Northshire Cleric & Eternium Rover

  • lMarcusl's Avatar
    390 385 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    You have it all sorts of backwards. It's not ok for a minion to be played turn 1 that requires double its mana cost to be killed. This parity does not exist at any other mana cost. You Fireball a Yeti for equal cost, you Frostbolt a Radiant Elemental for equal cost. Hell, it's often the other way around, where you invest more into the minion than what it takes to kill it (Shadow Word: Death vs say an Emeriss), which makes perfect sense because removal can only be used reactively, while minions are simply played and require an answer before they start causing havoc repeatedly turn after turn. Hence why, for instance, MtG's Terror only costs 2 mana while easily killing minions from costs 1 to infinity. Because removal, on its own, does not pose a threat, while a minon always does. This applies across essentially all card games: removal comes cheaper than the cards it removes. So no, your logic does not apply.

    Similarly, it simply does not make sense in terms of balance at all that an opposing 1-drop should lock you out of the board until you can play a very specific type of 2-drop to kill it. If an opponent drops a Northshire, you now cannot play your own 1-drop on turn 1 (it is by no means limited to 1/1s as you're claiming), and you are locked out of dropping the majority of worthwhile 2-drops as well since a 3/2 statline is generally not desirable over 2/3. In essence, the opponent's 1-drop has just locked you out of the game until you use a 2 cost removal or play a 3 drop (that is assuming the 1 drop does not then receive additional buffs). And that holds for most 1/3s in fact. When Mana Wyrm was a 1-drop it often forced a coined removal just to prevent truckloads of damage the very next turn, Eternium Rover and Glowtron can both snowball through Magnetic, Northshire snowballs card advantage or board presence since it's in a class that has buff spells (hence the recent nerf of Extra Arms), Dire Mole snowballs through beast synergies (Mark of Y'Shaarj, Crackling Razormaw, Timber Wolf) or just plain buffs (Mark of the Wild, Glaivezooka, Acherus Veteran, Dire Wolf Alpha). If not responded to for double the mana, these minions instantly rival 2-drops in terms of statline with almost any type of support, putting the opposing deck immediately behind at least one minion from the get go, because their own non-1/3 1-drop is denied by the opposing 1/3 and they usually lose their 2 drop to the supported 1/3 on the opposing side (while the supporting card either survives, or buffs the 1/3 sufficiently that the 1/3 survives as, say a 2/1 or a 3/1). Hence why, in my not-humble opinion, the hierarchy of mana cost:stat line ratios in Hearthstone is all kinds of fucked up in the early game and requires rebalance. I have yet to see a card game that has a similarly convoluted logic to the early game as HS does.

    2
  • sto650's Avatar
    Santa Braum 635 738 Posts Joined 03/30/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From MalcolmReynolds

    I think the big problem is just that priest as a class never seems to be in a good spot.

    either they have the best deck and everyone hates it, or they are in the worst spot and guess what? it is still annoying to play against. 

    Priest in general does not seem like a very healthy class, no matter where it is in the tier list.

    It's objectively not even the best deck right now. Let's just use the most popular deck from hsreplay for several of the strongest archetypes:

    Murloc Shaman: 57.5% winrate

    Highlander Hunter: 57.85% winrate

    Murloc Paladin: 56.98% winrate

    Aggro Warrior: 57.34% winrate

    Mech Hunter: 57.93% winrate

    Combo Priest: 56.69 % winrate

    I could keep going with quite a few other decks that have similar winrates, but I think I've made my point.

    1
  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From sto650
    Quote From MalcolmReynolds

    I think the big problem is just that priest as a class never seems to be in a good spot.

    either they have the best deck and everyone hates it, or they are in the worst spot and guess what? it is still annoying to play against. 

    Priest in general does not seem like a very healthy class, no matter where it is in the tier list.

    It's objectively not even the best deck right now. Let's just use the most popular deck from hsreplay for several of the strongest archetypes:

    Murloc Shaman: 57.5% winrate

    Highlander Hunter: 57.85% winrate

    Murloc Paladin: 56.98% winrate

    Aggro Warrior: 57.34% winrate

    Mech Hunter: 57.93% winrate

    Combo Priest: 56.69 % winrate

    I could keep going with quite a few other decks that have similar winrates, but I think I've made my point.

    You've made the point that you're good at blindly copying hsreplay data, yes.

    Highlander mage also never had the highest winrate on hsreplay, yet it was cleary the strongest decks from rank 4 onwards.

    Same with combo priest. Filter out all the data from ranks 5 and below and then post those winrates again.

    -1
  • Farenough's Avatar
    120 39 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    Even though Northshire Cleric is way stronger thanEternium Rover, I think the latter shouldn't exist but Cleric is totally fine. When concidering the class cards you shouldn't compare them like neutrals with each other. Cleric in priest is a definite core card that justifies playing a class that heals. That should of course be a strong card and should be like no other card in any other class. Other classes has same kind of very strong effects but combined with some weaknesses they don't break the game. Make every single card in HS neutral and then most class cards will be broken with unlimitted synergies.

    That's why you don't compare Cleric with Mana Wyrm or Crystallizer

    Eternium Rover on the other hand, should not exist in a class that is mostly control oriented (at least at the moment). Because you'd expect a control deck to not have a very strong early game. Rover is stronger than almost every 1 drop in the game and is a huge advantage against aggro decks when played on turn 1. It challanges opponents early drops, on avarage gains 4 armor and it's a mech. As a control deck you usually don't wanna play a 1 drop but this one is so strong that it's an auto include. Imagine control warrior deck running Crystallizer... Makes no sense right? That's why the card shouldn't exist or should be weaker.

    -1
  • YourPrivateNightmare's Avatar
    Skeleton 2010 4741 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    I think it's a bit more class specific than that.

    Eternium Rover is all kinds of busted, mainly because premium 1-drops that fit into slower archetypes have a history of being insanely good. Here you have a 1-drop that can potentially you gain you 6 armor (or even more thanks to magnetize), which makes it the perfect anti-aggro tool in a deck that already excels at this playstyle (basically Zombie Chow without a downside, and we know how good that one was)

    Cleric is a bit of a different story, mainly because Priest doesn't have access to the same control or draw tools as Warrior. The main problem about Cleric isn't so much that it snowballs, but what it snowballs into, which is usually a degenerate OTK. I've said it before and I'll say it again: the entire problem of the Priest class is their reliance on bullshit combos that have little to no counterplay and it'S alll because blizzard refused to give them any other playstyles....until now

    Yeah it turns out that combo Priest made for a pretty cool midrange deck with all the healing and big health minions. The problem being, of course, that because of Divine Spirit you have a deck that can consistently shove you off the board and then just one shot you with nothing you can do about it. If they had just removed Divine Spirit we would be able to push into a more minion/buff based direction. The Quest even plays into that, but no, better just keep one of the oldest and most boring combos around forever.

     

    Also, if they had to be nerfed, I'd rather they'd be at 2-mana instead (like Mana Wyrm) because just nerfing their health means they'll just snowball less often instead of not at all, which just increases the frustration factor due to draw RNG.

    Optionally we could get some decent turn 1 removal for a change....and no, Scorp-o-matic doesn't count.

    I tried having fun once.

    It was awful.

    -1
  • Zwane's Avatar
    Wizard 320 423 Posts Joined 06/04/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    I'd say unnerf Mana Wyrm to balance this priest OP-ness. Would make my mage happy...

    -4
  • YourPrivateNightmare's Avatar
    Skeleton 2010 4741 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From Zwane

    I'd say unnerf Mana Wyrm to balance this priest OP-ness. Would make my mage happy...

    how does that make any sense whatsoever?

    I tried having fun once.

    It was awful.

    2
  • AliRadicali's Avatar
    465 713 Posts Joined 06/06/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From YourPrivateNightmare

    Cleric is a bit of a different story, mainly because Priest doesn't have access to the same control or draw tools as Warrior. 

    If you go by their evergreen cards, Warrior has Shield block to Priest's Power word shield and Northshire Cleric. Both classes use Acolyte fairly well, warrior with whirlwind effects, priest with Wild Pyro and cheap spells, but on top of that draw-heavy priests can use northshire combos and gadetzan Auctioneer.

    Even if Northshire were HoF'ed I'd still say priest would be one of the stronger classes in terms of card draw, although it'd undeniably be a huge hit, since almost any priest deck that cares about card draw would run Northshire alongside the rest of the draw suite. What I'm saying is there's a reason nomi priest was a thing.

    Quote From YourPrivateNightmare

    Yeah it turns out that combo Priest made for a pretty cool midrange deck with all the healing and big health minions. The problem being, of course, that because of Divine Spirit you have a deck that can consistently shove you off the board and then just one shot you with nothing you can do about it. If they had just removed Divine Spirit we would be able to push into a more minion/buff based direction. The Quest even plays into that, but no, better just keep one of the oldest and most boring combos around forever.

    Amen to that.

    0
  • YJHS2000's Avatar
    Uther 315 119 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    Mark my words: Divine Spirit will be in the next HOF rotation.

    Communism is just a red herring

    4
  • KingKrush's Avatar
    Forest 385 130 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    Don't nerf Claric,  HOF Divine Spirit instead.  Maybe even Inner Fire but I think DS would be enough.   Just don't replace it with another Resurrection card!!  No more of those ever!  I hate those cards so much.

    Then un-nerf Mana Worm.  That was unnecessary.

    2
  • Avalon's Avatar
    Salty Dog 1550 2105 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From KingKrush

    Don't nerf Claric,  HOF Divine Spirit instead.  Maybe even Inner Fire but I think DS would be enough.   Just don't replace it with another Resurrection card!!  No more of those ever!  I hate those cards so much.

    Then un-nerf Mana Worm.  That was unnecessary.

    1) Coming from someone that has in Priest the most played class (by far), I just hope they'll HoF the whole (or almost) evergreen set for a new one. Make new cards or bring back some of the Wild ones, I don't care. Playing Divine Spirit Inner Fire is so boring (for the player) and unfair (for the opponent) that I'd gladly sacrifice Northshire Cleric and Power Word: Shield (a card that I don't see mentioned really often and I wonder why: it's an auto include in every Priest deck and is really really good) for something you can actually play and win with.

    2) Yeah, 1 mana Mana Wyrm with Ray of Frost, Mana Cyclone and [Hearthstone Card (Sorcerer Apprentice) Not Found] in Standard at the same time: you guys don't know what you're asking for.

    Spice Lord and self-proclaimed Meme Master.

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    0
  • SaucyPup's Avatar
    170 57 Posts Joined 04/01/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    The 1/3 stat line was originally for the Priest to have something to challenge aggro is my impression.

    Further extending that to Warrior is questionable, as Warrior is already supposed to beat aggro - and it should lose to Priest. 

    No idea why Mage had Manawyrm, guessing its to mirror Magic's Mono Blue Tempo. 

    Here's the confusion tho, Manawyrm was only used for Aggro Mage.  Why is it nerfed so heavily while Cleric and Rover continue in Standard? They slot in automatically in their archetypes with no restriction.

    I think Manawyrm should be reverted and Eternium Rover nerfed.  The stats of 1/3 aren't the problem, it's the upside effect of these cards being worth 2 mana that breaks it. 

    0
  • sto650's Avatar
    Santa Braum 635 738 Posts Joined 03/30/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    Not all of us purchase premium access to hsreplay.

    -1
  • Zwane's Avatar
    Wizard 320 423 Posts Joined 06/04/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From YourPrivateNightmare
    Quote From Zwane

    I'd say unnerf Mana Wyrm to balance this priest OP-ness. Would make my mage happy...

    how does that make any sense whatsoever?

    Well...there are some similarities. Once upon a time Mage had a playable deck featuring a Mana Wyrm which gave the mage something to do at turn 1. Apparently not everybody liked that idea and therefore it was nerfed to 2 mana. Jump ahead a couple of months and now we have Priest using its 1-3 one mana minion to wreak havoc on the HS early game. Other stories about warrior's 1-3 minion are also not unheard of. I think every class should have a useful one mana class card he can play. Mage has none. 

    0
  • Avalon's Avatar
    Salty Dog 1550 2105 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From Zwane
    Quote From YourPrivateNightmare
    Quote From Zwane

    I'd say unnerf Mana Wyrm to balance this priest OP-ness. Would make my mage happy...

    how does that make any sense whatsoever?

    Well...there are some similarities. Once upon a time Mage had a playable deck featuring a Mana Wyrm which gave the mage something to do at turn 1. Apparently not everybody liked that idea and therefore it was nerfed to 2 mana. Jump ahead a couple of months and now we have Priest using its 1-3 one mana minion to wreak havoc on the HS early game. Other stories about warrior's 1-3 minion are also not unheard of. I think every class should have a useful one mana class card he can play. Mage has none. 

    Mage has none for a reason: Mana Cyclone, Ray of Frost and [Hearthstone Card (Sorcerer apprentice) Not Found]. Just get dunked in the head once for 17 on turn 3 and then we'll see about Mana Wyrm being reverted to 1 mana

    Spice Lord and self-proclaimed Meme Master.

    • You can follow me on Twitter - I am always active and you can tag me to highlight your (or someone else's) 12 wins Duels run or really anything Hearthstone-related!
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    -1
  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From sto650

    Not all of us purchase premium access to hsreplay.

    Then don't post incomplete data maybe?

    -1
  • Zwane's Avatar
    Wizard 320 423 Posts Joined 06/04/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    Well if that was the only reason...I would then happily play it on turn 2 and do the 17 dmg on turn 3 any way? Ok I also need Elemental Evocation or Coin in that case. If they do not want that then they should have make it cost 5 mana or something.

    -1
  • Avalon's Avatar
    Salty Dog 1550 2105 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From Zwane

    Well if that was the only reason...I would then happily play it on turn 2 and do the 17 dmg on turn 3 any way? Ok I also need Elemental Evocation or Coin in that case. If they do not want that then they should have make it cost 5 mana or something.

    I mean, there are a ton of low cost mage spell in this rotation: even without Mana Cyclone Mana Wyrm would insanely snowball at 1 mana. 
    It was a problem before stuff like Ray of Frost, Shooting Star, Elemental Evocation and so on, I don't want to think what trouble it would cause now. 

    Moreover, it's not that the devs don't want that, it's more that they want it to happen less frequently/later, in order to have better chances to counter it.

    Spice Lord and self-proclaimed Meme Master.

    • You can follow me on Twitter - I am always active and you can tag me to highlight your (or someone else's) 12 wins Duels run or really anything Hearthstone-related!
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    -1
  • Zwane's Avatar
    Wizard 320 423 Posts Joined 06/04/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From Avalon
    Quote From Zwane

    Well if that was the only reason...I would then happily play it on turn 2 and do the 17 dmg on turn 3 any way? Ok I also need Elemental Evocation or Coin in that case. If they do not want that then they should have make it cost 5 mana or something.

    I mean, there are a ton of low cost mage spell in this rotation: even without Mana Cyclone Mana Wyrm would insanely snowball at 1 mana. 
    It was a problem before stuff like Ray of Frost, Shooting Star, Elemental Invocation and so on, I don't want to think what trouble it would cause now. 

    Moreover, it's not that the devs don't want that, it's more that they want it to happen less frequently/later, in order to have better chances to counter it.

    Ok, but then I also want something to counter that snowballing Priest 1-3 minion...which draws you so many cards with CoH and injured blademasters etc...I mean 0 mana heal up all and get me 4 cards from my deck...that is just too much value and can be compared to a Sorcerer Apprentice / casting some spells for 0 mana / elemental evocation / Cyclone combo, although then you get random spells instead of solid well chosen cards from your deck, and you are not buffing your board. Problem with Priest is they get board, card draw and tempo, including the always looming OTK threat if you leave one big health minion up.

    -2
  • Avalon's Avatar
    Salty Dog 1550 2105 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From Zwane
    Quote From Avalon
    Quote From Zwane

    Well if that was the only reason...I would then happily play it on turn 2 and do the 17 dmg on turn 3 any way? Ok I also need Elemental Evocation or Coin in that case. If they do not want that then they should have make it cost 5 mana or something.

    I mean, there are a ton of low cost mage spell in this rotation: even without Mana Cyclone Mana Wyrm would insanely snowball at 1 mana. 
    It was a problem before stuff like Ray of Frost, Shooting Star, Elemental Invocation and so on, I don't want to think what trouble it would cause now. 

    Moreover, it's not that the devs don't want that, it's more that they want it to happen less frequently/later, in order to have better chances to counter it.

    Ok, but then I also want something to counter that snowballing Priest 1-3 minion...which draws you so many cards with CoH and injured blademasters etc...I mean 0 mana heal up all and get me 4 cards from my deck...that is just too much value and can be compared to a Sorcerer Apprentice / casting some spells for 0 mana / elemental evocation / Cyclone combo, although then you get random spells instead of solid well chosen cards from your deck, and you are not buffing your board. Problem with Priest is they get board, card draw and tempo, including the always looming OTK threat if you leave one big health minion up.

    The point that you're missing is this one: if a card is broken and gets nerfed, you can't pretend to revert it just because there's another OP card. 

    Cleric is a problem? Cool, let's hope the devs will deal with it. Problem solved. If you unnerf Wyrm you'll find yourself with two problems instead of just one

    Spice Lord and self-proclaimed Meme Master.

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    2
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