I think I'm with you and 40, but to attempt devil's advocate: [...]
A valiant effort :). I still think I have a very different mentality in this regard. I know many people these days view practically any kind of nerf as "the developers ruining their fun" - they don't grasp that a healthy game balance requires buffs and nerfs in equal measure. I witnessed this first-hand with the baffling outrage in the Borderlands 3 community; for once, the developer Gearbox started actively tuning different weapons, skills, etc. right from the game's launch - which I appreciate a lot -, and people immediately got hung up on their favorite weapon(s) being "ruined" when the devs adjust the numbers to bring it back in line with the rest of the arsenal (In this case, unlike your example, they didn't even pay real money for the items in question).
Me, I'm just glad to see any developer put effort into properly balancing their game. Yeah, of course Riot will still stumble and over- or undertune certain cards, but they can always catch those outliers with the next patch. I have faith that they'll be doing a good job, and I have no qualms with the cards I'm using getting nerfed if it's justified. Oh, and I also don't have any aspirations to climb the ladder, so that's a moot point for me.
Shaman Invocation of Frost is nerfed because the cost is too low. Freeze is at least costing 1 mana (like Mage), and Invoke is costing another 1 mana (being a class cards), if it's neutral cards, it can cost to 2 mana. So, it makes sense to nerfed it to 2 mana. But judging from the result of the Shaman Invoke (2/1 rush body), it can cost 2 mana per invoke. The best way to compare is Springpaw 1 mana rush class minion only having 1/1 rush body.
Sludge Slurper IMO can have 1/2 or 1/3 body, and 1 overload for its lackey productions. way overnerfed.
Mogu Fleshshaper function a lot like Sea Giant, but what makes it got nerfed is because the pool of mutate cards available. but comparing the body, I'd say it's overnerfed. 3/4 rush 9 mana and 8/8 10 mana is crazy. Not to mention class cards. If it were up to me, I'd just make 3/4 7 mana, remove the rush, and changed its formula to "1 mana less for each friendly minions"
Corrupt Elementalist is similar nerfs to how invoke costs. I'd say 3 mana for 3/3 body, and 3 mana for 2 x 2/1 rush body is balanced.
Is it Brightwing? "Unpredictable" means were looking for a RNG card. This could give you Scargil or Baku the Mooneater (in wild)... not sure about the glowing part though. That sounds like the card has a conditional effect which makes it glow in your hand when it's fulfilled.
Losing to Leeroy isn't fun i agree, but i feel like the reason Leeroy is so good is because there isn't much competition, as most other charge minions aren't well statted or too expansive on their own. (For example Hunter's never use King Krush unless it's from Dinotamer Brann) and Warriors GENERALLY use Grommash Hellscream instead of Leeroy as it's a bigger burst of damage.
Speaking of Grommash Hellscream if leeroy were to rotate out, i bet this card will be "The new Leeroy" (Even though it's a warrior card) people will complain about and this cycle will probably last until every charge minion gets rotated. After which they will complain about combo-esk cards like Malygos.
And even if they rotate it, what will be Leeroys replacement? Probably another trash card no one will use, and will most likely make the classic set even worse than it already is. Or a "Very original card" that is (Name): 6 attack. 2 health. Rush. Deathrattle: "Summon 2 1/1 (name of some tokens) for your opponent." (Jokes aside i think it would be some rush card as rush is pretty much the replacement of charge, and the HS team has shown that they really like the rush mechanic.)
I think I would remove fearsome from him. Right now you're totally screwed if you don't have high attack minions because all your opponent has to do is play Ledros and attack with him to deal a minimum of 18 damage in a minority of situations (your nexus has 18+ health) or just kill you in all the rest. That is just too much for one epic card. And then there's the combo with Atrocity which you can only prevent with Deny or by killing Ledros with fast and/or burst spells.
I mean I could start counting mechanics other regions have like that.. I think Ionia and SI will be nerfed but the different mechanics are not a problem. I suspect every region will gain 1~2 new mechanics per expansion so..
I agree with oldManSanns, but I think riot will increase his mana cost to 9 or 10 to make it harder to play, or remove fearsome to make it so you can block it with tokens. (the card should stay as a finisher, but reduce his power level..)
I am ok with such card existing.. it costs a lot and it should be impactful.
I dunno, man. Late game epics are suppose to have a huge effect. And honestly, its pretty slow: if you are at 10 HP when your opponent plays it the first time, assuming no other damage or healing, that's 10 -> 5 -> 2 -> 1 so 4 times I have to replay him. Compare this with a She Who Wanders, Warmother's Call, Captain Farron, or The Harrowing: those will all probably end the game a lot quicker than Ledros.
I dunno man. I will definitely agree that Ionia is over-represented in the current meta, but that doesn't mean it's too powerful. Part of the reason why Ionia has so many gimmicks is because they don't have many heavy hitters. For example you mention barrier: the only time I've seen barrier outside of Expedition is with Fiora. And the only time I've seen stun used is the occasional Arachnoid Sentry or on Youtube when someone is trying to make Yasou work. If it wasn't for elusives--which admittedly are overtuned right now--then the only real win condition Ionia has left in constructed is to combine with another more powerful region.
I am curious to see what next week's patch brings. If this community is anything like Hearthstone's, then the very act of having the developer lower the impact of any Ionia cards will create a placebo mentality where everyone feels like the changes are more serious than they actually were and therefore flock to new, different archetypes.
Just a little salty after playing against it almost every game
But I did a quick search in the collection manager including unowned cards. The following is a few keywords, followed by a number of all existing cards that have it or interact with it, and a number of said cards existing in Ionia, and a few notable examples. For most of these, Ionia has over half of the cards of a given keyword in their pool, and if not, most of the cards.
Recall: 10 Exist, 8 Ionia (11 / 9 if you include Zed's champ spell). Yasuo, Will of Ionia, Minah Swiftfoot. 2 Fast spells forced to target ally, but can be used to save units. 1 Other card that buffs for each recall or stun. Only 2 using recall as a "cost"
Ephemeral: Now the problem here is how many Ionia has. The problem here is they're the only ones that can give it to the opponent. Death Mark, Shadow Flare, Ren Shadowblade
So do I have the right to be annoyed at this point? Does anyone else share my feelings? Anything that I missed? Any opposite opinions? Some other region that somehow has top spot or over half of 6 different annoying mechanics or mechanics other regions would love like... any... healing?
I'd be fine seeing him HOF'd. He's not broken, but he just isn't fun to play against in my opinion.
That's because he's a finisher.
It's never fun to lose.
Isn't that a valid argument to HoF Leeroy? Losing to the same card for over 5 years is just not a fun experience, even if the card isn't broken.
Assuming some other card has to be printed to fill the void, then no, that's not a particularly strong reason to HoF Leeroy. You'll still have that not-fun experience losing to a topdecked Killroy Watkins even if it's a brand-spanking new card, and as I mentioned earlier, a lot of people don't have strong negative feelings toward leeroy to begin with. Sure, it's not *fun* to lose to topdeck leeroy, but the same is true for any number of other ways to lose.
Replacing Leeroy with a carbon copy wouldn't help, but they could print other good aggro cards. I do think it feels worse to lose to the same card for a very long time than to lose to different cards in each meta.
I think there are several aspects of Leeroy that make him more annoying than the average card:
charge is a not very interactive mechanic; they switched to rush for a reason
being a strong neutral card in the Classic set, he's always present, in every meta, in every class, forever
as a one-of card, drawing Leeroy at the right time has a big impact on the outcome of the game: drawing him too soon is almost as bad as drawing him too late, since it's rare that he's playable when it's not lethal and aggro decks typically cannot afford to hold a lot of cards for later
By the same logic rotating Malygos and Alexstrasza also makes sense, since those are also non-interactive strong neutral legendaries.
You'll still have that not-fun experience losing to a topdecked Killroy Watkins even if it's a brand-spanking new card,
But it won't be that forever. If an alternative card is added in an expansion, it'll be gone in two years. As others have said, Zilliax is more of an issue than Leeroy has ever been. I don't have a problem with Zilliax though since he's going away in two months. He had his time, and he'll never be a problem ever again. A new best neutral Legendary will pop up at some point to replace him, and that's okay. It keeps the game feeling fresh as long as it does a similar thing in a new way.
Unless you're implying Blizzard would print a Leeroy-type card in Classic... and to that I say, on what evidence? Brightwing and High Inquisitor Whitemane are nothing like Sylvanas Windrunner and Ragnaros the Firelord. The only replacement card that's at all similar to the original is Radiance being an inverted Mind Blast. If Leeroy were rotated, it would leave the much more balanced Wolfrider as the benchmark evergreen neutral burst.
While not very powerful, for me is swamp dragon egg.
A good combination of:
tribal synergy value(adding dragons to your hand doesn't miss powerful battlecries like chromatic egg), high health for the low cost and deathrattle keyword (turn 2 shadowy figure).
It should be replaced with a one mana dragon (priest only) that could contest early boards and work with both shadowy figure and dragon breeder: 1/2 deathrattle: give a friendly minion +2 health.
Title says it all. If you can manage to defend yourself despite having your life total halved (perhaps more than once), you've earned the win. Having Commander Ledros deal lethal damage at 1 HP means that if you don't have something to meaningfully diffuse his effect (e.g. Mageseeker Investigator), or if you're not already way in the lead, you're screwed.
Guess if/what Riot will give refunds for nerfed cards
A valiant effort :). I still think I have a very different mentality in this regard. I know many people these days view practically any kind of nerf as "the developers ruining their fun" - they don't grasp that a healthy game balance requires buffs and nerfs in equal measure. I witnessed this first-hand with the baffling outrage in the Borderlands 3 community; for once, the developer Gearbox started actively tuning different weapons, skills, etc. right from the game's launch - which I appreciate a lot -, and people immediately got hung up on their favorite weapon(s) being "ruined" when the devs adjust the numbers to bring it back in line with the rest of the arsenal (In this case, unlike your example, they didn't even pay real money for the items in question).
Me, I'm just glad to see any developer put effort into properly balancing their game. Yeah, of course Riot will still stumble and over- or undertune certain cards, but they can always catch those outliers with the next patch. I have faith that they'll be doing a good job, and I have no qualms with the cards I'm using getting nerfed if it's justified. Oh, and I also don't have any aspirations to climb the ladder, so that's a moot point for me.
Standard Meta Report #22 - Top Hearthstone Decks February 2, 2020 - February 9, 2020
Shaman Invocation of Frost is nerfed because the cost is too low. Freeze is at least costing 1 mana (like Mage), and Invoke is costing another 1 mana (being a class cards), if it's neutral cards, it can cost to 2 mana. So, it makes sense to nerfed it to 2 mana. But judging from the result of the Shaman Invoke (2/1 rush body), it can cost 2 mana per invoke. The best way to compare is Springpaw 1 mana rush class minion only having 1/1 rush body.
Sludge Slurper IMO can have 1/2 or 1/3 body, and 1 overload for its lackey productions. way overnerfed.
No opinion on Dragon's Pack
Mogu Fleshshaper function a lot like Sea Giant, but what makes it got nerfed is because the pool of mutate cards available. but comparing the body, I'd say it's overnerfed. 3/4 rush 9 mana and 8/8 10 mana is crazy. Not to mention class cards. If it were up to me, I'd just make 3/4 7 mana, remove the rush, and changed its formula to "1 mana less for each friendly minions"
Corrupt Elementalist is similar nerfs to how invoke costs. I'd say 3 mana for 3/3 body, and 3 mana for 2 x 2/1 rush body is balanced.
[Game] Card Treasure Hunt (The Resurrection Attempt)
Is it Brightwing? "Unpredictable" means were looking for a RNG card. This could give you Scargil or Baku the Mooneater (in wild)... not sure about the glowing part though. That sounds like the card has a conditional effect which makes it glow in your hand when it's fulfilled.
Just sack Leeroy already.
Losing to Leeroy isn't fun i agree, but i feel like the reason Leeroy is so good is because there isn't much competition, as most other charge minions aren't well statted or too expansive on their own. (For example Hunter's never use King Krush unless it's from Dinotamer Brann) and Warriors GENERALLY use Grommash Hellscream instead of Leeroy as it's a bigger burst of damage.
Speaking of Grommash Hellscream if leeroy were to rotate out, i bet this card will be "The new Leeroy" (Even though it's a warrior card) people will complain about and this cycle will probably last until every charge minion gets rotated. After which they will complain about combo-esk cards like Malygos.
And even if they rotate it, what will be Leeroys replacement? Probably another trash card no one will use, and will most likely make the classic set even worse than it already is. Or a "Very original card" that is (Name): 6 attack. 2 health. Rush. Deathrattle: "Summon 2 1/1 (name of some tokens) for your opponent." (Jokes aside i think it would be some rush card as rush is pretty much the replacement of charge, and the HS team has shown that they really like the rush mechanic.)
Commander Ledros ought to round down
I think I would remove fearsome from him. Right now you're totally screwed if you don't have high attack minions because all your opponent has to do is play Ledros and attack with him to deal a minimum of 18 damage in a minority of situations (your nexus has 18+ health) or just kill you in all the rest. That is just too much for one epic card. And then there's the combo with Atrocity which you can only prevent with Deny or by killing Ledros with fast and/or burst spells.
Anyone else think Ionia has a little too much?
I mean I could start counting mechanics other regions have like that.. I think Ionia and SI will be nerfed but the different mechanics are not a problem. I suspect every region will gain 1~2 new mechanics per expansion so..
Commander Ledros ought to round down
He has to be nerfed either in stats or in cost.
It's a ridiculous endgame win condition that's barely counterable. Outside of purifying or freeze/stun stalling you can't really deal with him.
And ofc he has fearsome so you can't even chump block him.
He's basically a champion with an epic tag
What's your most satisfying winstreak?
Nice flex but ok
Commander Ledros ought to round down
I agree with oldManSanns, but I think riot will increase his mana cost to 9 or 10 to make it harder to play, or remove fearsome to make it so you can block it with tokens. (the card should stay as a finisher, but reduce his power level..)
I am ok with such card existing.. it costs a lot and it should be impactful.
Is frenzied skitterer any good?
Frenzied skitter is one of the best cards imo.
Does anyone know what Ranks the different Colors specify for Competitive?
Thank you so much, franky! That's been buggy me.
Yay Silver III.
Is frenzied skitterer any good?
Died at 3 cause I play too much around judgment and missed lethal
Commander Ledros ought to round down
I dunno, man. Late game epics are suppose to have a huge effect. And honestly, its pretty slow: if you are at 10 HP when your opponent plays it the first time, assuming no other damage or healing, that's 10 -> 5 -> 2 -> 1 so 4 times I have to replay him. Compare this with a She Who Wanders, Warmother's Call, Captain Farron, or The Harrowing: those will all probably end the game a lot quicker than Ledros.
Anyone else think Ionia has a little too much?
I dunno man. I will definitely agree that Ionia is over-represented in the current meta, but that doesn't mean it's too powerful. Part of the reason why Ionia has so many gimmicks is because they don't have many heavy hitters. For example you mention barrier: the only time I've seen barrier outside of Expedition is with Fiora. And the only time I've seen stun used is the occasional Arachnoid Sentry or on Youtube when someone is trying to make Yasou work. If it wasn't for elusives--which admittedly are overtuned right now--then the only real win condition Ionia has left in constructed is to combine with another more powerful region.
I am curious to see what next week's patch brings. If this community is anything like Hearthstone's, then the very act of having the developer lower the impact of any Ionia cards will create a placebo mentality where everyone feels like the changes are more serious than they actually were and therefore flock to new, different archetypes.
Is frenzied skitterer any good?
Lol. Did you make it to 7?
What's your most satisfying winstreak?
Going from rank 13 to 5 with 2 loses when Even Paladin was a thing. That was really insane
Anyone else think Ionia has a little too much?
Just a little salty after playing against it almost every game
But I did a quick search in the collection manager including unowned cards. The following is a few keywords, followed by a number of all existing cards that have it or interact with it, and a number of said cards existing in Ionia, and a few notable examples. For most of these, Ionia has over half of the cards of a given keyword in their pool, and if not, most of the cards.
Elusive: 21 exist with the word in it. 11 Ionia. Examples: Greenglade Duo, Shadow Assassin, BADCARDNAME, Kinkou Lifeblade, Yusari, The Empyrean
Lifesteal: 7 total exist. 4 Ionia. Herald of Spring, Emerald Awakener, Kinkou Lifeblade again, Spirit's Refuge
Recall: 10 Exist, 8 Ionia (11 / 9 if you include Zed's champ spell). Yasuo, Will of Ionia, Minah Swiftfoot. 2 Fast spells forced to target ally, but can be used to save units. 1 Other card that buffs for each recall or stun. Only 2 using recall as a "cost"
Stun: 10 Exist. 4 Ionia (the other 6 all in Noxus). Yasuo, Fae Bladetwirler, Steel Tempest, Yone, Windchaser
Barrier: 12 Exist (if Heimerdinger counts), 5 Ionia (Sedond to Damacia which has 6 but only if you count Fiora's Champ Spell). Shen, Greenglade Caretaker, Spirit's Refuge again, Ki Guardian, Stand United
Heal an / Heal your: 6 exist, 2 Ionia (tied with Freljord). Health Potion, Ritual of Renewal
Ephemeral: Now the problem here is how many Ionia has. The problem here is they're the only ones that can give it to the opponent. Death Mark, Shadow Flare, Ren Shadowblade
Ally in hand / Allies in hand (Hand buffs): 8 Exist, 5 Ionia. Inspiring Mentor, Ki Guardian, Jeweled Protector, Sown Seeds, Greenglade Elder
And honorable mentions: Deny, Twin Disciplines
So do I have the right to be annoyed at this point? Does anyone else share my feelings? Anything that I missed? Any opposite opinions? Some other region that somehow has top spot or over half of 6 different annoying mechanics or mechanics other regions would love like... any... healing?
Is frenzied skitterer any good?
hmm I wonder if Frenzied Skitterer is good IDK guys
Edit: turns out that it's great but I play around stuff I shouldn't XD
What's your most satisfying winstreak?
Haha nice!
Ever-quest Dragon Hunter
This looks so crazy that it just might work!
Love the idea and will definitely be trying it out haha
Just sack Leeroy already.
Replacing Leeroy with a carbon copy wouldn't help, but they could print other good aggro cards. I do think it feels worse to lose to the same card for a very long time than to lose to different cards in each meta.
I think there are several aspects of Leeroy that make him more annoying than the average card:
By the same logic rotating Malygos and Alexstrasza also makes sense, since those are also non-interactive strong neutral legendaries.
Just sack Leeroy already.
But it won't be that forever. If an alternative card is added in an expansion, it'll be gone in two years. As others have said, Zilliax is more of an issue than Leeroy has ever been. I don't have a problem with Zilliax though since he's going away in two months. He had his time, and he'll never be a problem ever again. A new best neutral Legendary will pop up at some point to replace him, and that's okay. It keeps the game feeling fresh as long as it does a similar thing in a new way.
Unless you're implying Blizzard would print a Leeroy-type card in Classic... and to that I say, on what evidence? Brightwing and High Inquisitor Whitemane are nothing like Sylvanas Windrunner and Ragnaros the Firelord. The only replacement card that's at all similar to the original is Radiance being an inverted Mind Blast. If Leeroy were rotated, it would leave the much more balanced Wolfrider as the benchmark evergreen neutral burst.
Which card are you going to miss the most from the upcoming rotating sets and how would you replace it?
While not very powerful, for me is swamp dragon egg.
A good combination of:
tribal synergy value(adding dragons to your hand doesn't miss powerful battlecries like chromatic egg), high health for the low cost and deathrattle keyword (turn 2 shadowy figure).
It should be replaced with a one mana dragon (priest only) that could contest early boards and work with both shadowy figure and dragon breeder: 1/2 deathrattle: give a friendly minion +2 health.
What's your most satisfying winstreak?
13-1 with warrior Mecha'thun to reach legend on RoS meta... Just playing with old Boom's and WW expansion cards.
Who needs new cards to win? :D
Commander Ledros ought to round down
Title says it all. If you can manage to defend yourself despite having your life total halved (perhaps more than once), you've earned the win. Having Commander Ledros deal lethal damage at 1 HP means that if you don't have something to meaningfully diffuse his effect (e.g. Mageseeker Investigator), or if you're not already way in the lead, you're screwed.