A simple and minimialist way to nerf Combo (and Resurrect) Priest

  • Cheese's Avatar
    270 163 Posts Joined 05/30/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    Since the initial damage is not tied to a Battlecry, it will also be here when those are summoned without being played as it is the case with Resurrect effects.

    Combo Priest is the best deck in the game because of the consistency provided by Injured Tol'vir and Psychopomp. The deck becomes much weaker when it can't easily resurrect a 2/6 or a 4/7 on turn 4.

    This change would also be good for the long-term health of the game. Who else never facepalmed when Wandering Monster spawns a 4/7 or Faceless Lackey a 2/6 Taunt?

    -13
  • AliRadicali's Avatar
    465 713 Posts Joined 06/06/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    The problem is that your solution isn't simple or minimalist at all, it's effectively introducing a new mechanic "Starts at" to address a very very minor balance concern affecting 4 cards in the whole game. Whether or not such an intervention is even warranted is a whole separate question, but this solution is deeply inelegant if you ask me.

    I dislike inner fire OTKs as much as the next guy but the problem is clearly with Divine Spirit and Inner Fire, not slightly beefier-than-average minions. High-rolls on effects that randomly summon, evolve or resurrect minions will always be a part of the game, and these aren't even the most egregious examples. Warlock is full of overstatted demons with negative battlecries that are great to get if you don't have to pay the full price.

    13
  • Avalon's Avatar
    Salty Dog 1550 2105 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From AliRadicali

    The problem is that your solution isn't simple or minimalist at all

    This.

    A simple and minimalist change is EVIL Miscreant from 5 to 4 health; reworking an entire mechanic (removing a Battlecry and adding an aura-like effect which isn't immediate at all) just to be sure that Priest will suck is nowhere near what you said in the title.

    Moreover, you said that you wanted to bring a solution to the RESURRECT mechanic (again, see the title), but I don't see any purpose here: you're just talking about some minions (which have been nearly to never been played) that happen to be good in a resurrect deck whose only "cheat" card is Psychopomp. What about Big Priest? Is that ok just because it doesn't fuck up your Standard matchups? Ok cool.

    I'm not implying that Priest doesn't need some sort of rework (God I really hope since it's the class I have the most wins with), but all I'm seeing is a rant thread just because you can't win that matchup with your deck.

     

    BONUS: Injured Blademaster is stupid when it comes out from Wandering Monster, right? But what about when it spawns Voodoo Doll or Sewer Crawler?

    Man your post lacks so much objectivity...

    Spice Lord and self-proclaimed Meme Master.

    • You can follow me on Twitter - I am always active and you can tag me to highlight your (or someone else's) 12 wins Duels run or really anything Hearthstone-related!
    • Hearthstone Battletag: beppe946#2807 (EU)
    7
  • Alfi's Avatar
    Devoted Academic 1790 1375 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    Simple and minimalistic balance nerf is to HoF Divine Spirit

    -=alfi=-

    3
  • tumkin's Avatar
    E.V.I.L. Dragon 385 20 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    Or can we just nerf it to something like "Give a minion +5 health"? The biggest problem seems to be the double+double. A nerf to be only +5 (or so) health would still provide a possibility of burst damage, but only 10, which seems much more reasonable. 

    2
  • Avalon's Avatar
    Salty Dog 1550 2105 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From tumkin

    Or can we just nerf it to something like "Give a minion +5 health"? The biggest problem seems to be the double+double. A nerf to be only +5 (or so) health would still provide a possibility of burst damage, but only 10, which seems much more reasonable. 

    It wouldn't be reasonable: it would make the combo (the only combo available for the Priest class in its Basic/Classic set) harmless, and that would even destroy some Wild decks.

    Just Hall of Fame it already and rework Priest's evergreen set

    Spice Lord and self-proclaimed Meme Master.

    • You can follow me on Twitter - I am always active and you can tag me to highlight your (or someone else's) 12 wins Duels run or really anything Hearthstone-related!
    • Hearthstone Battletag: beppe946#2807 (EU)
    0
  • Cheese's Avatar
    270 163 Posts Joined 05/30/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From Avalon
    Quote From AliRadicali

    The problem is that your solution isn't simple or minimalist at all

    This.

    A simple and minimalist change is EVIL Miscreant from 5 to 4 health; reworking an entire mechanic (removing a Battlecry and adding an aura-like effect which isn't immediate at all) just to be sure that Priest will suck is nowhere near what you said in the title.

    Moreover, you said that you wanted to bring a solution to the RESURRECT mechanic (again, see the title), but I don't see any purpose here: you're just talking about some minions (which have been nearly to never been played) that happen to be good in a resurrect deck whose only "cheat" card is Psychopomp. What about Big Priest? Is that ok just because it doesn't fuck up your Standard matchups? Ok cool.

    I'm not implying that Priest doesn't need some sort of rework (God I really hope since it's the class I have the most wins with), but all I'm seeing is a rant thread just because you can't win that matchup with your deck.

     

    BONUS: Injured Blademaster is stupid when it comes out from Wandering Monster, right? But what about when it spawns Voodoo Doll or Sewer Crawler?

    Man your post lacks so much objectivity...

    Your post oozes with salt. Agree that Priest's core sets need a rework though.

    Quote From AliRadicali

    The problem is that your solution isn't simple or minimalist at all, it's effectively introducing a new mechanic "Starts at" to address a very very minor balance concern affecting 4 cards in the whole game. Whether or not such an intervention is even warranted is a whole separate question, but this solution is deeply inelegant if you ask me.

    I dislike inner fire OTKs as much as the next guy but the problem is clearly with Divine Spirit and Inner Fire, not slightly beefier-than-average minions. High-rolls on effects that randomly summon, evolve or resurrect minions will always be a part of the game, and these aren't even the most egregious examples. Warlock is full of overstatted demons with negative battlecries that are great to get if you don't have to pay the full price.

    I agree that HoFing Inner Fire is the best solution but Blizzard heavily hinted that they won't do it (it seems they want to HoF DS instead which is weird because IF is obviously the problematic card here). I thought this is an acceptable alternative. Yes, it would be a new mechanic, but that's what Blizz devs are paid for.

    EDIT: Fixed the quote inversion.

    -9
  • AliRadicali's Avatar
    465 713 Posts Joined 06/06/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From Cheese

     

    Quote From AliRadicali

    The problem is that your solution isn't simple or minimalist at all, it's effectively introducing a new mechanic "Starts at" to address a very very minor balance concern affecting 4 cards in the whole game. Whether or not such an intervention is even warranted is a whole separate question, but this solution is deeply inelegant if you ask me.

    I dislike inner fire OTKs as much as the next guy but the problem is clearly with Divine Spirit and Inner Fire, not slightly beefier-than-average minions. High-rolls on effects that randomly summon, evolve or resurrect minions will always be a part of the game, and these aren't even the most egregious examples. Warlock is full of overstatted demons with negative battlecries that are great to get if you don't have to pay the full price.

    Your post oozes with salt. Agree that Priest's core sets need a rework though.

    You started a thread suggesting a nerf to the injured gang of all things. I'm not sure on what basis you're calling anyone else salty.

    8
  • Avalon's Avatar
    Salty Dog 1550 2105 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From Cheese

    Yes, it would be a new mechanic, but that's what Blizz devs are paid for.

    Are Blizzard devs paid for creating new useless and not immediate mechanics just to destroy an archetype that has been around for less than a month? Oh that's a new one for me

    Spice Lord and self-proclaimed Meme Master.

    • You can follow me on Twitter - I am always active and you can tag me to highlight your (or someone else's) 12 wins Duels run or really anything Hearthstone-related!
    • Hearthstone Battletag: beppe946#2807 (EU)
    2
  • Cheese's Avatar
    270 163 Posts Joined 05/30/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From AliRadicali
    Quote From Cheese

     

    Quote From AliRadicali

    The problem is that your solution isn't simple or minimalist at all, it's effectively introducing a new mechanic "Starts at" to address a very very minor balance concern affecting 4 cards in the whole game. Whether or not such an intervention is even warranted is a whole separate question, but this solution is deeply inelegant if you ask me.

    I dislike inner fire OTKs as much as the next guy but the problem is clearly with Divine Spirit and Inner Fire, not slightly beefier-than-average minions. High-rolls on effects that randomly summon, evolve or resurrect minions will always be a part of the game, and these aren't even the most egregious examples. Warlock is full of overstatted demons with negative battlecries that are great to get if you don't have to pay the full price.

    Your post oozes with salt. Agree that Priest's core sets need a rework though.

    You started a thread suggesting a nerf to the injured gang of all things. I'm not sure on what basis you're calling anyone else salty.

    He directly borderline insulted me, suggesting that I want those nerfs because I lose a lot against Combo Priest which is absolutely baseless. I main CW with Silence tech and don't have a specific problem with this matchup in terms of winrate. My problem is the same as everyone else: it's unfair. Since IF won't be HoF'd, something else should be done.

    Won't even answer this argument because he obviously just came here to pick a fight.

    -4
  • AliRadicali's Avatar
    465 713 Posts Joined 06/06/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From Cheese
    Quote From AliRadicali
    Quote From Cheese

     

    Quote From AliRadicali

    The problem is that your solution isn't simple or minimalist at all, it's effectively introducing a new mechanic "Starts at" to address a very very minor balance concern affecting 4 cards in the whole game. Whether or not such an intervention is even warranted is a whole separate question, but this solution is deeply inelegant if you ask me.

    I dislike inner fire OTKs as much as the next guy but the problem is clearly with Divine Spirit and Inner Fire, not slightly beefier-than-average minions. High-rolls on effects that randomly summon, evolve or resurrect minions will always be a part of the game, and these aren't even the most egregious examples. Warlock is full of overstatted demons with negative battlecries that are great to get if you don't have to pay the full price.

    Your post oozes with salt. Agree that Priest's core sets need a rework though.

    You started a thread suggesting a nerf to the injured gang of all things. I'm not sure on what basis you're calling anyone else salty.

    He directly borderline insulted me, suggesting that I want those nerfs because I lose a lot against Combo Priest which is absolutely baseless. I main CW with Silence tech and don't have a specific problem with this matchup in terms of winrate. My problem is the same as everyone else: it's unfair. Since IF won't be HoF'd, something else should be done.

    Won't even answer this argument because he obviously just came here to pick a fight.

    I'm amused at how far you're willing to go to avoid a substantive conversation. I "Borderline directly insulted' you? Buddy, not only is that a contradiction in terms, no such thing happened. When I said "I dislike inner fire OTKs as much as the next guy" that was (clearly!) meant to be a conciliatory statement, agreeing that there are problems with the deck you're trying to get nerfed. For you to try to turn that into an insult is some Olympian levels of mental gymnastics, so congrats on that feat.

     

    Instead of scrambling for reasons and rationalisations for why I am the bad guy here maybe re-read our interaction without casting everything I say in the most uncharitable light. You might be surprised at who is picking a fight with whom. 

    ¯\_()_/¯

    4
  • RavenSunHS's Avatar
    Refreshment Vendor 880 1487 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    Tbh, I believe Resurrection mechanic (as it works now) is just too cheaply valued in terms of mana cost, on all the cards that perform a resurrection, Wild and Standard.

    Every card in that range should cost from (1) to (2) more. It doesn't matter if their consistency is bound to the quality of the minions in your graveyard, cards should be balanced around their average outcome (eg. a generic (4)-mana minion Resurrected for (2) is already a strong play).

    Additionally, if we look at the specific case of Psychopomp: it has premium (1)-minion stats, it performs Resurrect (2) (assuming resurrection was correctly valued in itself, and I believe it is not), and it adds Embalming Ritual (1).

    If we consider the 3 effects together, their cost is indeed (4), but in 3 cards!

    3 cards in one, for the same mana cost as the sum of the said 3 cards: usually value cards that do all these things cost more than the sum of the cost of the effects it incorporates.

    Same goes for any card that performs Recruit (eg. Darkest Hour), but that is another story I guess...

    2
  • KANSAS's Avatar
    Old God Fanatic 1745 2912 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From AliRadicali
    Quote From Cheese
    Quote From AliRadicali
    Quote From Cheese

     

    Quote From AliRadicali

    The problem is that your solution isn't simple or minimalist at all, it's effectively introducing a new mechanic "Starts at" to address a very very minor balance concern affecting 4 cards in the whole game. Whether or not such an intervention is even warranted is a whole separate question, but this solution is deeply inelegant if you ask me.

    I dislike inner fire OTKs as much as the next guy but the problem is clearly with Divine Spirit and Inner Fire, not slightly beefier-than-average minions. High-rolls on effects that randomly summon, evolve or resurrect minions will always be a part of the game, and these aren't even the most egregious examples. Warlock is full of overstatted demons with negative battlecries that are great to get if you don't have to pay the full price.

    Your post oozes with salt. Agree that Priest's core sets need a rework though.

    You started a thread suggesting a nerf to the injured gang of all things. I'm not sure on what basis you're calling anyone else salty.

    He directly borderline insulted me, suggesting that I want those nerfs because I lose a lot against Combo Priest which is absolutely baseless. I main CW with Silence tech and don't have a specific problem with this matchup in terms of winrate. My problem is the same as everyone else: it's unfair. Since IF won't be HoF'd, something else should be done.

    Won't even answer this argument because he obviously just came here to pick a fight.

    I'm amused at how far you're willing to go to avoid a substantive conversation. I "Borderline directly insulted' you? Buddy, not only is that a contradiction in terms, no such thing happened. When I said "I dislike inner fire OTKs as much as the next guy" that was (clearly!) meant to be a conciliatory statement, agreeing that there are problems with the deck you're trying to get nerfed. For you to try to turn that into an insult is some Olympian levels of mental gymnastics, so congrats on that feat.

     

    Instead of scrambling for reasons and rationalisations for why I am the bad guy here maybe re-read our interaction without casting everything I say in the most uncharitable light. You might be surprised at who is picking a fight with whom. 

    ¯\_()_/¯

    If you look back at the post where Cheese quoted both you and Avalon it looks like he got his responses backwards. I don't think he meant to call you salty, but rather he meant to call Avalon salty.

    Carrion, my wayward grub.

    0
  • DarthNihilus's Avatar
    190 52 Posts Joined 06/04/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    @Cheese to me it seems that you never played the deck, if you're going to nerf something in a 'minimalist way' you're nerfing the wrong cards, as someone already posted moving Divine Spirit to the HoF is a good way to fix the problem, i've been playing combo priest the last two months at high legend (im currently 30ish ) i can say for sure that Northshire Cleric is the biggest offender in the deck and it deserve a nerf and Divine Spirit is in the 2nd place (+10 health for 2 mana??? )

    0
  • Cheese's Avatar
    270 163 Posts Joined 05/30/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From MalcolmReynolds
     

    If you look back at the post where Cheese quoted both you and Avalon it looks like he got his responses backwards. I don't think he meant to call you salty, but rather he meant to call Avalon salty.

    Aaah shit you're right, I inverted the quotes. That's why I was so confused by his response. The "salty" comment was directed at Avalon. My bad.

     

    @RavenSunHS - Yes I think resurrect cards should only be high-cost cards. It's not that the base resurrect effect is badly costed, the problem is that when resurrect effects are attached to cheap cards, it can easily become OP with mana-cheating cards or overstatted minions with negative battlecries. Mass Resurrection looks fine because it's a late-game card that is clunky when not used in a dedicated resurrect deck.

    @DarthNihilus - I'm against HoFing Divine Spirit (even if Blizzard seems to prefer this solution) because it illustrates Priest's class identity well, and it is clearly Inner Fire that is the problematic card that should be HoF'd, but Blizzard wants to keep. I tried to come up with something that's not ideal but would fix the in the short (but not long) term. That said, "starts at X damage" makes more sense than a damaging battlecry for these cards.

    And yes, Northshire Cleric would be more balanced as a 2mana 1/4 or a 3mana 1/6 or something.

    0
  • DoubleSummon's Avatar
    Ancestral Recall 1585 2271 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    Let priest be playable for once ffs. 

    0
  • Alfi's Avatar
    Devoted Academic 1790 1375 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From Cheese

     

    @DarthNihilus - I'm against HoFing Divine Spirit (even if Blizzard seems to prefer this solution) because it illustrates Priest's class identity well, and it is clearly Inner Fire that is the problematic card that should be HoF'd, but Blizzard wants to keep. I tried to come up with something that's not ideal but would fix the in the short (but not long) term. That said, "starts at X damage" makes more sense than a damaging battlecry for these cards.

    And yes, Northshire Cleric would be more balanced as a 2mana 1/4 or a 3mana 1/6 or something.

    You are wrong. 

    If you HoF Inner Fire, priest will switch to Crazed Alchemist. Or Topsy Turvy. Or a similar future card. Divine Spirit is the bad cultprit here.

    -=alfi=-

    2
  • Leave a Comment

    You must be signed in to leave a comment. Sign in here.

    ODYN
    0 Users Here