He said that cards will rotate out eventually--i.e., that it won't be eternal. He didn't commit to any timeframe. With the notable exception of Yu-Gi-Oh, every competitive collectible card game I can think of that's more than 3 years old--MtG, Hearthstone, Pokemon, Netrunner, even HeroClix if you want to count that--has adopted some form of rotation that takes older cards out of the main format to make space for new sets. This is more a tacit acknowledgement of the inevitable than a statement of caveat emptor.
In the closed beta, Cloud Drinker had an enlightened ability to decrease by 2 instead of 1, and it was insane when combo'd with Karma. Granted you still had to make it to 10 mana, but once you did it was basically GG.
Maybe the trick here is to do something similar: i.e., find a unassuming follower and give it something like Enlightened: whenever you summon a follower, add a copy to your hand. Or cast again this turn / "echo" if that's too much. Basically: HS's Glinda Crowskin, but it doesn't work with champions. A late game 6/6 LS for 3 mana is unimpressive; but three 6/6 LS for 9 mana is another story--you heal to full if they all connect. Same story with Feral Mystic and five 6/6 overwhelms for 10 mana.
This assumes Enlightened isn't fine as it is, and needs some level of fixing. In MTG, cards with a kicker are typically weaker than their non-kickered counterparts, but they are more flexible because they get more value later. Being a bit on the weaker end is an important part of that trade-off. If you didn't have that, you'd just auto-pick kicker cards over non-kicker cards all the time.
Honestly, I think Enlightened is the keyword that's hardest to balance because its condition is inevitable and uninteractable. (Returning to my MTG comparison, at least in that case you can go land dry, or your opponent can destroy your lands.) If the game goes long enough, you'll reach 10 mana gems, so non-Champion cards that benefit from the Enlightened keyword need to have more subdued effects rather than game-ending ones, or you'll see them in all control decks. So, these cards are probably fine as they are for now.
I think you misunderstand me. I'm not advocating we directly change anything about Emerald Awakener or Feral Mystic, I'm advocating that we create another card that gives it some combo potential. It becomes more like an exodia package: if you happen to draw all the right cards and land them on the board while still defending your nexus, you basically win the game when you hit enlightened. Meanwhile your opponent knows this is coming so they ratchet up the pressure, and you both have to make decisions about how much to sacrifice. E.g., do you play an Awakener early just to use as a chump block? Do put this yet-to-be-named card on the field and risk letting it get targeted? I do admit, though: you wouldn't want to just put this card in Frejlord or SI because as you point out those regions have no problem fielding a deck that lasts until Round 10. I was thinking more like Demacia to pull the existing control archetypes out of their comfortable region combinations.
Sort of like Parade Electrorig and the Elnuks package: they're OK cards by themselves that you probably would cut from most deck lists, but they multiple each others' power so you get a really nice synergy if you play them together. It's not an meta-breaking combo, but its interesting and different and at least good enough to be novel.
FYI, you might be better off trying to get every region to 8 (the first free champion) rather than trying to go all the way to 20. The reward-to-XP ratio is much better that way.
Swimstream kept saying in his channel that he was "100% sure they couldn't POSSIBLY let you carry wildcards over", and that just made zero sense to me. Maybe because he thought Riot had some type of design philosophy against letting players' deck collections grow too suddenly? Except realistically, they're already letting you buy 3 champion wildcards a week plus 3 expedition tokens plus giving free champions out fairly generously with the region rewards and (if you're lucky) vaults so I couldn't figure how preventing players from using existing wildcards would make an inch of difference in the grand scheme of things.
In the closed beta, Cloud Drinker had an enlightened ability to decrease by 2 instead of 1, and it was insane when combo'd with Karma. Granted you still had to make it to 10 mana, but once you did it was basically GG.
Maybe the trick here is to do something similar: i.e., find a unassuming follower and give it something like Enlightened: whenever you summon a follower, add a copy to your hand. Or cast again this turn / "echo" if that's too much. Basically: HS's Glinda Crowskin, but it doesn't work with champions. A late game 6/6 LS for 3 mana is unimpressive; but three 6/6 LS for 9 mana is another story--you heal to full if they all connect. Same story with Feral Mystic and five 6/6 overwhelms for 10 mana.
I've been playing Frejlord/Noxus Battle Scars and even with my oddball decklist I am DESTROYING the solo Ezreal decks. Words cannot describe how deeply gratifying it is to attack into them with a wide board that includes Legion Veteran and Vladimir: they immediately frost bite the biggest guys and setup value blocks, then they must use the blue eye to see they still die so they setup desperation blocks, then they exhaust their mana trying every trick they can and slowly realize there just is no getting around the damage from Crimson Pact or the way it is giving everyone additional attack...
Admittedly, I'm seeing that version a lot more than the Heimer variant lately and the few times I have seen Heimer I've struggled. I've also been seeing an interesting Noxus/P&Z champion-less decklist that is 100% aggro; I struggle to keep up with that and imagine its even worse for the decks you mention as they tend to skimp on early game board presence.
Yeah, I'm with 40 here--especially if you're still running this Lucian / Darius midrange deck from your profile. Decks of that speed are EXPECTED to lose to Frejlord control decks, man: you're just slow enough that you can't burst them before they get Ezreal/Heimer online, and too little value to win the long game. Your opponents probably couldn't ask for a better matchup outside of Fiora decks.
If you really want to burst them, I think you're looking at SI/Noxus spiders, SI/P&Z mistwraiths, or Noxus/P&Z discard. If you want to out-value them, I think its either Heimer/Karma, Heimer/Lux, or maybe SI/Demacia dawnspiders. Or you can try to invent something new--and I think that's the real issue right now. There are still so many archetypes waiting to be refined, and most players latch on to whatever they see stream and/or read off Mobalytics (full disclosure: I referenced their site just now to craft this response). As clutch as frostbite can be, its still just a 1-turn stall and its costed fairly expensive. There HAS to be decks that can easily out-swarm it, and there HAS to be decks that out-weather it. The fact that answers don't readily come to mind just shows how far we have to yet to grow as a community.
It's definitely an underwhelming card at first glance.
A few prospects:
Rushing to enlightenment (i.e., a Karma deck)--probably Ionia / Frejlord control deck. I think this is where Riot envisions this card.
Stat buffs--probably also Ionia / Frejlord thanks to Hearthguard and Omen Hawk, but you could try something like Demacia
Frost biting the awakener doesn't take damage yet you heal for 2--again, this is Ionia / Frejlord
Cloning via Parade Electrorig and Counterfeit Copies--Ionia / P & Z: this is the one strat I haven't seen anything of yet, and I think it has a lot of potential. Unfortunately, I don't think Awakener is going to be its break-out hit--getting more 3 mana 2/2s just isn't too impressive, and if you do make it to late game even dropping a 3 mana 6/6s isn't jaw dropping unless you have cards to spend all that extra mana on.
Based on that quick analysis, I'd suspect a Ionia / Frejlord deck that tries to blend #1, #2, and #3--unfortunately, I think that starts to look more like a Karma control deck with Awakeners squeezed in than an Awakener deck that happens to include Karma. Two HP is just so low! This guy could really stand to gain the +1 HP that Kinkou Lifeblade lost: getting him to easily survive an early game block would give him a lot of potential millage.
It recently occurred to me that Ledros is stronger than a lot of Champions, so why not make him a Champion, subject to Champion deckbuilding restrictions?
They could significantly water him down in the pre-leveled version and give him a fairly difficult "quest."
For example:
8 mana 6/4 Fearsome,Play: Cut the enemy Nexus Health in half. Level Up: I've killed 3 units.
Leveled up: +1/+1, loses Play effect, Last Breath: Return me to hand.
This would still make a good Champion, but it's not great for aggro decks, and it's just a lot more fair to play against generally. Most important is that you do not get to keep damaging the Nexus when he starts bouncing. There is some incentive to run multiple copies because he probably doesn't survive to level up on the first try. (But note that he does not have to survive as he kills the units to increment his counter.)
I actually really like that concept, except I would tweak it a little bit. Specifically:
L1: 8 mana 8/6 with Fearsome, no "played" effect. If this unit would die, level up and return to hand instead.
L2: 8 mana 9/6 with Fearsome, Play: cut nexus in half, Last Whisper: return to hand
M0gwai was my inspiration, actually! I started there and adapted to my existing collection as best I could, using sparingly using wildcards where absolutely necessary. His is a lot more 3x and a lot cheaper cards in general, and he loves the potential draw from Trifarian Assessor. My deck has a wider mana curve with more late-game threats: I REALLY liked the added punch that Legion Veteran, Battering Ram, and Kato The Arm provide, and Scarmaiden never feels bad to get on the board.
That YouTube video is 2 weeks old; in it he says he's going to tinker around with it more but I haven't seen this archetype in any of his vids since. Do you know if he's done any improvements?
Also, I'd recommend the one Freljord spell that buffs two allies for 3 health permanently, since you want to keep your guys alive for as long as possible.
I was thinking that too. The appeal of yetis is that Yeti Yearling and Tall Tales getting cheap 5/5s; you really want to synergize on that via more draws and more durability--specifically, combat tricks that help your minions survive. To wit: I'd
I'd also consider replacing the Avalanche with something that provides more repeated value--I'm thinking of Ashe or Rimetusk Shaman--but that's really a tech pick best left tailored against whatever decks you're facing.
I'm not sure how to fit it, but Babbling Bjerg is also an interesting consideration if you cut the Ancient Yetis: it's practically guaranteed to draw you either an Enraged Yeti or a Hearthguard, and curving T4 Bjerg -> T5 Hearthguard always feels amazing.
So I finally gave battle scars a go, and I've been EXTREMELY surprised how successful it is. And my deck list is not even refined... Maybe I've just gotten lucky; maybe the archetype is so alien to everyone that their misplaying. Regardless, I thought I'd share.
Affectionate Poro is...not a very good card. I don't think you want any. And Rearguard doesn't really synergize with your game play, either. Honestly, I think Yasuo/stun is one of those archetypes were you just don't try to include a 1-drop and bank your early mana for bigger plays later on: see CzechCloud's deck for an example. If you do want to do a faster version and need fuel for your Conspirator, try things that will at least give you some value like Navori Bladescout or Navori Highwayman.
Merchant was playing around with a Warmother's Calling deck, and he was big on running 2 copies: it feels bad when you draw them both, but it feels even worse when you never draw the 1.
I'd also like to see some Avalanches--great for staving off aggro elusives and spiders.
Consider changing from Elixir of Iron to either Take Heart or Entreat--the former synergies with Braum and Fiora a little better, the latter helps you draw into them.
Thematically, I'd prefer it if the living shadow DIDN'T count as a summon effect and DIDN'T fizzle existing spells. The attacking unit should be transforming into an animated shadow golem the instant Shadowshift resolves, subject to all the physical and magical attacks that were previously aimed at it.
It's like in Naruto when they throw a dagger at someone, but then *poof* they're a log and the dagger impales into the log, right?
I would dump 1 Dawn and Dust for a 3rd Sentry: your early curve is looking a little rough, and triple of your game-ending bomb is a pretty aggressive considering you have so many stall tools.
Also consider trading your Seers and/or 1 Deny for Rimefang Wolf--I know he doesn't synergize as well with your "buff and copy" game plan, but you have so many frostbites that Wolf has the potential to pop off or at worst 3 mana for a 3-attack challenger can still be pretty clutch.
He said that cards will rotate out eventually--i.e., that it won't be eternal. He didn't commit to any timeframe. With the notable exception of Yu-Gi-Oh, every competitive collectible card game I can think of that's more than 3 years old--MtG, Hearthstone, Pokemon, Netrunner, even HeroClix if you want to count that--has adopted some form of rotation that takes older cards out of the main format to make space for new sets. This is more a tacit acknowledgement of the inevitable than a statement of caveat emptor.
Thanks for monitoring for / posting all these off-channel tidbits, Flux! I love hearing about them.
I think you misunderstand me. I'm not advocating we directly change anything about Emerald Awakener or Feral Mystic, I'm advocating that we create another card that gives it some combo potential. It becomes more like an exodia package: if you happen to draw all the right cards and land them on the board while still defending your nexus, you basically win the game when you hit enlightened. Meanwhile your opponent knows this is coming so they ratchet up the pressure, and you both have to make decisions about how much to sacrifice. E.g., do you play an Awakener early just to use as a chump block? Do put this yet-to-be-named card on the field and risk letting it get targeted? I do admit, though: you wouldn't want to just put this card in Frejlord or SI because as you point out those regions have no problem fielding a deck that lasts until Round 10. I was thinking more like Demacia to pull the existing control archetypes out of their comfortable region combinations.
Sort of like Parade Electrorig and the Elnuks package: they're OK cards by themselves that you probably would cut from most deck lists, but they multiple each others' power so you get a really nice synergy if you play them together. It's not an meta-breaking combo, but its interesting and different and at least good enough to be novel.
Nothing has been officially announced to the public, but some people have theories.
FYI, you might be better off trying to get every region to 8 (the first free champion) rather than trying to go all the way to 20. The reward-to-XP ratio is much better that way.
Ironically: here's a new "spooky Karma" deck from Swimstream that runs 3x awakeners that he thinks will Tier 1 now.
https://lor.mobalytics.gg/decks/bp6ut2hj7f7hvrhkhvh0
Glad to hear it.
Swimstream kept saying in his channel that he was "100% sure they couldn't POSSIBLY let you carry wildcards over", and that just made zero sense to me. Maybe because he thought Riot had some type of design philosophy against letting players' deck collections grow too suddenly? Except realistically, they're already letting you buy 3 champion wildcards a week plus 3 expedition tokens plus giving free champions out fairly generously with the region rewards and (if you're lucky) vaults so I couldn't figure how preventing players from using existing wildcards would make an inch of difference in the grand scheme of things.
You seem to have the worst luck, Toad. :-( Sorry about your expedition; hopefully Support can help you.
In the closed beta, Cloud Drinker had an enlightened ability to decrease by 2 instead of 1, and it was insane when combo'd with Karma. Granted you still had to make it to 10 mana, but once you did it was basically GG.
Maybe the trick here is to do something similar: i.e., find a unassuming follower and give it something like Enlightened: whenever you summon a follower, add a copy to your hand. Or cast again this turn / "echo" if that's too much. Basically: HS's Glinda Crowskin, but it doesn't work with champions. A late game 6/6 LS for 3 mana is unimpressive; but three 6/6 LS for 9 mana is another story--you heal to full if they all connect. Same story with Feral Mystic and five 6/6 overwhelms for 10 mana.
I see; sorry for assuming.
I've been playing Frejlord/Noxus Battle Scars and even with my oddball decklist I am DESTROYING the solo Ezreal decks. Words cannot describe how deeply gratifying it is to attack into them with a wide board that includes Legion Veteran and Vladimir: they immediately frost bite the biggest guys and setup value blocks, then they must use the blue eye to see they still die so they setup desperation blocks, then they exhaust their mana trying every trick they can and slowly realize there just is no getting around the damage from Crimson Pact or the way it is giving everyone additional attack...
Admittedly, I'm seeing that version a lot more than the Heimer variant lately and the few times I have seen Heimer I've struggled. I've also been seeing an interesting Noxus/P&Z champion-less decklist that is 100% aggro; I struggle to keep up with that and imagine its even worse for the decks you mention as they tend to skimp on early game board presence.
Yeah, I'm with 40 here--especially if you're still running this Lucian / Darius midrange deck from your profile. Decks of that speed are EXPECTED to lose to Frejlord control decks, man: you're just slow enough that you can't burst them before they get Ezreal/Heimer online, and too little value to win the long game. Your opponents probably couldn't ask for a better matchup outside of Fiora decks.
If you really want to burst them, I think you're looking at SI/Noxus spiders, SI/P&Z mistwraiths, or Noxus/P&Z discard. If you want to out-value them, I think its either Heimer/Karma, Heimer/Lux, or maybe SI/Demacia dawnspiders. Or you can try to invent something new--and I think that's the real issue right now. There are still so many archetypes waiting to be refined, and most players latch on to whatever they see stream and/or read off Mobalytics (full disclosure: I referenced their site just now to craft this response). As clutch as frostbite can be, its still just a 1-turn stall and its costed fairly expensive. There HAS to be decks that can easily out-swarm it, and there HAS to be decks that out-weather it. The fact that answers don't readily come to mind just shows how far we have to yet to grow as a community.
Good luck!
It's definitely an underwhelming card at first glance.
A few prospects:
Based on that quick analysis, I'd suspect a Ionia / Frejlord deck that tries to blend #1, #2, and #3--unfortunately, I think that starts to look more like a Karma control deck with Awakeners squeezed in than an Awakener deck that happens to include Karma. Two HP is just so low! This guy could really stand to gain the +1 HP that Kinkou Lifeblade lost: getting him to easily survive an early game block would give him a lot of potential millage.
I actually really like that concept, except I would tweak it a little bit. Specifically:
L1: 8 mana 8/6 with Fearsome, no "played" effect. If this unit would die, level up and return to hand instead.
L2: 8 mana 9/6 with Fearsome, Play: cut nexus in half, Last Whisper: return to hand
That way, he plays a bit like a cross between Tryndamere and Katarina.
M0gwai was my inspiration, actually! I started there and adapted to my existing collection as best I could, using sparingly using wildcards where absolutely necessary. His is a lot more 3x and a lot cheaper cards in general, and he loves the potential draw from Trifarian Assessor. My deck has a wider mana curve with more late-game threats: I REALLY liked the added punch that Legion Veteran, Battering Ram, and Kato The Arm provide, and Scarmaiden never feels bad to get on the board.
That YouTube video is 2 weeks old; in it he says he's going to tinker around with it more but I haven't seen this archetype in any of his vids since. Do you know if he's done any improvements?
I was thinking that too. The appeal of yetis is that Yeti Yearling and Tall Tales getting cheap 5/5s; you really want to synergize on that via more draws and more durability--specifically, combat tricks that help your minions survive. To wit: I'd
I'd also consider replacing the Avalanche with something that provides more repeated value--I'm thinking of Ashe or Rimetusk Shaman--but that's really a tech pick best left tailored against whatever decks you're facing.
I'm not sure how to fit it, but Babbling Bjerg is also an interesting consideration if you cut the Ancient Yetis: it's practically guaranteed to draw you either an Enraged Yeti or a Hearthguard, and curving T4 Bjerg -> T5 Hearthguard always feels amazing.
So I finally gave battle scars a go, and I've been EXTREMELY surprised how successful it is. And my deck list is not even refined... Maybe I've just gotten lucky; maybe the archetype is so alien to everyone that their misplaying. Regardless, I thought I'd share.
How's everyone else doing post-patch? Any off-meta decks you've been pleasantly surprised by?
Affectionate Poro is...not a very good card. I don't think you want any. And Rearguard doesn't really synergize with your game play, either. Honestly, I think Yasuo/stun is one of those archetypes were you just don't try to include a 1-drop and bank your early mana for bigger plays later on: see CzechCloud's deck for an example. If you do want to do a faster version and need fuel for your Conspirator, try things that will at least give you some value like Navori Bladescout or Navori Highwayman.
Merchant was playing around with a Warmother's Calling deck, and he was big on running 2 copies: it feels bad when you draw them both, but it feels even worse when you never draw the 1.
I'd also like to see some Avalanches--great for staving off aggro elusives and spiders.
That's...a LOT of challengers.
Consider changing from Elixir of Iron to either Take Heart or Entreat--the former synergies with Braum and Fiora a little better, the latter helps you draw into them.
Thematically, I'd prefer it if the living shadow DIDN'T count as a summon effect and DIDN'T fizzle existing spells. The attacking unit should be transforming into an animated shadow golem the instant Shadowshift resolves, subject to all the physical and magical attacks that were previously aimed at it.
It's like in Naruto when they throw a dagger at someone, but then *poof* they're a log and the dagger impales into the log, right?
I would dump 1 Dawn and Dust for a 3rd Sentry: your early curve is looking a little rough, and triple of your game-ending bomb is a pretty aggressive considering you have so many stall tools.
Also consider trading your Seers and/or 1 Deny for Rimefang Wolf--I know he doesn't synergize as well with your "buff and copy" game plan, but you have so many frostbites that Wolf has the potential to pop off or at worst 3 mana for a 3-attack challenger can still be pretty clutch.