Switcheroo Priest is the most miserable deck I've ever played against.

  • Neoguli's Avatar
    Duskrider 875 580 Posts Joined 06/25/2019
    Posted 1 year, 1 month ago

    It is what it is. Those classes can build decks around the technical techs into Switcheroo Priest, even if they are otherwise subpar into other decks nor are their strongest decks, but if the Switcheroo Priest is so dominant, then those specific counters can shine and see regular play to some extent.

    "Truth is in the shadows, waiting to be revealed by the light. But light only disperses the shadow." - Me

    "If other people shared traits of those considered naive, the world would've become a better place." - Also me

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  • NLbouncyknight's Avatar
    Supporter 380 101 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 1 year, 1 month ago

    not even 48 hours and already cry about decks that need nerf .
    Thats a big lol

    -9
  • aposteljoe's Avatar
    COMMENT_COUNT_600_HS 1165 644 Posts Joined 06/18/2019
    Posted 1 year, 1 month ago
    Quote From NLbouncyknight

    not even 48 hours and already cry about decks that need nerf .
    Thats a big lol

    Can you elaborate why it's lol? Have you played against the deck? Do you have the opinion that getting two 20/20 Charge minions on turn 3 quite consistentely is a sign for a healthy game state?

    Do you like games where winning or losing doesn't depend on what you do but only if the oppponent gets the right cards?

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  • Maurice's Avatar
    Eldritch Horror 635 287 Posts Joined 07/12/2019
    Posted 1 year, 1 month ago
    Quote From Neoguli

    Releasing Switcheroo at 3 Mana was a mistake. It should cost (4) like Prismatic Lens.

    4 mana wouldn`t make a difference.

    An otk enabler should cost at least 6 mana like Darkest Hour did.

    I see you!

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  • sense124's Avatar
    Mavka 460 437 Posts Joined 07/22/2019
    Posted 1 year, 1 month ago
    Quote From NLbouncyknight

    not even 48 hours and already cry about decks that need nerf .
    Thats a big lol

    Oh trust me, I'm 100% aware that I'm going into this sounding like your average whiny hearthstone player. But if you're not going to give any sort of input and instead be an asshole, then entertain yourself somewhere else.

    I eat your fast food spare changes when you sleep.

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  • sense124's Avatar
    Mavka 460 437 Posts Joined 07/22/2019
    Posted 1 year, 1 month ago
    Quote From Neoguli

    It is what it is. Those classes can build decks around the technical techs into Switcheroo Priest, even if they are otherwise subpar into other decks nor are their strongest decks, but if the Switcheroo Priest is so dominant, then those specific counters can shine and see regular play to some extent.

    Which is exactly why the deck needs to go.

    I don't really understand what you're arguing for here. Are you trying to defend this deck for at least having a counter to it? Every deck technically has a counter if you look hard enough. But if a singular deck would make all other decks run cards for the sole reason to counter that deck then the problem isn't on the player, it's the deck's fault. Your reasoning shouldn't be a norm in deckbuilding.

    When I say "Sole Reason", I mean that the card is essentially useless in other matchups. So Golakka Crawler, Living Dragonbreath, and Skulking Geist doesn't count.

    I eat your fast food spare changes when you sleep.

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  • Neoguli's Avatar
    Duskrider 875 580 Posts Joined 06/25/2019
    Posted 1 year, 1 month ago

    Quote From sense124
    I don't really understand what you're arguing for here. Are you trying to defend this deck for at least having a counter to it?

    PSA you are talking to someone who tried to defend Questline Warlock back in its S-tier Wild hayday (I argued it should be slowed down and not outright banned). I can apply the same principle to Switcheroo Priest, because I do like that it opens a door for people to further express themselves by enjoying playing these highrolly decks, just like I argued QL Warlock was the new Jade Druid-like deck for people who enjoyed that playstyle. I oppose kneecapping decks, because they can curve out a niche, unless they are literally impossible to balance and need a rework to enable more design meta and more meta diversity.

    That said, I would start by nerfing Switcheroo first to weaken both Standard and Wild versions, then see if it continues to overperform in either format and cause metagame damage even when nerfed.

    "Truth is in the shadows, waiting to be revealed by the light. But light only disperses the shadow." - Me

    "If other people shared traits of those considered naive, the world would've become a better place." - Also me

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  • sense124's Avatar
    Mavka 460 437 Posts Joined 07/22/2019
    Posted 1 year, 1 month ago
    Quote From Neoguli

    Quote From sense124
    I don't really understand what you're arguing for here. Are you trying to defend this deck for at least having a counter to it?

    PSA you are talking to someone who tried to defend Questline Warlock back in its S-tier Wild hayday (I argued it should be slowed down and not outright banned). I can apply the same principle to Switcheroo Priest, because I do like that it opens a door for people to further express themselves by enjoying playing these highrolly decks, just like I argued QL Warlock was the new Jade Druid-like deck for people who enjoyed that playstyle. I oppose kneecapping decks, because they can curve out a niche, unless they are literally impossible to balance and need a rework to enable more design meta and more meta diversity.

    That said, I would start by nerfing Switcheroo first to weaken both Standard and Wild versions, then see if it continues to overperform in either format and cause metagame damage even when nerfed.

    Ah well, to each his own. I still believe that the deck needs to go because sure I can see people enjoying Switcheroo priest because it's highrolly and it ends games fast whether or not they win, but it still creates an unhealthy game environment for other people that are forced to play against it.

    Also when I say I want the deck to be gone, I meant to take it away from viability. I can withstand playing against a coinflip deck IF the deck is not meta. Heck, I would even laugh and clap in real life. But when I see the same coinflip over and over and over again, it gets very old.

    I eat your fast food spare changes when you sleep.

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  • Inconspicuosaurus's Avatar
    Pirate King 790 223 Posts Joined 03/30/2019
    Posted 1 year, 1 month ago

    It took me a while to even realise this thread is talking about Wild, because sadly this is happening in Standard too with Twin-fin Fin Twin and Deathwing the Destroyer. Obviously the minions being Rush rather than Charge means you don't die as instantly, but without even the tools Wild has to counter it, there is just as little chance to fend off the two 12/12s before you die the next turn.

    Bliz pls. I just want to play my cool new Colossal minions, not be wrecked by murlocs twice the size :'(

    ~ An expertly disguised dinosaur

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  • Neoguli's Avatar
    Duskrider 875 580 Posts Joined 06/25/2019
    Posted 1 year, 1 month ago

    Snowball Fight! can make the Priest player concede. If they ever dare play Twin-fin on curve, you slam the aforementioned spell onto them and leave a 12/1 that is Frozen. Wild's a more... complicated story. We may see Switcheroo banned from Wild, even.

    On the contrary, I wish we had Bladestorm back as another counter to the strategy.

    "Truth is in the shadows, waiting to be revealed by the light. But light only disperses the shadow." - Me

    "If other people shared traits of those considered naive, the world would've become a better place." - Also me

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  • lMarcusl's Avatar
    365 370 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 1 year, 1 month ago

    For the Wild variant of the deck I'd honestly leave Switcheroo untouched and I'd change Vivid Nightmare instead. Generally, the fact that the card copies the attack has not been particularly relevant in decks that used it in the past, the reason they used it was to copy deathrattles or persistent effects such as Nazmani Bloodweaver or Malygos and such. If you can't copy the boar for the 20 dmg punch, you're left with a 20/20 charge that then requires further shenanigans with Divine Spirit + Inner Fire, which will usually give the opposing deck enough time to either Rat the pig, aggro or combo out the opponent, or otherwise interfere with the gameplan. Then it might be manageable.

    Personal bias but I'd actually hate for Switcheroo to get nerfed in cost. I don't care for the swapping effect at all, but the ability to tutor out two minions out of your deck for the cost of an Arcane Intellect is pretty neat, previously only offered by Insight. I've been using it in Nazmani Bloodweaver + Gadgetzan Auctioneer Priest to discount Prophet Velen, copy it and Mind Blast the opponent to death. Sloppy combo but fun.

    Sadly that wouldn't really help Standard, not sure what the Standard-legal options are there to counter the rush dragons. If it is counterable the meta can adjust and counter the deck into oblivion. Can't speak on that though.

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  • MurlocAggroB's Avatar
    COMMENT_COUNT_800_HS 1160 828 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 1 year, 1 month ago

    Just make it 5 mana. Switcheroo has a degenerate effect and degenerate effects should come with a heavy tax so they don't get too broken.

    A man is lying on the street, some punks chopped off his head

    I'm the only one who stops to see if he's dead.

    Hmm. Turns out he's dead.

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  • Neoguli's Avatar
    Duskrider 875 580 Posts Joined 06/25/2019
    Posted 1 year, 1 month ago

    "Truth is in the shadows, waiting to be revealed by the light. But light only disperses the shadow." - Me

    "If other people shared traits of those considered naive, the world would've become a better place." - Also me

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  • MurlocAggroB's Avatar
    COMMENT_COUNT_800_HS 1160 828 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 1 year, 1 month ago

    Sure, there are answers to it. But that doesn't make it okay or healthy. You need to be running some very specific cards that not every deck can afford to use. Do you really want to run trash like Plague Scientist or Noble Sacrifice in a non-Secret deck just to counter one deck with a 50% winrate? That's just gonna tank your winrate against everything else. You also need to have drawn that specific card by turn 2 -- they're playing a deck designed to tutor, you presumably are not, so that's much less consistent on your end.

    The problem with Switcheroo isn't that it's overpowered. It's sitting at a less than positive winrate. The problem is that doing a coinflip isn't very engaging gameplay, and needs to be changed for that reason.

    A man is lying on the street, some punks chopped off his head

    I'm the only one who stops to see if he's dead.

    Hmm. Turns out he's dead.

    2
  • Cleef2's Avatar
    HearthStationeer 350 206 Posts Joined 04/02/2019
    Posted 1 year, 1 month ago

    I so hope they don't change switcheroo in standard. I finally made silence priest (sort of) work with it. If it's nerged it will be dumbster again...

    But honestly why not change the boar to eg rush? It just feels it limits design space too much...

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  • Neoguli's Avatar
    Duskrider 875 580 Posts Joined 06/25/2019
    Posted 1 year, 1 month ago

    So... ban Board and nerf Twin-fin to summon another Twin-fin and NOT another copy of itself? I swear Blizzard isn't learning the lessons of minions such as Twin-fin or Irondeep Trogg.

    "Truth is in the shadows, waiting to be revealed by the light. But light only disperses the shadow." - Me

    "If other people shared traits of those considered naive, the world would've become a better place." - Also me

    0
  • lMarcusl's Avatar
    365 370 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 1 year, 1 month ago

    I wouldn't mind if they blanket applied this to everything, period. Nothing should summon an identical copy, just copy of the base minion. They could bundle that with the Vivid Nightmare change I suggested. Getting kinda sick of infinite Shudderwocks all the time.

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  • meisterz39's Avatar
    925 1200 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 1 year, 1 month ago

    I completely agree that the Switcheroo Priest is a tilting, highrolly deck, but the data on HSReplay (which is certainly only preliminary since the expansion just launched) suggests that it's generally pretty bad in Standard. In theory that should be enough to fix the problem on its own, but here are some of my thoughts on the cards in question:

    • If the mana cost of Switcheroo were to increase, it would only serve to make the card exclusively relevant to high-roll decks (because it would be too expensive as draw elsewhere). That seems bad.
    • I actually think it's good to have a limited number of cards like Twin-fin Fin Twin that summon a "copy" rather than "another" version of the card. This incentivizes handbuffing strategies, which I think is valuable. Without that copying, it's on par with Spring Rocket in terms of its power level, which seems a little wrong since it's a rare compared to a common.
    • Stonetusk Boar seems to see play in Wild exclusively as part of a degenerate combo deck, but I wouldn't love seeing it removed because a lot of those degenerate combos require assembling lots of cards

    With all that in mind, I think the best fix is to ban Switcheroo in Wild and remove Rush from Twin-fin Fin Twin. The former solves the Wild problem completely, and the latter should make Switcheroo Priest even more vulnerable to aggressive strategies, driving down the win rate for Standard Switcheroo Priest so low that no one will want to play it. (You could consider upping the base stats of the Twin-fin a bit to account for the change.) 

    With these changes, Switcheroo can still be a relevant card in Silence Priest or Miracle Priest strategies, and Twin-fin Fin Twin can still be relevant to handbuff decks where it was clearly intended to be relevant. Switcheroo Priest will still be intact enough for people to play it if they really love that high-rolling nonsense, but it will be slow enough that it won't become a major part of the meta ecosystem.

    1
  • Neoguli's Avatar
    Duskrider 875 580 Posts Joined 06/25/2019
    Posted 1 year, 1 month ago

    Probably the best compromise. I like the proposal of removal of Rush on Twin-fin, as I am not even sure if they are played in Shudderwock decks despite their current effect.

    "Truth is in the shadows, waiting to be revealed by the light. But light only disperses the shadow." - Me

    "If other people shared traits of those considered naive, the world would've become a better place." - Also me

    1
  • dapperdog's Avatar
    Dragon Scholar 1890 5013 Posts Joined 07/29/2019
    Posted 1 year, 1 month ago
    Quote From meisterz39

    I completely agree that the Switcheroo Priest is a tilting, highrolly deck, but the data on HSReplay (which is certainly only preliminary since the expansion just launched) suggests that it's generally pretty bad in Standard. In theory that should be enough to fix the problem on its own, but here are some of my thoughts on the cards in question:

    • If the mana cost of Switcheroo were to increase, it would only serve to make the card exclusively relevant to high-roll decks (because it would be too expensive as draw elsewhere). That seems bad.
    • I actually think it's good to have a limited number of cards like Twin-fin Fin Twin that summon a "copy" rather than "another" version of the card. This incentivizes handbuffing strategies, which I think is valuable. Without that copying, it's on par with Spring Rocket in terms of its power level, which seems a little wrong since it's a rare compared to a common.
    • Stonetusk Boar seems to see play in Wild exclusively as part of a degenerate combo deck, but I wouldn't love seeing it removed because a lot of those degenerate combos require assembling lots of cards

    With all that in mind, I think the best fix is to ban Switcheroo in Wild and remove Rush from Twin-fin Fin Twin. The former solves the Wild problem completely, and the latter should make Switcheroo Priest even more vulnerable to aggressive strategies, driving down the win rate for Standard Switcheroo Priest so low that no one will want to play it. (You could consider upping the base stats of the Twin-fin a bit to account for the change.) 

    With these changes, Switcheroo can still be a relevant card in Silence Priest or Miracle Priest strategies, and Twin-fin Fin Twin can still be relevant to handbuff decks where it was clearly intended to be relevant. Switcheroo Priest will still be intact enough for people to play it if they really love that high-rolling nonsense, but it will be slow enough that it won't become a major part of the meta ecosystem.

    Banning Switcheroo from wild would solve most things, for now. When it eventually rotates, I doubt the world have moved on to the extent that the combo would cease to be relevant. Turn 4 OTK is about as fast as it gets, barring druid bs.

    I can't say I can agree with the twinfin solution though. Removing rush from this indirectly reduces the viability of murloc and handbuff decks, and looking at their power levels I wouldn't call that fair at all, particularly when they can just nerf switcheroo to 4 or limit its draw to cards that costs less than 6.

    But knowing team5, they'd probably just increase switcheroo's and twinfin's costs. An effective though less elegant fix.

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