Regarding The Rekindler, I don't think it would be appropriate to nerf it unless you can come up with a couple of other decks where it's truly oppressive.
If Hecarim is pretty much the only time Rekindler is a problem, that points to the real problem being Hecarim. In fact, Rekindler could make a good canary in the coal mine for detecting troublesome Champions in general.
Believe it or not, this is a sign of a healthy game.
It means there are so many viable decks out there that you cannot just pick the "best" one and rely on it to propel you up the ladder. The meta shifts quickly as different streamers popularize different decks, with many switching it up every day or two.
And of course, players who build their own decks have a pretty good chance of putting together something that works in a game that makes the claim, "Every card should have a home."
This may seem daunting for players with small collections, but the good news is that you can often go back to an old favorite that you thought had stopped working, and suddenly find that it's strong again. The other good news is that you can complete quests against the AI, so there's a path forward even when it seems like absolutely nothing can win in PvP.
There may be some confusion about what you mean by "low level." Were you looking for a budget deck, or something that is simple to pilot?
I assume you know how to search for budget decks.
For easier decks to get some practice with the game, try the Fearsome aggro list or maybe Ephemerals. Good Champions for getting your feet wet are Elise and Zed. Also, any Hecarim deck is going to be a powerhouse, and he's pretty straightforward if you don't immediately try to dive in with his combo deck.
Yasuo is one of the worst Champions for new players, as he is a) actually pretty mediocre, and b) fairly difficult to use well.
If your collection is starting to look nice and solid, maybe you are starting to think about what resources you'll need when the first expansion drops. Even if you're not there yet, you will be eventually, right? Just keep opening those Vaults and leveling those regions!
So I thought it might be helpful to tally up the cost of a full set per region. After all, it's looking like that's how expansions are going to be released: as a couple of new regions, plus maybe some new Champions for existing regions. We can't be sure how many new regions to expect per expansion. I would say probably two, but it could be three or even just one.
In any case, here's what that will cost:
At present each region contains 4 Champions, 6 epics, 18 rares, and 25 commons. Times three for a full set, that's 12 Champion, 18 epic, 54 rare, and 75 common wildcards you will need.
If you're buying wildcards with coins, it takes only four weeks to acquire a region's worth of Champions, but six weeks for epics, nine weeks for rares, and 12.5 weeks for commons! Obviously, no one would ever need or want to acquire a whole set with coins, though. It's just interesting to me how long it would take.
The shard prices are 3000, 1200, 300, and 100 respectively, which means a total shard cost of 36000 + 21600 + 16200 + 7500 = 81300 shards per complete region. (Please correct my arithmetic if you spot an error!) Coin prices are equal to 1/10 of shard prices, so that's 8130 if you're going the wildcard route. (You can get 5350 coins for $50 U.S. or 11000 for $100.)
If they release two regions, that's 162600 shards, and for three it jumps to 243900. For each additional hero they add to old regions, tack on another 9000 shards.
Certain strategies, like saving up Expedition tokens, can help offset some of this, and don't forget there will be region rewards for the new regions. I thought about calculating the shard value of that, but the stupid random upgrade system makes that weird. I could take the average case, but frankly I don't feel like it. My gut tells me if you reach max level, it could reduce the overall shard cost by about a quarter to a third, depending on your luck. If someone wants to do the actual math, I'll be happy to update this post.
Anyway, now you know the ballpark amounts you'll be facing as you save up, so you can set goals for shard saving or anticipate how much cash you'll want to spend.
The problem with Hecarim is they just packed way too many different threats into one card. That may seem obvious, but what I'm getting at is that such a complicated card is extremely complicated to nerf. He is oppressive in many different deck types, but it's for a different reason in each of them.
His baseline problem is the crazy amount of offense he brings for 6 mana, so increasing the mana cost might make sense. Overwhelm isn't an issue at all when he's just a single 4/6. But a higher mana cost won't stop the insanity that happens when you clone him.
His synergies with other Shadow Isles cards may lead you to examine those other cards to give him a backdoor nerf through them, but these synergies aren't a factor in his most egregious abuse cases.
When you make Ephemeral clones of him, the problem is that he buffs Ephemerals AND has Overwhelm, so it seems like one of those properties needs to be looked at. But as mentioned above, those things aren't the biggest issue when he's not being cloned.
This leads me to believe a stat reduction is in order. He would be fine at 6 mana if he were easier to kill, and his Overwhelm can be mitigated without removing the keyword if you just reduce his power. So maybe a 3/5 would be fine, leaving all the rest alone.
Imo Lux still doesn't cut it. The value she can generate from 6 mana spells pales in comparison to Heimer. I think she should be cheaper with lowered stats, then she can be a "tempo" alternative to Heimer.
It has been a few days since you posted this. Do you still feel this way?
I find Lux to be a very solid Champion in several different region pairings.
Judging by the interactions in this thread, it really does seem like you haven't fully appreciated the subtle -- but extremely important -- differences between this and other card games. My advice would be to watch a streamer, pause frequently to try to predict their plays, and take note when and why you are wrong.
Most of the time when they do something you didn't expect, it is not just a difference of opinion. And because you have experience with other games, I'm willing to bet your errors have little to do with general fundamentals and everything to do with the many unique aspects of Runeterra.
Yes, I probably sound like a broken record, but I really think this rewards system was not well planned at all.
But on the other hand... better or worse than just straight up random packs?
Miles better, of course. As I say in other threads, that's a very promising start. I just don't think they put much thought into the details of the region system.
While this game is much more generous than Hearthstone, it's still a gacha system at its core. Eventually your rewards are going to max out and you won't have any choice other than your weekly vault, which is basically nothing, even at three diamonds. When more sets come out, you will have to spend money to keep up.
I'm not sure what you mean by "keep up," but that doesn't sound right to me.
At the moment, most free players who have been putting in the time on quests and daily PvP bonuses should easily have at least a couple of viable meta decks. Do you expect more than that for free?
I don't think it's unreasonable for Riot to expect people to spend money if they want a large, diverse collection. If that's what you mean by "keep up," then no, you should not be getting that for free.
In the meantime, I had a 2nd game with Yasuo where my 2 early-game Navori Conspirators didn't count towards his level-up. Then I played Yasuo on round 4 or 5, played a stun spell the next turn, and that brought him up to 1/5.
I reported both scenarios in as much detail as I could via support ticket, and they told me they forwarded the data to the development team. Fingers crossed they'll be able to snuff out the bug.
Are you saying you didn't get the "PING" and Yasuo card flash by your deck at all when you played the Conspirators, or you did get that part but the number on the Yasuo card didn't change?
As I've said in other threads, I hate that their way of adding value to chests is by random upgrades. If I were into slot machines, I'd be playing a slot machine app.
They should be empower the player to make strong choices in building a collection, not drop a random mess in your lap to see what you can cobble together. If you like the latter, that's what Expeditions are for. If you prefer the former, maybe all rewards should be wildcards, in keeping with their cash shop philosophy of no random packs.
Yes, I probably sound like a broken record, but I really think this rewards system was not well planned at all.
I'm honestly not a fan of any part of the current reward system, and I'm actually thrilled to see the cracks are showing. I mean, their heart is in the right place by not selling randomized packs, but it still needs a lot of work.
For example, there are a lot of feels-bad moments as you level up a region. You earn 2500 XP (or whatever) to open a golden chest and find 2 epics, 4 rares and a bunch of commons. Then you have to earn 2750 more XP to earn a single epic at the next level? So dumb.
If they believe their own statement about making every card playable, it seems to me they should just make all rewards wildcards. They could do away with shards altogether because there would be no such thing as extras.
Maybe add some sort of manual upgrade system where you can turn 4 common wildcards into 1 rare, etc.
I've seen Rummage in a couple of these lists, and I have to say I find it pretty clunky.
I never have any problem keeping a big hand, especially with two Progress Day!s.
I'd rather have some Entreat to ensure that sweet E-Z action as soon as he levels up, or another copy after he dies, or another copy while he's still alive because Ezreal's Mystic Shot is awesome.
Just accept that Barrier negates damage after it has been dealt, and everything falls into place for this and many other interactions (such as Overwhelm).
It is also helpful to remember that "negates" only means that the damage (which definitely was dealt and definitely exists) has no effect -- that is to say, it is not subtracted from the protected unit's Health.
Drain damage, however, is apparently not the same as normal damage, it is more of a zero-sum game: The Health you regain has to come from somewhere, so if nothing was actually taken from an enemy, nothing is gained by you. (But the damage is still being "dealt" and negated by Barrier.)
Illithids are my favorite villains in D&D, and turn-based games are my favorite CRPGs. Yes, I'm in.
Regarding The Rekindler, I don't think it would be appropriate to nerf it unless you can come up with a couple of other decks where it's truly oppressive.
If Hecarim is pretty much the only time Rekindler is a problem, that points to the real problem being Hecarim. In fact, Rekindler could make a good canary in the coal mine for detecting troublesome Champions in general.
Believe it or not, this is a sign of a healthy game.
It means there are so many viable decks out there that you cannot just pick the "best" one and rely on it to propel you up the ladder. The meta shifts quickly as different streamers popularize different decks, with many switching it up every day or two.
And of course, players who build their own decks have a pretty good chance of putting together something that works in a game that makes the claim, "Every card should have a home."
This may seem daunting for players with small collections, but the good news is that you can often go back to an old favorite that you thought had stopped working, and suddenly find that it's strong again. The other good news is that you can complete quests against the AI, so there's a path forward even when it seems like absolutely nothing can win in PvP.
There may be some confusion about what you mean by "low level." Were you looking for a budget deck, or something that is simple to pilot?
I assume you know how to search for budget decks.
For easier decks to get some practice with the game, try the Fearsome aggro list or maybe Ephemerals. Good Champions for getting your feet wet are Elise and Zed. Also, any Hecarim deck is going to be a powerhouse, and he's pretty straightforward if you don't immediately try to dive in with his combo deck.
Yasuo is one of the worst Champions for new players, as he is a) actually pretty mediocre, and b) fairly difficult to use well.
If your collection is starting to look nice and solid, maybe you are starting to think about what resources you'll need when the first expansion drops. Even if you're not there yet, you will be eventually, right? Just keep opening those Vaults and leveling those regions!
So I thought it might be helpful to tally up the cost of a full set per region. After all, it's looking like that's how expansions are going to be released: as a couple of new regions, plus maybe some new Champions for existing regions. We can't be sure how many new regions to expect per expansion. I would say probably two, but it could be three or even just one.
In any case, here's what that will cost:
At present each region contains 4 Champions, 6 epics, 18 rares, and 25 commons. Times three for a full set, that's 12 Champion, 18 epic, 54 rare, and 75 common wildcards you will need.
If you're buying wildcards with coins, it takes only four weeks to acquire a region's worth of Champions, but six weeks for epics, nine weeks for rares, and 12.5 weeks for commons! Obviously, no one would ever need or want to acquire a whole set with coins, though. It's just interesting to me how long it would take.
The shard prices are 3000, 1200, 300, and 100 respectively, which means a total shard cost of 36000 + 21600 + 16200 + 7500 = 81300 shards per complete region. (Please correct my arithmetic if you spot an error!) Coin prices are equal to 1/10 of shard prices, so that's 8130 if you're going the wildcard route. (You can get 5350 coins for $50 U.S. or 11000 for $100.)
If they release two regions, that's 162600 shards, and for three it jumps to 243900. For each additional hero they add to old regions, tack on another 9000 shards.
Certain strategies, like saving up Expedition tokens, can help offset some of this, and don't forget there will be region rewards for the new regions. I thought about calculating the shard value of that, but the stupid random upgrade system makes that weird. I could take the average case, but frankly I don't feel like it. My gut tells me if you reach max level, it could reduce the overall shard cost by about a quarter to a third, depending on your luck. If someone wants to do the actual math, I'll be happy to update this post.
Anyway, now you know the ballpark amounts you'll be facing as you save up, so you can set goals for shard saving or anticipate how much cash you'll want to spend.
The problem with Hecarim is they just packed way too many different threats into one card. That may seem obvious, but what I'm getting at is that such a complicated card is extremely complicated to nerf. He is oppressive in many different deck types, but it's for a different reason in each of them.
His baseline problem is the crazy amount of offense he brings for 6 mana, so increasing the mana cost might make sense. Overwhelm isn't an issue at all when he's just a single 4/6. But a higher mana cost won't stop the insanity that happens when you clone him.
His synergies with other Shadow Isles cards may lead you to examine those other cards to give him a backdoor nerf through them, but these synergies aren't a factor in his most egregious abuse cases.
When you make Ephemeral clones of him, the problem is that he buffs Ephemerals AND has Overwhelm, so it seems like one of those properties needs to be looked at. But as mentioned above, those things aren't the biggest issue when he's not being cloned.
This leads me to believe a stat reduction is in order. He would be fine at 6 mana if he were easier to kill, and his Overwhelm can be mitigated without removing the keyword if you just reduce his power. So maybe a 3/5 would be fine, leaving all the rest alone.
100 percent this.
A reset would make no sense whatsoever.
It has been a few days since you posted this. Do you still feel this way?
I find Lux to be a very solid Champion in several different region pairings.
Judging by the interactions in this thread, it really does seem like you haven't fully appreciated the subtle -- but extremely important -- differences between this and other card games. My advice would be to watch a streamer, pause frequently to try to predict their plays, and take note when and why you are wrong.
Most of the time when they do something you didn't expect, it is not just a difference of opinion. And because you have experience with other games, I'm willing to bet your errors have little to do with general fundamentals and everything to do with the many unique aspects of Runeterra.
Shadow Isles has the best chance to deal with her with its multitude of removal spells.
Piltover & Zaun is almost as easy.
Noxus has Whilrling Death ... use it wisely!
Ionia has Mark of Death and Yasuo. You're probably going to have to rely on your deck's other region unless you have lots of stun/recall.
Freljord can Frostbite her to keep her from bouncing, then use a Challenger to finish her off (if you're lucky).
Demacia can Detain her, use Single Combat or Judgment, or just chump block every time she appears.
If you are not running any of these options, yeah, you're pretty much screwed (also maybe not the best deckbuilder?).
I keep forgetting StrifeCro is into LoR now. I need to give him a look-see.
I'm loving Mogwai's Karmalux, though!
It's refreshing to be playing a game where so many different deck lists are both fun and relevant!
Miles better, of course. As I say in other threads, that's a very promising start. I just don't think they put much thought into the details of the region system.
I'm not sure what you mean by "keep up," but that doesn't sound right to me.
At the moment, most free players who have been putting in the time on quests and daily PvP bonuses should easily have at least a couple of viable meta decks. Do you expect more than that for free?
I don't think it's unreasonable for Riot to expect people to spend money if they want a large, diverse collection. If that's what you mean by "keep up," then no, you should not be getting that for free.
Are you saying you didn't get the "PING" and Yasuo card flash by your deck at all when you played the Conspirators, or you did get that part but the number on the Yasuo card didn't change?
As I've said in other threads, I hate that their way of adding value to chests is by random upgrades. If I were into slot machines, I'd be playing a slot machine app.
They should be empower the player to make strong choices in building a collection, not drop a random mess in your lap to see what you can cobble together. If you like the latter, that's what Expeditions are for. If you prefer the former, maybe all rewards should be wildcards, in keeping with their cash shop philosophy of no random packs.
Yes, I probably sound like a broken record, but I really think this rewards system was not well planned at all.
I'm honestly not a fan of any part of the current reward system, and I'm actually thrilled to see the cracks are showing. I mean, their heart is in the right place by not selling randomized packs, but it still needs a lot of work.
For example, there are a lot of feels-bad moments as you level up a region. You earn 2500 XP (or whatever) to open a golden chest and find 2 epics, 4 rares and a bunch of commons. Then you have to earn 2750 more XP to earn a single epic at the next level? So dumb.
If they believe their own statement about making every card playable, it seems to me they should just make all rewards wildcards. They could do away with shards altogether because there would be no such thing as extras.
Maybe add some sort of manual upgrade system where you can turn 4 common wildcards into 1 rare, etc.
Ionia - finished
Piltover & Zaun - finished
The rest are all in the 8-12 range.
I've seen Rummage in a couple of these lists, and I have to say I find it pretty clunky.
I never have any problem keeping a big hand, especially with two Progress Day!s.
I'd rather have some Entreat to ensure that sweet E-Z action as soon as he levels up, or another copy after he dies, or another copy while he's still alive because Ezreal's Mystic Shot is awesome.
Just accept that Barrier negates damage after it has been dealt, and everything falls into place for this and many other interactions (such as Overwhelm).
It is also helpful to remember that "negates" only means that the damage (which definitely was dealt and definitely exists) has no effect -- that is to say, it is not subtracted from the protected unit's Health.
Drain damage, however, is apparently not the same as normal damage, it is more of a zero-sum game: The Health you regain has to come from somewhere, so if nothing was actually taken from an enemy, nothing is gained by you. (But the damage is still being "dealt" and negated by Barrier.)
It definitely does not keep buffs.
It also regains Ephemeral if you removed that keyword.