a gameplan that doesn't involve casino dice rolling or being a mostly single-player experience?
Dean Ayala's Hearthstone Community Q&A #31 - Bigger Expansion to End 2022, Warcraft Diversity, Battlegrounds Streamer Heroes, and More
I want to be the Mayor of Value Town so bad
All Bounties Present in Hearthstone Mercenaries at Launch Including Boss Fights, Regions, and Mercenary Rewards
Now the only question in terms of the economics I have for this mode is the probabilities of portraits showing up in packs. And when it shows up, what are the probabilities of different rarities. And this is an important question in terms of the decision making on whether you should buy the pre-orders or not.
All Bounties Present in Hearthstone Mercenaries at Launch Including Boss Fights, Regions, and Mercenary Rewards
All three are strong, and all three are the legendaries.
Rastakhan's Rumble and Saviors of Uldum Pre-Order Hero Skins Have Returned - Buy King Rastakhan and Elise Starseeker
Good to know that I can finally stop pre-ordering Mega Bundles since absolutely nothing in this game is exclusive anymore. Thanks for saving me $80 every 4 months Bli$$ard, love you!
Rastakhan's Rumble and Saviors of Uldum Pre-Order Hero Skins Have Returned - Buy King Rastakhan and Elise Starseeker
True. Just looking at the shop now disgusts me.
Hearthstone Mercenaries Goes Full Pokemon - The Training Hall Brings Daycare to Level Up Your Mercenaries Automatically
If I was playing Mercs and then went to bed or was logging off for the day, I'd 100% have Mercenaries hanging out in the Training Hall. No reason to not gain free progress on them!
Are you enjoying HS now?
Then I cant see why you're complaining because quest priest only farms these decks. Plus, quest priest is hardly a scourge of the current meta; you'll be lucky to even meet one.
If it makes you feel better, quest mage, which is currently one of the highest played deck in the meta, destroys quest priest with both hands tied behind its back. So if priest is making you feel miserable, you'll be glad to know its getting regularly destroyed whenever its played.
Hearthstone Mercenaries Goes Full Pokemon - The Training Hall Brings Daycare to Level Up Your Mercenaries Automatically
*Guff ignores you and uses SPLASH because he doesn't want to hurt anyone!*
FFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK!!!