Quest Hunter is toxic now because you can play a rush minion EVERY turn. It's not even hard to activate the quest. I find it really demoralizing to face this deck in particular.
The entire rush mechanic is simply overdone.
80% of my ladder experience is Hunters (rush rush rush) or Rogues (lackey lackey lackey.) I'm really tired of it.
It depends on your deck. It's useless if you don't run minion protection of your own, but as long as you have ways to keep your Detainer alive it's probably the best removval in the game.
That is the list that brought me from gold 4 to plat 4 in just 25 games facing the most common meta decks (spider/elusive) almost all the time.
The reason why this deck worked so well for me is that people underestimate how quickly a lucian can escalate and how devestating a double attacker(lucian/senna) becomes with overwhelm (might). I think people are completely sleeping on lucian and that you should give it a try if you want to hunt these elusive/spider decks down
It's great if you need to remove a strong attacker and prepare for your own game-ending attack the next round. There's also the nice side effect that, even if the unit eventually gets freed, Detain resets any buffs to it. So capturing a super-buffed Fiora, Kinkou Lifeblade, etc. feels super satisfying.
I'd say given the cheaper mana cost compared to Vengeance, it's a decent choice. At least I've picked it in several exploration runs and haven't regretted it (It works great in an all-or-nothing Fiora deck since your game is essentially over if Fiora is killed, anyway).
I trying to make some demacia decks and since a get a detain from a chest i put it on all my decks but is it worth the slot? is the only removal that my OP can revive the unit, besides maybe i should use better removal like noxian guile or venge what you guys think , is it good? bad? one off or more?
Shu’ma should work out fine, both as a quest activator and mid-game threat after quest completion. Most people seem to prefer Flark, but i don’t think you’ll experience much of a decrease in winrate. Shu’ma’s also a better draw before quest completion, because you can use the tokens it generates. Prior to quest completion, Flark fills your board with unusable bombs (outside of a Magnetic play with Sn1p or Zilliax). As other commenters have said, Leeroy / Unleash is the key to this deck.
I disagree, I think having some limited amount of burst damage in neutral/evergreen is healthy for the game. Aggro decks are a necessary component to the balancing act of aggro-control-combo, and without evergreen cards to provide a baseline, it'd just mean more expansion cards have to be printed to fill that void.
We would still have Wolfrider for an evergreen burst neutral. Wolfrider did see lots of play back in the days of Deathrattle Face Hunter, so it's not unplayable. It's just massively outclassed... by Leeroy.
While evergreen burst is important, it shouldn't be Leeroy. He's too abusable to be in Standard forever.
(I also wouldn't mind some buffs for awful cards like Nightblade, but I don't think that's a unique opinion).
Wolf Rider sees play in face decks but not really as a finisher. It's just damage from hand. But suppose Wolf rider were to take Leeroys place due to lack of alternatives, I'm sure the same people who get triggered by losing to leeroy would have a similarly negative reaction to ole' wolfy.
The way I see it, "feels bad to lose against" is incredibly subjective and personal, hence not a strong reason to change things .
I'd be fine seeing him HOF'd. He's not broken, but he just isn't fun to play against in my opinion.
That's because he's a finisher.
It's never fun to lose.
Isn't that a valid argument to HoF Leeroy? Losing to the same card for over 5 years is just not a fun experience, even if the card isn't broken.
Assuming some other card has to be printed to fill the void, then no, that's not a particularly strong reason to HoF Leeroy. You'll still have that not-fun experience losing to a topdecked Killroy Watkins even if it's a brand-spanking new card, and as I mentioned earlier, a lot of people don't have strong negative feelings toward leeroy to begin with. Sure, it's not *fun* to lose to topdeck leeroy, but the same is true for any number of other ways to lose.
Rush essentially gave every class removal, and gave classes that had real removal (via spells or battelcries) even more. Too much removal means not a lot of board presence and minion battling, which is what HS used to be about. It seems HS tried to counter this by ramping up token mechanics to flood the board, so now games are just crazy swingy and overly match-up dependent. I do miss the days when it was acceptable---even worth---including vanillas in the deck.
I think that Leeroy as being one of the few charge minions left, being the neutral charge with the highest damage output, puts it has a high contender in any aggro deck as a finisher if the class lacks better alternatives. But what I find curious is that ppl are not using magnetic instead if they want charge.
Just stick some mechs and magnetize a wargear or a taunt to protect other minions...I have been experimenting with some hero power buff cards and a lot of mechs to build up the pressure until janal'ai himself sends in Ragnaros for the kill. Fun deck for sure. Aggro also needs to stick minions, why not mechs? Then charge comes for free so to speak. I mean with mechs you can have a 2-6 taunt at turn 2 ready for more magnetizing.
Because aggro players aren't smart enough to do something that clever lol. Me go face, me have Leeroy, me win yaaay.
Well while elusive decks probably are a little too strong right now, mostly because of deny and less because of elusive, the deck you are using is objectively bad, it would be like throwing a bunch of aggro and low cost deathrattle cards in a res priest deck. the reason you lose games is absolutely the deck. Furthermore, even if you had a proper control deck, you don't know what stuff to play around yet. it's probably just better to make an actual Elise aggro deck until you have been playing more
I agree that in the present meta, rush (and other removal tools) are a bit too dominant. Now it's generally true that the tail-end of the year favours control and combo(because the more cards there are in standard, the easier it is to craft a fine-tuned control deck that can deal with various threats) and it's also true that despite this, we're in a pretty aggro/face-heavy meta, but the successful aggro decks, mainly facehunter and rogue, more or less ignore the board by mid-game and have a ton of burst from hand. It feels like decks that try to win early via the board are just dead in the water ATM, which is definitely a problem, because it's that much less fun to lose against a face deck that can't be controlled via the board.
One can only hope that the standard rotation will deal with some of the problem cards and that subsequent expansions will be a bit less Rush-heavy. I also wouldn't mind a further nerf to Faceless Corruptor, because that card is still busted AF and completely negates any sort of early tempo advantage an aggro deck might want to build. I wouldn't mind seeing the health of that minion go down to 3 or 2 so that it doesn't value-trade as conveniently. 5 mana: deal 4 damage to 2 minions is still decent tempo even if the card doesn't leave behind two bodies. Right now even if you keep the board clear 6 mana: play a lackey and a faceless is still far too backbreaking for (board-centric) aggro to deal with.
To my belief right now, I feel they are a big part of contribution to the powercreep, as they might be important enough to stay on the same level with other high value cards (like hero cards and others).
A 2 mana 3/4 with even a Rush is acceptable nowadays, and I haven't seen anybody (and myself) whine about it. Some cards also basically holding a package of many cards in it, like hero cards, a card attached with discovery mechanic, and more. Currently with the new cards we have, they now got a lot of value as almost twice as the vanilla and old cards. Not all of rush minions are that, but very close.
So now I don't really know what Blizzard are going to do when rush mechanic becomes part of the game now, as the powercreeps demands more strong overall cards, with having high stat points or a value generators, that's my concern.
I do heard they want to avoid high powercreeps (stated when they done some recent nerfs this year, if I remember correctly), but I doubt they're going to avoid that.
The only 2 mana 3/4 rush I can think of is Underbelly Fence, which has a condition that is rarely met on turn 2 and requires a low tempo card to have been played before it. If it was an unconditional 3/4 with rush people would not be OK with it.
I'm not saying rush minions haven't brought with them some level of power creep (all types of cards have when Blizz is trying to push an archetype), but it is not so great as your comment implies.
I continue to be firmly confident in the meta resolving itself without balance changes. Probably in the form of Hecarim-centric Ephemeral decks steamrolling the Elusives.
I'm unconvinced this will be healthy for the game. If elusive decks dominate 90% of their matchups and are only countered by one specific deck archetpye (let's assume Hecarim ephemeral as you mentioned), that's not good balance. Riot explicitly stated they want a variety of different deck builds to be viable. I think to that end, they'll have to tweak something about either the stronger elusive followers or about the elusive mechanic in general.
Then again, I'm just arguing based on what I've been hearing about elusives recently. I mostly play expeditions and a couple of normals, but barely any ranked games. So I don't go up against this deck archetype nearly as often as some other people do.
As always, good job with the lore tie in Goliath. What other subjects have you thought about doing or passed over? I was thinking doing the 3 dwarven clans wouldn't be too bad. Hopefully one day we get a War Of The Ancients expansion.
There are decks that already do that. It's pretty good as even if they clear the tokens but cannot remove Shu'ma it will flood the board again next turn.
1. That is not what non-interactive means. Spider decks are the opposite of non-interactive because they block your attacks with chaff, level Elise to get Challenger, then use that to force you to interact with them.
2. They're not particularly dangerous since they tend to run out of steam pretty hard.
3. Losing to a deck doesn't mean it needs nerfing.
I continue to be firmly confident in the meta resolving itself without balance changes. Probably in the form of Hecarim-centric Ephemeral decks steamrolling the Elusives.
It amuses me greatly to see nerfs line up for demons given that over the past couple months they've had to delete one archetype and nerf all the others before they got to this state.
The list in your first post looks somewhat similar to my main deck, except that I've moved away from Frostbite cards and that I still don't have a single Anivia; I'm running Braum (coupled with Take Heart) instead for some early-game damage soaking.
The one Frostbite card I'm still running is Winter's Breath, just because it's a straight-up board wipe on the opponent's side once you have a level 2 Karma in play. It's rather lackluster on its own, but when things go right, the combo may win you the match right there.
I also wish I had a 2nd She Who Wanders, but I don't want to commit to spending an epic wildcard on her yet since I only have a precious few of those.
Does anyone else feel like rush has ruined the game?
Quest Hunter is toxic now because you can play a rush minion EVERY turn. It's not even hard to activate the quest. I find it really demoralizing to face this deck in particular.
The entire rush mechanic is simply overdone.
80% of my ladder experience is Hunters (rush rush rush) or Rogues (lackey lackey lackey.) I'm really tired of it.
Spiders go face
and Prankster is kind of debatable at this point because everyone runs challenger or damage spells to kill elusives.
is detain worth it?
It depends on your deck. It's useless if you don't run minion protection of your own, but as long as you have ways to keep your Detainer alive it's probably the best removval in the game.
How do you counter or at least live against the Elusive Decks?
https://outof.cards/legends-of-runeterra/decks/424-lucians-relentless-pursuit
That is the list that brought me from gold 4 to plat 4 in just 25 games facing the most common meta decks (spider/elusive) almost all the time.
The reason why this deck worked so well for me is that people underestimate how quickly a lucian can escalate and how devestating a double attacker(lucian/senna) becomes with overwhelm (might). I think people are completely sleeping on lucian and that you should give it a try if you want to hunt these elusive/spider decks down
Spiders go face
My only problem with spiders is when they throw a prankster in the mix and do unavoidable damage otherwise they've been fairly manageable
is detain worth it?
It's great if you need to remove a strong attacker and prepare for your own game-ending attack the next round. There's also the nice side effect that, even if the unit eventually gets freed, Detain resets any buffs to it. So capturing a super-buffed Fiora, Kinkou Lifeblade, etc. feels super satisfying.
I'd say given the cheaper mana cost compared to Vengeance, it's a decent choice. At least I've picked it in several exploration runs and haven't regretted it (It works great in an all-or-nothing Fiora deck since your game is essentially over if Fiora is killed, anyway).
is detain worth it?
I trying to make some demacia decks and since a get a detain from a chest i put it on all my decks but is it worth the slot? is the only removal that my OP can revive the unit, besides maybe i should use better removal like noxian guile or venge what you guys think , is it good? bad? one off or more?
Standard Meta Report #22 - Top Hearthstone Decks February 2, 2020 - February 9, 2020
Shu’ma should work out fine, both as a quest activator and mid-game threat after quest completion. Most people seem to prefer Flark, but i don’t think you’ll experience much of a decrease in winrate. Shu’ma’s also a better draw before quest completion, because you can use the tokens it generates. Prior to quest completion, Flark fills your board with unusable bombs (outside of a Magnetic play with Sn1p or Zilliax). As other commenters have said, Leeroy / Unleash is the key to this deck.
Just sack Leeroy already.
Wolf Rider sees play in face decks but not really as a finisher. It's just damage from hand. But suppose Wolf rider were to take Leeroys place due to lack of alternatives, I'm sure the same people who get triggered by losing to leeroy would have a similarly negative reaction to ole' wolfy.
The way I see it, "feels bad to lose against" is incredibly subjective and personal, hence not a strong reason to change things .
Assuming some other card has to be printed to fill the void, then no, that's not a particularly strong reason to HoF Leeroy. You'll still have that not-fun experience losing to a topdecked Killroy Watkins even if it's a brand-spanking new card, and as I mentioned earlier, a lot of people don't have strong negative feelings toward leeroy to begin with. Sure, it's not *fun* to lose to topdeck leeroy, but the same is true for any number of other ways to lose.
Does anyone else feel like rush has ruined the game?
Rush essentially gave every class removal, and gave classes that had real removal (via spells or battelcries) even more. Too much removal means not a lot of board presence and minion battling, which is what HS used to be about. It seems HS tried to counter this by ramping up token mechanics to flood the board, so now games are just crazy swingy and overly match-up dependent. I do miss the days when it was acceptable---even worth---including vanillas in the deck.
Just sack Leeroy already.
Because aggro players aren't smart enough to do something that clever lol. Me go face, me have Leeroy, me win yaaay.
How do you counter or at least live against the Elusive Decks?
Well while elusive decks probably are a little too strong right now, mostly because of deny and less because of elusive, the deck you are using is objectively bad, it would be like throwing a bunch of aggro and low cost deathrattle cards in a res priest deck. the reason you lose games is absolutely the deck. Furthermore, even if you had a proper control deck, you don't know what stuff to play around yet. it's probably just better to make an actual Elise aggro deck until you have been playing more
Does anyone else feel like rush has ruined the game?
I agree that in the present meta, rush (and other removal tools) are a bit too dominant. Now it's generally true that the tail-end of the year favours control and combo(because the more cards there are in standard, the easier it is to craft a fine-tuned control deck that can deal with various threats) and it's also true that despite this, we're in a pretty aggro/face-heavy meta, but the successful aggro decks, mainly facehunter and rogue, more or less ignore the board by mid-game and have a ton of burst from hand. It feels like decks that try to win early via the board are just dead in the water ATM, which is definitely a problem, because it's that much less fun to lose against a face deck that can't be controlled via the board.
One can only hope that the standard rotation will deal with some of the problem cards and that subsequent expansions will be a bit less Rush-heavy. I also wouldn't mind a further nerf to Faceless Corruptor, because that card is still busted AF and completely negates any sort of early tempo advantage an aggro deck might want to build. I wouldn't mind seeing the health of that minion go down to 3 or 2 so that it doesn't value-trade as conveniently. 5 mana: deal 4 damage to 2 minions is still decent tempo even if the card doesn't leave behind two bodies. Right now even if you keep the board clear 6 mana: play a lackey and a faceless is still far too backbreaking for (board-centric) aggro to deal with.
Standard Meta Report #22 - Top Hearthstone Decks February 2, 2020 - February 9, 2020
Boommaster Flark is better in my opinion, but you can still replace it with Shu'ma as long as you still have unleash + Leeroy to finish the game.
Otherwise flark is just too important to replace.
Does anyone else feel like rush has ruined the game?
The only 2 mana 3/4 rush I can think of is Underbelly Fence, which has a condition that is rarely met on turn 2 and requires a low tempo card to have been played before it. If it was an unconditional 3/4 with rush people would not be OK with it.
I'm not saying rush minions haven't brought with them some level of power creep (all types of cards have when Blizz is trying to push an archetype), but it is not so great as your comment implies.
How do you counter or at least live against the Elusive Decks?
I'm unconvinced this will be healthy for the game. If elusive decks dominate 90% of their matchups and are only countered by one specific deck archetpye (let's assume Hecarim ephemeral as you mentioned), that's not good balance. Riot explicitly stated they want a variety of different deck builds to be viable. I think to that end, they'll have to tweak something about either the stronger elusive followers or about the elusive mechanic in general.
Then again, I'm just arguing based on what I've been hearing about elusives recently. I mostly play expeditions and a couple of normals, but barely any ranked games. So I don't go up against this deck archetype nearly as often as some other people do.
Group Therapy! Need to blow off some steam? Mega salty? Here's the place!
I heard that in SEA they play control more than lackey shit that I only face off against in my current zone. Is that true? Anyone know?
All-Star Squad
i got a new title for this brawl
All Star Squad: Pogo Hopper's or Bust!
Standard Meta Report #22 - Top Hearthstone Decks February 2, 2020 - February 9, 2020
You could give it a try?
There is some synergy with magnetic minions (SN1P-SN4P, Zilliax in the above listing). But that's not the most important part of the deck.
I also use Replicating Menace, but still wouldn't place an enormous impact on the magnetism.
Traversing Azeroth - The History of the Mysterious Ethereals
As always, good job with the lore tie in Goliath. What other subjects have you thought about doing or passed over? I was thinking doing the 3 dwarven clans wouldn't be too bad. Hopefully one day we get a War Of The Ancients expansion.
Standard Meta Report #22 - Top Hearthstone Decks February 2, 2020 - February 9, 2020
There are decks that already do that. It's pretty good as even if they clear the tokens but cannot remove Shu'ma it will flood the board again next turn.
Spiders go face
1. That is not what non-interactive means. Spider decks are the opposite of non-interactive because they block your attacks with chaff, level Elise to get Challenger, then use that to force you to interact with them.
2. They're not particularly dangerous since they tend to run out of steam pretty hard.
3. Losing to a deck doesn't mean it needs nerfing.
How do you counter or at least live against the Elusive Decks?
I continue to be firmly confident in the meta resolving itself without balance changes. Probably in the form of Hecarim-centric Ephemeral decks steamrolling the Elusives.
Battlegrounds' Demons are Strong and Blizzard Says "Things" are Coming to Address Those Concerns
It amuses me greatly to see nerfs line up for demons given that over the past couple months they've had to delete one archetype and nerf all the others before they got to this state.
Ionia/Freljord Control
The list in your first post looks somewhat similar to my main deck, except that I've moved away from Frostbite cards and that I still don't have a single Anivia; I'm running Braum (coupled with Take Heart) instead for some early-game damage soaking.
The one Frostbite card I'm still running is Winter's Breath, just because it's a straight-up board wipe on the opponent's side once you have a level 2 Karma in play. It's rather lackluster on its own, but when things go right, the combo may win you the match right there.
I also wish I had a 2nd She Who Wanders, but I don't want to commit to spending an epic wildcard on her yet since I only have a precious few of those.