Deviate Dreadfang is an okay card. Pretty strong but I dont see why druid would want to play this because it costs way too much. So team5 must have been haunted by the same exact problem because they immediately went and printed Fangbound Druid in the same set. So, along with Living Seed (Rank 2), we're looking at potentially having a 4 mana Exotic Mountseller around a druid turn 4 which should more or less destroys the enemy board while pressuring for lethal.
Still unlikely to see any serious play because let's face it, nearly every druid would be playing Celestial Alignment with Lady Anacondra.
Savory Deviate Delight is unlikely to ever see deck inclusion because rogue is dependent on key cards more so than any other class. Its basically a nerf to Wandmaker if anything. But once a while you get this off wandmaker and snipe out Alex from your opponent's hand and earn yourself a laugh
I can see weapon rogues playing this card, but as mentioned, it's more likely coming out of wandmaker than actually being included into a deck unironically.
Its a strong arena card while in standard its just decent. The real strength of the card is the rng effect attached to the 2/2 so you'll almost never kill the ooze unless you can deal with the 2/2 as well.
But I feel only paladin and dhunters can get the best out of this card.
Alright, so now that there's a proper thread opened up for discussion, I'm keen on putting down some thoughts on the overload mechanic. Let's start by addressing the issue which I have unfortunately exaggerated for effect by mistake previously.
I agree with your sentiment that no mechanic is inherently weak (or bad) because like most other things in hearthstone, team5 can push any card or keyword towards any direction as they see fit, and metas are constantly changing so what is accepted then or now can easily be reversed with the release of new cards.
Your list more or less mirrors my own, so I'll just add the one con which is not in it;
- On a design standpoint, overload cards have the unique burden of the need to be inherently good for its cost. You'd ideally want the card to be stronger than the rest, but not so strong that it wins the game outright. That fine balance is then further complicated with the amount of overload to be attached. In effect, its double-layering a process that, let's be honest here, team5 have not always been successful with. For example, Totem Goliath is a strong card but is a 5/5 deathrattle spawn 4 basic totem really worth 5 mana with 2 overload? Evidently not, since its been buffed to only overload for 1 now. Let's assume another buff: that it now only cost 4 mana, and suddenly the card seems too strong even with 2 overload on it.
How do you design an overload card that's supposed to be stronger than other cards of the same mana cost but not broken? The question can also easily be: do we need to design around overload at all? Team5 answers this in the affirmative because they have, from time to time, created cards that synergizes with overload, but that adds yet another unnecessary layer to properly balance all these cards. Hence why, I suspect, that we don't see cards like Lava Shock or Snowfury Giant added into the core set, or why we rarely ever see any new cards of these sort at all.
Also, the poor public opinion on the overload mechanic can partly be attributed to this bizarre 'need' to tack overload onto cards just because. It certainly doesn't help in comparison with cards other classes have. A few common examples would be cards like Neptulon (a joke of a card back then as it still is now, the overload for 3 certainly didn't help), Voltaic Burst (Wound Prey does the same with no drawback), Storm's Wrath (a genuinely good card on its own. Too bad Mark of the Lotus has the same exact words printed on it without the drawback) or Finders Keepers (which is basically the studies card with a reverse drawback). Obviously there are good overload cards that makes sense like Jinyu Waterspeaker and Flamewreathed Faceless who actually give more than they take, but these are in the tiny minority, and I do mean tiny. Like the smallest shrimp in a troupe.
So in conclusion, for me: overload is not inherently bad or weak. But like the inspire mechanic, there's no reason to crack your head just to create more of it. Many of shaman's best cards aren't even overload cards, and at its very best is usually as a finisher anyway when overload is a mere afterthought.
But if we really want to do it, then do it right. Like flamewreathed faceless and jinyu waterspeaker. Not so much like the recent card Mistrunner, for example. You can remove the overload from this card and it'll still be just decent.
Its not just you. Assuredly many of us have been burned from opening packs expecting to get a legendary every 10 packs only to get one close to the pity timer.
But this is a problem more about the foundations of where hearthstone is built, card games in general, and legal-ethical related issues that comes with the idea of selling what amounts to gambling to children.
I really don't mean to sound patronizing, but this kind of stuff properly belongs to the salt threads, because there's literally no discussion here: Hearthstone is expensive, and the packs are inherently stacked against the player. The only real question would be to raise an eyebrow on whether blizz has quietly tilted the scales further in their favour, but since this is a question no outsider of its codes can ever answer, it amounts to looking up into the sky and attempting a prediction of whether it will be raining some time today.
It is a good draw card, but at this point priest doesn't really need something like this.
Although I will concede that this is absolutely what a tempo priest needs. Not so much just the draw, but also a decent body that will come back with Rally!, probably the best card to get out of your deck.
I'm on the fence with this one. If tempo priest does rise up, it'll likely because of this card.
It draws spells, and in dedicated decks that might as well be just drawing the highest win rate card in your deck like Wildfire.
Starscryer does the same but one turn earlier, but no one says you can't just play both. If it does hit a frost spell, you get a bonus - and a really decently good bonus it is.
Its certainly a card, but yes, its likely going to be overplayed and overrated.
You can use this to snipe your opponent's win condition, but in doing so you're practically skipping your turn since the big body doesn't have taunt or rush. Also, as this card gains traction, all your opponent needs to be is to simply ensure that he has at least a few minions in hand to prevent this from sniping, and then condemning the mutanus player to not only skip a turn, but with a mediocre body to boot.
Maybe some shenanigans available in rogue, with scabbs, Potion of Illusion, Preparation, and Efficient Octo-bot. But if you can do that generally you're better off with something like new Alex instead.
The extra 1/1 is really just a bonus that will almost never be relevant unless you're specifically facing poison rogue. It does tutor a spell from the deck, and I'm not completely dismissing the possibility that its simply used to draw key spells like Wildfire.
You play this card, draw 2 cards, one of which is almost always be Cagematch Custodian which will then proceed to draw another card.
Well, let's say that this card will be in shaman for the entire 2 years until its finally rotated. How many shaman cards can ever say the same? This godlike card is simply what shaman needs, and will be using for a long time.
Lol, so the entire internet (myself as well) screamed to the gods that shaman drew like the last piece of trash stuck on the compacter and then team5 overcompensated by practically printing what amounts to Ringmaster Whatley levels of draw power with Primal Dungeoneer. Now I'm absolutely convinced that shaman will be on top, led by burn shaman.
Other cards:
Mutanus the Devourer - It looks really good. But in effect its likely unplayable. You have to first commit to putting this in your deck, then play out something that doesn't affect board tempo for a disruption effect that 90% of the time will never matter in the game. The main problem is that this card costs 7, have no rush or taunt, so its only ever going to be useful in a control deck. Its certainly an option, but its more likely included for the memes rather than the dreams.
Lady anacondra - Very strong in celestial druid, which honestly scares me. You can legit just draw your whole deck out on turn 8 after a Celestial Alignment on 7, then proceed to completely dominate the board while condemning them to 2 cards only the next turn. Very scary card indeed.
Fluffy snake - Its Exotic Mountseller that costs 1 more while removing the rng effect. Probably good, but its fighting for slots in druid.
Fluffy ooze and spell - I like it, but its likely bad.
Devout Dungeoneer - A good card for miracle priest and might actually be what tempo priest need. Nuff said I think.
Frostweave Dungeoneer - Mage is not lacking in draw, but this can tutor out spells like Wildfire in a dedicated deck, while having a chance to annoy the opponent with a freeze minion.
I went with the flashy, more memorable title. So I guess I should expect someone to pick on it.
Obviously its hyperbole, its a sweeping statement. The main problem with the overload mechanic is that the tradeoff is often poor and hearthstone has moved beyond what it was when overload was invented. Back in the day, it was acceptable to just drop a 4 mana 7/7 on coin in exchange for basically skipping a turn because the chances of it sticking for more than a turn is fairly good. Nowadays, there's just so many options available most minions simply never sticks for more than a turn. Flamewreathed Faceless would only be just a good card now. I'm not even sure if Tunnel Trogg and Totem Golem can even cut it in standard nowadays.
I dont think I need to elaborate further on the tradeoff issue. Even when shaman was incredible, i.e. galakrond and the recent evolve meta, none of them were featured anywhere except for Lightning Bloom.
As for the druid comparison, you make good points which I can agree to. But also, both lightning bloom and innervate are still being played but I still rarely ever see druid run out of cards and lose.
Someone should make a thread on this because I do think this is a topic that deserves greater discussion, but I think its simple enough to just ask the question: Can we design a viable overload card thats not just blatantly broken?
Edit: Should have added that there are two other overload cards that are consistently in shaman when it was good: Lightning bolt and lava burst. No need to explain why.
- Handbuff is impossible in dhunters simply because Illidari Inquisitor exist. I'm looking more into cards that give dhunters value or control, maybe some sort of board clear option or discover. Its not what we expect out of the class, but not impossible.
- Shaman only needs one other card draw option to be good. A decent tutoring card, even if its just another Ice Fishing will do wonders for the class. Right now, the problem is that shaman gases out fast, much faster than every other class, and their late game sucks. So I expect either a really powerful late game card, or card draw option.
Oh, and in case the devs are reading, heres a tip assuming you've been avoiding reddit the whole of this and last week. OVERLOAD = BAD. Seriously, why is druid able to cheat mana without any downside while shaman can't get an allegedly overstated card that cripples their next turn?
- I expect more minion support for mage, though knowing team5 there's probably going to be yet another casino card that will fill the salt thread once again. Losing to paladin is nowhere near as disgusting an experience compared to a highrolling mage.
- For hunter its really simple if you want tavish to actually see some play. Just print a 2 mana and 3 mana beast with rush. It doesn't even need to be fancy. Or maybe some crazy beast with high stats but backfiring battlecry.
But more likely we'll just get more deathrattles or face options. Why? Because hunter.
Definitely agree, but I see no hope of this ever coming to be.
For arena its kinda justified, since there is usually a good consensus on what is a good class, but for duels where its largely constructed, I don't see why its not just 'pick the class you want'. This is particularly problematic for duels, since if you have a good idea for a deck you can't just go and play it, but instead have to rely on a near 50-50 chance of that class being available for selection.
I mean, its not like the upper levels aren't completely filled with what is meta anyway, so we can throw that 'representation' excuse out the window. I still remember back in darkmoon, it was dhunters all day everyday for anything past around 4 wins.
But with a whole slew of bugs that usually creeps in whenever they make massive updates like these, I'd rather not take the chance. For now, its not likely to bother anyone but the most hardcore of duels players.
Shaman lacks so many things its not even funny. But I do think that the one thing it does have is a win condition. Doomhammer is still one of its best cards, and if you somehow manage to get this on and not oozed out, it can pretty much win the game for you.
To be honest, I think shaman's barrens cards is still serviceable, certainly nowhere near as bad as many would think. But by not addressing the main problems, it really doesn't matter how many of these 4 star cards team5 prints. Card draw, its really just that. Failing that then there must be a way to reload via generation. Both are denied to shaman, so what are we really expecting? Cagematch Custodian is pretty much carrying the entire class.
Probably a tall order, even if tempo priest somehow manages to get to tier 1. I've seen some tempo priest lists, and tried some myself, but at no point have I ever regretted not having serena in the list.
The problem with this card is that its not really carving much of a niche other cards just can't do better for a class like priest. On top of that, it can't be easily discovered, and mucks up your Raise Dead.
Still, its 2 years until rotation, so there's still yet hope that this card rises from the mud and spits on my face. We'll see.
Deviate Dreadfang is an okay card. Pretty strong but I dont see why druid would want to play this because it costs way too much. So team5 must have been haunted by the same exact problem because they immediately went and printed Fangbound Druid in the same set. So, along with Living Seed (Rank 2), we're looking at potentially having a 4 mana Exotic Mountseller around a druid turn 4 which should more or less destroys the enemy board while pressuring for lethal.
Still unlikely to see any serious play because let's face it, nearly every druid would be playing Celestial Alignment with Lady Anacondra.
Savory Deviate Delight is unlikely to ever see deck inclusion because rogue is dependent on key cards more so than any other class. Its basically a nerf to Wandmaker if anything. But once a while you get this off wandmaker and snipe out Alex from your opponent's hand and earn yourself a laugh
I can see weapon rogues playing this card, but as mentioned, it's more likely coming out of wandmaker than actually being included into a deck unironically.
Its a strong arena card while in standard its just decent. The real strength of the card is the rng effect attached to the 2/2 so you'll almost never kill the ooze unless you can deal with the 2/2 as well.
But I feel only paladin and dhunters can get the best out of this card.
Alright, so now that there's a proper thread opened up for discussion, I'm keen on putting down some thoughts on the overload mechanic. Let's start by addressing the issue which I have unfortunately exaggerated for effect by mistake previously.
I agree with your sentiment that no mechanic is inherently weak (or bad) because like most other things in hearthstone, team5 can push any card or keyword towards any direction as they see fit, and metas are constantly changing so what is accepted then or now can easily be reversed with the release of new cards.
Your list more or less mirrors my own, so I'll just add the one con which is not in it;
- On a design standpoint, overload cards have the unique burden of the need to be inherently good for its cost. You'd ideally want the card to be stronger than the rest, but not so strong that it wins the game outright. That fine balance is then further complicated with the amount of overload to be attached. In effect, its double-layering a process that, let's be honest here, team5 have not always been successful with. For example, Totem Goliath is a strong card but is a 5/5 deathrattle spawn 4 basic totem really worth 5 mana with 2 overload? Evidently not, since its been buffed to only overload for 1 now. Let's assume another buff: that it now only cost 4 mana, and suddenly the card seems too strong even with 2 overload on it.
How do you design an overload card that's supposed to be stronger than other cards of the same mana cost but not broken? The question can also easily be: do we need to design around overload at all? Team5 answers this in the affirmative because they have, from time to time, created cards that synergizes with overload, but that adds yet another unnecessary layer to properly balance all these cards. Hence why, I suspect, that we don't see cards like Lava Shock or Snowfury Giant added into the core set, or why we rarely ever see any new cards of these sort at all.
Also, the poor public opinion on the overload mechanic can partly be attributed to this bizarre 'need' to tack overload onto cards just because. It certainly doesn't help in comparison with cards other classes have. A few common examples would be cards like Neptulon (a joke of a card back then as it still is now, the overload for 3 certainly didn't help), Voltaic Burst (Wound Prey does the same with no drawback), Storm's Wrath (a genuinely good card on its own. Too bad Mark of the Lotus has the same exact words printed on it without the drawback) or Finders Keepers (which is basically the studies card with a reverse drawback). Obviously there are good overload cards that makes sense like Jinyu Waterspeaker and Flamewreathed Faceless who actually give more than they take, but these are in the tiny minority, and I do mean tiny. Like the smallest shrimp in a troupe.
So in conclusion, for me: overload is not inherently bad or weak. But like the inspire mechanic, there's no reason to crack your head just to create more of it. Many of shaman's best cards aren't even overload cards, and at its very best is usually as a finisher anyway when overload is a mere afterthought.
But if we really want to do it, then do it right. Like flamewreathed faceless and jinyu waterspeaker. Not so much like the recent card Mistrunner, for example. You can remove the overload from this card and it'll still be just decent.
Its not just you. Assuredly many of us have been burned from opening packs expecting to get a legendary every 10 packs only to get one close to the pity timer.
But this is a problem more about the foundations of where hearthstone is built, card games in general, and legal-ethical related issues that comes with the idea of selling what amounts to gambling to children.
I really don't mean to sound patronizing, but this kind of stuff properly belongs to the salt threads, because there's literally no discussion here: Hearthstone is expensive, and the packs are inherently stacked against the player. The only real question would be to raise an eyebrow on whether blizz has quietly tilted the scales further in their favour, but since this is a question no outsider of its codes can ever answer, it amounts to looking up into the sky and attempting a prediction of whether it will be raining some time today.
Its druid. Apparently theres some constitutional law in team5 that they must be utterly broken or completely helpless.
Guess its going to be Cult Neophyte or bust once again.
It is a good draw card, but at this point priest doesn't really need something like this.
Although I will concede that this is absolutely what a tempo priest needs. Not so much just the draw, but also a decent body that will come back with Rally!, probably the best card to get out of your deck.
I'm on the fence with this one. If tempo priest does rise up, it'll likely because of this card.
It draws spells, and in dedicated decks that might as well be just drawing the highest win rate card in your deck like Wildfire.
Starscryer does the same but one turn earlier, but no one says you can't just play both. If it does hit a frost spell, you get a bonus - and a really decently good bonus it is.
Its certainly a card, but yes, its likely going to be overplayed and overrated.
You can use this to snipe your opponent's win condition, but in doing so you're practically skipping your turn since the big body doesn't have taunt or rush. Also, as this card gains traction, all your opponent needs to be is to simply ensure that he has at least a few minions in hand to prevent this from sniping, and then condemning the mutanus player to not only skip a turn, but with a mediocre body to boot.
Maybe some shenanigans available in rogue, with scabbs, Potion of Illusion, Preparation, and Efficient Octo-bot. But if you can do that generally you're better off with something like new Alex instead.
The extra 1/1 is really just a bonus that will almost never be relevant unless you're specifically facing poison rogue. It does tutor a spell from the deck, and I'm not completely dismissing the possibility that its simply used to draw key spells like Wildfire.
You play this card, draw 2 cards, one of which is almost always be Cagematch Custodian which will then proceed to draw another card.
Well, let's say that this card will be in shaman for the entire 2 years until its finally rotated. How many shaman cards can ever say the same? This godlike card is simply what shaman needs, and will be using for a long time.
Lol, so the entire internet (myself as well) screamed to the gods that shaman drew like the last piece of trash stuck on the compacter and then team5 overcompensated by practically printing what amounts to Ringmaster Whatley levels of draw power with Primal Dungeoneer. Now I'm absolutely convinced that shaman will be on top, led by burn shaman.
Other cards:
Mutanus the Devourer - It looks really good. But in effect its likely unplayable. You have to first commit to putting this in your deck, then play out something that doesn't affect board tempo for a disruption effect that 90% of the time will never matter in the game. The main problem is that this card costs 7, have no rush or taunt, so its only ever going to be useful in a control deck. Its certainly an option, but its more likely included for the memes rather than the dreams.
Lady anacondra - Very strong in celestial druid, which honestly scares me. You can legit just draw your whole deck out on turn 8 after a Celestial Alignment on 7, then proceed to completely dominate the board while condemning them to 2 cards only the next turn. Very scary card indeed.
Fluffy snake - Its Exotic Mountseller that costs 1 more while removing the rng effect. Probably good, but its fighting for slots in druid.
Fluffy ooze and spell - I like it, but its likely bad.
Devout Dungeoneer - A good card for miracle priest and might actually be what tempo priest need. Nuff said I think.
Frostweave Dungeoneer - Mage is not lacking in draw, but this can tutor out spells like Wildfire in a dedicated deck, while having a chance to annoy the opponent with a freeze minion.
Thanks. Are Zhym and Swidz's relegation confirmed? I mean, isn't Ayrok technically only 1 point below Zhym and 2 points below Swidz?
If Ayrok loses to Frenetic, then he'll have only 6 points right?
Short preview. I guess the giant murloc isn't a shaman exclusive. Oh well.
It also shows its costs, and attack value. Probably more meme and interesting than outright muscling its way into your deck list kind of legendary.
Isnt any druid that's not token basically plays nothing for 3 turns?
I went with the flashy, more memorable title. So I guess I should expect someone to pick on it.
Obviously its hyperbole, its a sweeping statement. The main problem with the overload mechanic is that the tradeoff is often poor and hearthstone has moved beyond what it was when overload was invented. Back in the day, it was acceptable to just drop a 4 mana 7/7 on coin in exchange for basically skipping a turn because the chances of it sticking for more than a turn is fairly good. Nowadays, there's just so many options available most minions simply never sticks for more than a turn. Flamewreathed Faceless would only be just a good card now. I'm not even sure if Tunnel Trogg and Totem Golem can even cut it in standard nowadays.
I dont think I need to elaborate further on the tradeoff issue. Even when shaman was incredible, i.e. galakrond and the recent evolve meta, none of them were featured anywhere except for Lightning Bloom.
As for the druid comparison, you make good points which I can agree to. But also, both lightning bloom and innervate are still being played but I still rarely ever see druid run out of cards and lose.
Someone should make a thread on this because I do think this is a topic that deserves greater discussion, but I think its simple enough to just ask the question: Can we design a viable overload card thats not just blatantly broken?
Edit: Should have added that there are two other overload cards that are consistently in shaman when it was good: Lightning bolt and lava burst. No need to explain why.
Just a few comments;
- Handbuff is impossible in dhunters simply because Illidari Inquisitor exist. I'm looking more into cards that give dhunters value or control, maybe some sort of board clear option or discover. Its not what we expect out of the class, but not impossible.
- Shaman only needs one other card draw option to be good. A decent tutoring card, even if its just another Ice Fishing will do wonders for the class. Right now, the problem is that shaman gases out fast, much faster than every other class, and their late game sucks. So I expect either a really powerful late game card, or card draw option.
Oh, and in case the devs are reading, heres a tip assuming you've been avoiding reddit the whole of this and last week. OVERLOAD = BAD. Seriously, why is druid able to cheat mana without any downside while shaman can't get an allegedly overstated card that cripples their next turn?
- I expect more minion support for mage, though knowing team5 there's probably going to be yet another casino card that will fill the salt thread once again. Losing to paladin is nowhere near as disgusting an experience compared to a highrolling mage.
- For hunter its really simple if you want tavish to actually see some play. Just print a 2 mana and 3 mana beast with rush. It doesn't even need to be fancy. Or maybe some crazy beast with high stats but backfiring battlecry.
But more likely we'll just get more deathrattles or face options. Why? Because hunter.
Definitely agree, but I see no hope of this ever coming to be.
For arena its kinda justified, since there is usually a good consensus on what is a good class, but for duels where its largely constructed, I don't see why its not just 'pick the class you want'. This is particularly problematic for duels, since if you have a good idea for a deck you can't just go and play it, but instead have to rely on a near 50-50 chance of that class being available for selection.
I mean, its not like the upper levels aren't completely filled with what is meta anyway, so we can throw that 'representation' excuse out the window. I still remember back in darkmoon, it was dhunters all day everyday for anything past around 4 wins.
But with a whole slew of bugs that usually creeps in whenever they make massive updates like these, I'd rather not take the chance. For now, its not likely to bother anyone but the most hardcore of duels players.
Shaman lacks so many things its not even funny. But I do think that the one thing it does have is a win condition. Doomhammer is still one of its best cards, and if you somehow manage to get this on and not oozed out, it can pretty much win the game for you.
To be honest, I think shaman's barrens cards is still serviceable, certainly nowhere near as bad as many would think. But by not addressing the main problems, it really doesn't matter how many of these 4 star cards team5 prints. Card draw, its really just that. Failing that then there must be a way to reload via generation. Both are denied to shaman, so what are we really expecting? Cagematch Custodian is pretty much carrying the entire class.
Probably a tall order, even if tempo priest somehow manages to get to tier 1. I've seen some tempo priest lists, and tried some myself, but at no point have I ever regretted not having serena in the list.
The problem with this card is that its not really carving much of a niche other cards just can't do better for a class like priest. On top of that, it can't be easily discovered, and mucks up your Raise Dead.
Still, its 2 years until rotation, so there's still yet hope that this card rises from the mud and spits on my face. We'll see.
I'm stunned to see that this deck has an actual win condition other than driving the opponent bananas. Well done