I can't say what the actual new player experience is like, but I would probably suggest any new player to first stick to normal, labs, and expeditions so that they can build up their collection. Like FenrirWulf said, a lot of players at low ranks (myself included) are just players that aren't interested in ranking up. The reason they do occasionally want to try out a deck in ranked is probably to see if a certain deck holds up or because they want to see how different the ranked experience is from normal.
I mean. I'm not the game designer. And I have nothing against control decks. I like playing them.
But has anyone considered that giving control blockers that replace themselves could be problematic? I would have expected a few of them either would have 0 power, or couldn't block. But getting chumps that can potentially kill on block, and also replace themselves with a good spell is a bit much.
When I looked at the Targon cards. All I saw was a boost to control. I did see the synergy with Noxus, but those decks will be easier to deal with than the control ones. The 4/5 is a pretty good roadblock for something that gives you a card.
And if I ever See a Taric next to a karma. I'll probably just concede.
Well, it's as stupid as it looks. The whole expansion is a joke. Dilettante and amateurish design. A nonsense. ...Intended for numerous clueless casual mobile players.
I don't really disagree with the idea that the design of Call of the Mountain is amateurish (which, as it happens, means exactly the same thing as the adjective form of "dilettante"), but I do take issue with your characterizing it as "for clueless casual mobile players." Nothing about truly bad design supports any group of players - mobile, casual, or pro - and hating on casual players doesn't really help anyone. If you have one or more critiques of the design, please share them. But hating on a player group and calling the expansion "stupid" isn't a very productive way to engage in a discussion.
Do we really think we are in a position to decide in less than a week whether the design of Call of the Mountain was amateurish? Sure, the first 2-3 days were basically a blitz of almost all the same couple of decks. But now (like most other times in the game's history) I'm seeing a remarkable array of different viable decks and strategies. Cards that were laughed off as being unplayable are being played with brutal efficiency (Nocture and Diana, to name two).
I think the set is shaping up to be quite fun, diverse, and well-designed.
Glad you liked the latest issue! I can totally agree with Thassa being better in Azorius with Yorion as the latter is overall a stronger flicker commander in my opinion, as well as giving access to another color always being a strong selling point.
As for the cards mentioned, A lot of them are great but fall short in some way or another and were essentially the reason why they weren't included.
Gadwick is a great source of card draw once since we cannot continue to pay for X on his reentry. While him triggering once is still typically good enough, it is also a fairly big mana sink and in my testing, I usually had other things I wanted to spend my mana on.
Brazen Borrower was originally in the deck because it's a great tool for interaction and the body is pretty nice, but ended up dropping it in exchange for Essence Scatter since I was running into matchups where the body was not useful and the bounce effect was not worth running on its own.
Arcanist's Owl has two main issues, at least for this version of the deck. The first being that it is fairly light on artifacts and enchantments and so it would whiff on it a fair amount, and the second being that hybrid mana is weird and despite it being able to run in a mono-blue deck, it is considered to be blue and white. I can definitely see it doing work in an Azorius flicker deck if built in a specific way, but unfortunately, it cannot be in a deck with Thassa at the helm.
Solemn Simulacrum is great, already in the deck, and is an absolute powerhouse. He's one of my favorite cards in Commander and is definitely one of them here.
And yeah, hopefully, the set brings along a whole bunch of new tools to mess around with. Despite not enjoying this deck as much as I originally thought I would, I still absolutely love flicker decks and would be ecstatic if the archetype got more support in the upcoming set.
You can also see them in the client under the “special categoriess” section of the card search menu thing. It’s under the part where you can filter cards by expansion.
I think 2x Hush is fine -- 3x would definitely be too much, and 1x will be a "sometimes it's there when you need it and sometimes it's not" condition.
Ideally 3x Vi, but I imagine you're short on crafting resources. And I would probably change from 2x Vault Breaker to 2x Zenith Blade, possibly 3x if you can find a spot.
If you were just trying to figure out if it is worth including Invoke cards into your deck: the answer is probably "yes" -- they seem quite successful.
rezing braum is only good in very select situations.
Agreed. The one really nice thing is that now with Braum 2.0, you're almost guaranteed to get a free 3/3 Mighty Poro along with him (the rez'ed copy totally restarts the count), and that can often be relevant.
I mean. I'm not the game designer. And I have nothing against control decks. I like playing them.
But has anyone considered that giving control blockers that replace themselves could be problematic? I would have expected a few of them either would have 0 power, or couldn't block. But getting chumps that can potentially kill on block, and also replace themselves with a good spell is a bit much.
When I looked at the Targon cards. All I saw was a boost to control. I did see the synergy with Noxus, but those decks will be easier to deal with than the control ones. The 4/5 is a pretty good roadblock for something that gives you a card.
And if I ever See a Taric next to a karma. I'll probably just concede.
Well, it's as stupid as it looks. The whole expansion is a joke. Dilettante and amateurish design. A nonsense. ...Intended for numerous clueless casual mobile players.
I don't really disagree with the idea that the design of Call of the Mountain is amateurish (which, as it happens, means exactly the same thing as the adjective form of "dilettante"), but I do take issue with your characterizing it as "for clueless casual mobile players." Nothing about truly bad design supports any group of players - mobile, casual, or pro - and hating on casual players doesn't really help anyone. If you have one or more critiques of the design, please share them. But hating on a player group and calling the expansion "stupid" isn't a very productive way to engage in a discussion.
Actually, there's no hate towards the mentioned numerous player group. No ethical implications in saying 'clueless' ...just a factual description of that group's legitimate approach to the game. They don't play the game as seriously and knowledgeably as some other groups... yet, and not from their requesting, recent design favors that kind of chaotic, wacky fun, "whatever" approach where the game breaks many fundamental rules and starts to correct / interfere in decision making of players to help those whose decisions are not refined compared to those of dedicated players. Making outcomes more equal. Flattering to that group is always a finger in the eye to the smaller dedicated group of players (who will find the game becoming ugly). And the reason for all of this is that LoR unfortunately hasn't become popular enough and HS is still much more prominent game. They want to sell new content, too. Why my rant is sharp is because LoR was advertised as the card game which will get rid of all those bad, annoying and populist aspects found in HS. Now they are not satisfied with the status of their game and want to attract numbers at the expense of, again, dedicated players. Which is legitimate, but I dislike it from MY point of view, which is more important to me then some other's. Why is this obvious? Because they are cynically and carelessly implementing back all the criticized HS concepts x 3 recently! Times 3, hey! Not coincidental. These levels of yoink, uncontrollable rng discover, pushed dumb toxic cards, cheap strategies, non-interactivity, untested pile of keywords, non-games... can't be found even in HS! LoR now suddenly wants to be more like HS (but in fact getting worse than it). Maybe this approach will end up being good for them, but maybe it'll achieve no gain, while alienating their initial loyal groups. There could be another reason for all of this - maybe they just don't know what they are doing! In that case, woe to us even more.
Thanks for the latest issue, I appreciate it. I think I'm in a kind of love-hate relationship with Thassa, she can be pretty cool but also really annoying. Quite a few of the presented cards will rotate out of standard soon though as you said. Here a couple of other non-rotating considerations:
Gadwick the Wizened (draw engine)
Brazen Borrower (not abusable with blink but great instant speed removal with body)
Arcanist's Owl (flyer with tutoring)
Solemn Simulacrum (some late deck ramping and thinning)
That said the mono-blue version could use a late game win condition other than Oracle, currently I'm seeing Thassa almost exclusively in Azorius to abuse Yorion. But we'll see what the next set brings. :)
Now that the expansion has been out for a couple days players have gotten over their initial impressions of the set and we can talk about honest to god counters to Targon as a region.
I wanted to lay out a few of the findings I have found personally.
1. Lulu and Taric aren't very good against decks with high levels of interactivity.
- The essential weakness of support as a playstyle is that it requires that you develop into your board.
- For example you play this into a 1 drop and you get hit by make it rain, vile feast, or static shock
2. Slow Rampy Targon lists and card advantage lists get beat out by nab and Ionia
- Let's say you're playing dragons, Ionia isn't going to care because they can stun and recall your whole board, and Bilgewater will steal your stuff
3. Day and Night Decks aren't very good...without support that is
- Let's take day man as an example Leona needs dayman and if they can't get one to stick they can't go off.
- But what if instead we had a backup plan in case dayman dies, what if we jammed a wtf lethianthan with Swain
- Or we ran Frejord just to ensure day man had elixir of iron
4. The point is that Targon is a support region in the sense that it needs to compliment the more straight forward power present in other colors.
- The days of just jamming hush into an existing list and pretending it's better are over
- consider grabbing faster celestial plays, jamming huge dude's isn't going to cut it anymore
- Remember that everything has a counter figure out what you need to be playing around.
That's it guys let me know what counters you guys have found for Targon
Second: Targon has 0 CARD DRAW SPELLS. I have no idea what your card advantage notion even is. The best Targon can do is cycle and stay even outside of generating Gem cards. So i think giving Targon a different mechanic like generate/replace/multiple casts instead of the standard "Draw 2" spell is a nice idea for region identity.
I play a a 1/3 blocker, that gives me a card that grants me a 4/3 life leech and a 4/3 elusive. How is that not card advantage?
There are 3 core concepts in a card game: 1- Card Advantage: Convert mana (resource) into extra cards in hand (resource) 2- Tempo: Convert mana (resource) into board advantage (champions, units, direct damage, heal, etc) 3- Efficiency: How nuch BANG you get for the ammount of resource spent
The 3 concepts are VERY tied together. Card Advantage is meaningless without Tempo, and Tempo is meaningless without Efficiency. A player may hold 8+ cards in hand then his oponnent, but if he can't transition this advantage into board preassure (tempo) in a reasonable time (efficiency), then its all useless.
Now answering your question: Your example is not card advantage. One unit cost 3, and the other unit costs 6. So the result is a 9 mana unit that DO NOT generate any kind of card advantage, worth 9/9 stats plus some Elusive + Lifesteal. 1- Zero card advantage (its a cycle card at best. Cycle: a card that goes even by drawing just 1 card to replace itself) 2- Extremely bad tempo card on T3 but extremely good tempo on T6 3- Good efficiency (9 mana worth 9/9 stats that has Elusive + Lifesteal that can be played on T6 looks good to me)
My point is that you need to see all the context together.
This has quickly become a contest between Giant Shaman and Patches Druid, where whoever goes first wins unless they draw very badly. Then there's Flik Rogue, who beats both.
I did fight this one Shaman playing Murloc Tidecallers. I actually felt kind of bad for him. But I still ground up his face with a swarm of 7/7 Patches, and I Naturalized his murlocs too. Probably the douchiest thing I've done in awhile.
Revitalizing roar
What is the meaning of the sentence
"pick a unit in your hand to reveal" ? (sorry no mother language)
tks
The quite shocking "new player experience"
I can't say what the actual new player experience is like, but I would probably suggest any new player to first stick to normal, labs, and expeditions so that they can build up their collection. Like FenrirWulf said, a lot of players at low ranks (myself included) are just players that aren't interested in ranking up. The reason they do occasionally want to try out a deck in ranked is probably to see if a certain deck holds up or because they want to see how different the ranked experience is from normal.
So who thought that a region being generally good at card advantage was a good idea?
Do we really think we are in a position to decide in less than a week whether the design of Call of the Mountain was amateurish? Sure, the first 2-3 days were basically a blitz of almost all the same couple of decks. But now (like most other times in the game's history) I'm seeing a remarkable array of different viable decks and strategies. Cards that were laughed off as being unplayable are being played with brutal efficiency (Nocture and Diana, to name two).
I think the set is shaping up to be quite fun, diverse, and well-designed.
Hearthstone Grandmasters 2020 Season 2 - Week 3 Results, Decklists, and More!
Well somehow top people successfully countered priests
Bottom 4 in all regions had all the warriors though from what i heard because everyone brought a deck with tons of weapon removal as tertiary...
Brawl Haul - Flickering our Creatures with Thassa, Deep-Dwelling!
Glad you liked the latest issue! I can totally agree with Thassa being better in Azorius with Yorion as the latter is overall a stronger flicker commander in my opinion, as well as giving access to another color always being a strong selling point.
As for the cards mentioned, A lot of them are great but fall short in some way or another and were essentially the reason why they weren't included.
And yeah, hopefully, the set brings along a whole bunch of new tools to mess around with. Despite not enjoying this deck as much as I originally thought I would, I still absolutely love flicker decks and would be ecstatic if the archetype got more support in the upcoming set.
How can I see celestial cards in the deckbuilder?
You can also see them in the client under the “special categoriess” section of the card search menu thing. It’s under the part where you can filter cards by expansion.
I finally made a deck myself that actually works for once! :D
I think 2x Hush is fine -- 3x would definitely be too much, and 1x will be a "sometimes it's there when you need it and sometimes it's not" condition.
Ideally 3x Vi, but I imagine you're short on crafting resources. And I would probably change from 2x Vault Breaker to 2x Zenith Blade, possibly 3x if you can find a spot.
How can I see celestial cards in the deckbuilder?
You will never see them in deckbuilder since deckbuilder is only for collectible cards and celestial cards are by definition not collectible.
If you are wanted to peruse them, they are in the card library as Targon cards. You could go here: https://outof.cards/legends-of-runeterra/cards/?region=targon&rarity=7
If you were just trying to figure out if it is worth including Invoke cards into your deck: the answer is probably "yes" -- they seem quite successful.
Braum Anivia
Agreed. The one really nice thing is that now with Braum 2.0, you're almost guaranteed to get a free 3/3 Mighty Poro along with him (the rez'ed copy totally restarts the count), and that can often be relevant.
Best Lists To Beat Targon - Open Forum
New counter, undead Anivia vs Auerelion Sol
https://lor.mobalytics.gg/decks/bt37ehhh40qclfo1bdb0
https://outof.cards/legends-of-runeterra/decks/1153-braum-anivia
So who thought that a region being generally good at card advantage was a good idea?
Actually, there's no hate towards the mentioned numerous player group. No ethical implications in saying 'clueless' ...just a factual description of that group's legitimate approach to the game. They don't play the game as seriously and knowledgeably as some other groups... yet, and not from their requesting, recent design favors that kind of chaotic, wacky fun, "whatever" approach where the game breaks many fundamental rules and starts to correct / interfere in decision making of players to help those whose decisions are not refined compared to those of dedicated players. Making outcomes more equal. Flattering to that group is always a finger in the eye to the smaller dedicated group of players (who will find the game becoming ugly). And the reason for all of this is that LoR unfortunately hasn't become popular enough and HS is still much more prominent game. They want to sell new content, too. Why my rant is sharp is because LoR was advertised as the card game which will get rid of all those bad, annoying and populist aspects found in HS. Now they are not satisfied with the status of their game and want to attract numbers at the expense of, again, dedicated players. Which is legitimate, but I dislike it from MY point of view, which is more important to me then some other's. Why is this obvious? Because they are cynically and carelessly implementing back all the criticized HS concepts x 3 recently! Times 3, hey! Not coincidental. These levels of yoink, uncontrollable rng discover, pushed dumb toxic cards, cheap strategies, non-interactivity, untested pile of keywords, non-games... can't be found even in HS! LoR now suddenly wants to be more like HS (but in fact getting worse than it). Maybe this approach will end up being good for them, but maybe it'll achieve no gain, while alienating their initial loyal groups. There could be another reason for all of this - maybe they just don't know what they are doing! In that case, woe to us even more.
Brawl Haul - Flickering our Creatures with Thassa, Deep-Dwelling!
Thanks for the latest issue, I appreciate it. I think I'm in a kind of love-hate relationship with Thassa, she can be pretty cool but also really annoying. Quite a few of the presented cards will rotate out of standard soon though as you said. Here a couple of other non-rotating considerations:
That said the mono-blue version could use a late game win condition other than Oracle, currently I'm seeing Thassa almost exclusively in Azorius to abuse Yorion. But we'll see what the next set brings. :)
Best Lists To Beat Targon - Open Forum
Now that the expansion has been out for a couple days players have gotten over their initial impressions of the set and we can talk about honest to god counters to Targon as a region.
I wanted to lay out a few of the findings I have found personally.
1. Lulu and Taric aren't very good against decks with high levels of interactivity.
- The essential weakness of support as a playstyle is that it requires that you develop into your board.
- For example you play this into a 1 drop and you get hit by make it rain, vile feast, or static shock
2. Slow Rampy Targon lists and card advantage lists get beat out by nab and Ionia
- Let's say you're playing dragons, Ionia isn't going to care because they can stun and recall your whole board, and Bilgewater will steal your stuff
3. Day and Night Decks aren't very good...without support that is
- Let's take day man as an example Leona needs dayman and if they can't get one to stick they can't go off.
- But what if instead we had a backup plan in case dayman dies, what if we jammed a wtf lethianthan with Swain
- Or we ran Frejord just to ensure day man had elixir of iron
4. The point is that Targon is a support region in the sense that it needs to compliment the more straight forward power present in other colors.
- The days of just jamming hush into an existing list and pretending it's better are over
- consider grabbing faster celestial plays, jamming huge dude's isn't going to cut it anymore
- Remember that everything has a counter figure out what you need to be playing around.
That's it guys let me know what counters you guys have found for Targon
Goblins
My first cardback
Molten Core
Same for me. I purchased the adventure for real money AFTER the preorder. I still regret that.
Call of the Light
The dark one looks much better
Call of the Void
It is 3 ears already!!
Good Cheer
An old Twitch promotion
Blizzard Events 2018
Got a blizzcon ticket to get this one. I love it.
Card Design Conversation - Back To School
Aldor Attendant on the left is not from Scholomance
New Freljord Spell - Icequake
Doesn't do enough for an 8 cost slow spell. I guess trolls will like it?
So who thought that a region being generally good at card advantage was a good idea?
There are 3 core concepts in a card game:
1- Card Advantage: Convert mana (resource) into extra cards in hand (resource)
2- Tempo: Convert mana (resource) into board advantage (champions, units, direct damage, heal, etc)
3- Efficiency: How nuch BANG you get for the ammount of resource spent
The 3 concepts are VERY tied together.
Card Advantage is meaningless without Tempo, and Tempo is meaningless without Efficiency.
A player may hold 8+ cards in hand then his oponnent, but if he can't transition this advantage into board preassure (tempo) in a reasonable time (efficiency), then its all useless.
Now answering your question: Your example is not card advantage. One unit cost 3, and the other unit costs 6. So the result is a 9 mana unit that DO NOT generate any kind of card advantage, worth 9/9 stats plus some Elusive + Lifesteal.
1- Zero card advantage (its a cycle card at best. Cycle: a card that goes even by drawing just 1 card to replace itself)
2- Extremely bad tempo card on T3 but extremely good tempo on T6
3- Good efficiency (9 mana worth 9/9 stats that has Elusive + Lifesteal that can be played on T6 looks good to me)
My point is that you need to see all the context together.
Zendikar Rising Teaser - Hints of Things to Come in the New Set
Probably gonna be specific to enchantments to avoid it being too strong, or they'll make it very expensive if it isn't.
New Shadow Isles Spell - Passage Unearned
Good but very narrow.
Top 3
This has quickly become a contest between Giant Shaman and Patches Druid, where whoever goes first wins unless they draw very badly. Then there's Flik Rogue, who beats both.
I did fight this one Shaman playing Murloc Tidecallers. I actually felt kind of bad for him. But I still ground up his face with a swarm of 7/7 Patches, and I Naturalized his murlocs too. Probably the douchiest thing I've done in awhile.