Conversation w/ Dean Ayala (Iksar)

Apologies if this was already posted somewhere, but I thought people might find the latest episode of Omni/Stone interesting as Dean Ayala was a guest:

I didn't take detailed notes or anything, but here are some points that stood out:

• Convo starts at 3:50
   
• Before Dean, Mike Donais was the only designer doing play testing on the team
  
  
• We know that they work on sets well in advanced, but Dean gave some numbers.  Saviors of Uldum will be his 16th set but he implied he's currently working on the next 4 as well.
  
  
• A lot of stuff on Team 5's design philosophy - concern with player experience at the beginning and end of games, concern with games feeling the same even with different cards, and wanting to enable decks that gently introduce you to the more complicated mechanics of the game (e.g. going from Murloc Shaman, to a C'thun deck, to Nomi Priest). 
  
  
• They didn't land on Death Knights until 9 weeks into Final Design! (18:45)
  
  
• Specific card discussions start around 31:40
   
• We may not be getting a way to discard duplicates from our singleton decks.  This was only hinted at indirectly in the discussion about Bomb Warrior interactions in play testing, but I came away thinking that there won't be an initial counter to bombs.  (convo happens soon after the 1 hour mark) 
  
  
• A lot of inside details on previous iterations of cards and how they balance the wow factor vs. pragmatic impact.  For example, Brann at one point summoned two 5/5 beasts with rush due to fear about the Krush burst, but it was more exciting to summon Krush (naturally).  And Reno had a set of special mage cards he was going to fire from his wand but they wanted something "more consistent" than something "flashy/memey".
  
  
• I think we knew this already, but he confirmed that the team reads Reddit comments so posting suggestions there isn't just shouting into the void!  (it's probably just shouting into a void)

Cool, thanks for the link, I've never seen this before.

It's a very good conversation. Definitely everyone listen to it.  Dean had a habit of taking a question and quickly going into a long tangent about a developer topic that.. might've been probably isn't related to the question but was very interesting, and the Omnistone folks quickly realized it's best just to let him go on and just throw a new question just to get him going again.

A bit of note that he liked how death knights were very socially polarizing: as in some people REALLY liked it and some REALLY didn't like it.  He also considers defile one of his favorites, as it's a card that's easy to understand but allows for complex situations.

Regarding the bomb vs singleton discussion, he did bring up a good point.  He said that if the Singleton cards came first and we had decks already out for it, then they added in bomb warrior, people would consider it a very interesting counter that they would want to see happen.  The issue is that it's the reverse: we got the counter before we got the cards to be countered, and it's the new fancy cards we want to try that's being countered by the already-used.  

I will note though that he used the Blizzard-speak of 'we're looking into it'.  Note that I can't remember a time that they said that and it DIDN'T result in a nerf.  The overall impression I had with the conversation is that they KNOW it's countering, workarounds would be too clunky or really screw up rules and expectations so they'd rather not go there, but they are hoping that the situation doesn't occur too often (i.e. not everyone playing bomb warrior, and in many games the 2nd bomb doesn't show up early and the League cards are early-midgame).  If it does, they'll step in, and their current track record is that it'll be a fast solution.

So I'm cool with it.  They know it could be an issue. They already looked into it.  They understand their stance and know they could be wrong. They are ready to fix it if they are wrong.  

Just imagine if every gaming company had THAT last line of sentences as a main philosophy.  

Also yes, so happy now that it's Krush.  Also Omni's discussion made me realize Reno might also work out as well if you consider it a Tempo advanaged board clear rather than a game ender.  The question just comes to whether we can make a good deck out of singletons.  I'm guessing mage can if they can sort a good win condition from it.  I know hunter can AND has ways to draw bombs from its deck.  

Quote From Dakarian

Regarding the bomb vs singleton discussion, he did bring up a good point.  He said that if the Singleton cards came first and we had decks already out for it, then they added in bomb warrior, people would consider it a very interesting counter that they would want to see happen.  The issue is that it's the reverse: we got the counter before we got the cards to be countered, and it's the new fancy cards we want to try that's being countered by the already-used.  

I will note though that he used the Blizzard-speak of 'we're looking into it'.  Note that I can't remember a time that they said that and it DIDN'T result in a nerf.  The overall impression I had with the conversation is that they KNOW it's countering, workarounds would be too clunky or really screw up rules and expectations so they'd rather not go there, but they are hoping that the situation doesn't occur too often (i.e. not everyone playing bomb warrior, and in many games the 2nd bomb doesn't show up early and the League cards are early-midgame).  If it does, they'll step in, and their current track record is that it'll be a fast solution.

So I'm cool with it.  They know it could be an issue. They already looked into it.  They understand their stance and know they could be wrong. They are ready to fix it if they are wrong.  

 

I haven't listened yet, I plan to, but my initial thoughts are that it's an interesting situation, and I can understand the stance..... and I really really hope that they've considered that if there are a lot of bomb decks played (seems that there are) then it will make shiny new legendaries (and signature ones at that) feel really really underwhelming and taint the feeling of players for some time.

If the fix winds up having to be a new card printed to remove duplicates:

1) it either has to be a SN1P-SN4P situation (they've done it once ever if I'm not mistaken) or wait months until the next set (impact: the signature legendaries of this set feel horrible until another set, not ideal); and,

2) It will have a pretty massive impact on the opportunity cost to gain the benefit.... Can I see it being run in a (for example) Nomi deck, or Togwaggle style deck to race to your empty deck faster? Can I see it making the average card in the highlander decks much much stronger? Yes to both of the above. Reducing your deck to 15 one-ofs compared to 30 one-ofs makes a deck much shorter, but far higher average quality and then there are various refill options too. Not to mention that you can just include the Reno-esque card and the singleton enabler in any old deck for the option to 'break glass in emergency' if you want the effect, and play a fully effective, normal deck if not.

Quote From Ganashal

Quote From Dakarian

Regarding the bomb vs singleton discussion, he did bring up a good point.  He said that if the Singleton cards came first and we had decks already out for it, then they added in bomb warrior, people would consider it a very interesting counter that they would want to see happen.  The issue is that it's the reverse: we got the counter before we got the cards to be countered, and it's the new fancy cards we want to try that's being countered by the already-used.  

I will note though that he used the Blizzard-speak of 'we're looking into it'.  Note that I can't remember a time that they said that and it DIDN'T result in a nerf.  The overall impression I had with the conversation is that they KNOW it's countering, workarounds would be too clunky or really screw up rules and expectations so they'd rather not go there, but they are hoping that the situation doesn't occur too often (i.e. not everyone playing bomb warrior, and in many games the 2nd bomb doesn't show up early and the League cards are early-midgame).  If it does, they'll step in, and their current track record is that it'll be a fast solution.

So I'm cool with it.  They know it could be an issue. They already looked into it.  They understand their stance and know they could be wrong. They are ready to fix it if they are wrong.  

 

I haven't listened yet, I plan to, but my initial thoughts are that it's an interesting situation, and I can understand the stance..... and I really really hope that they've considered that if there are a lot of bomb decks played (seems that there are) then it will make shiny new legendaries (and signature ones at that) feel really really underwhelming and taint the feeling of players for some time.

If the fix winds up having to be a new card printed to remove duplicates:

1) it either has to be a SN1P-SN4P situation (they've done it once ever if I'm not mistaken) or wait months until the next set (impact: the signature legendaries of this set feel horrible until another set, not ideal); and,

2) It will have a pretty massive impact on the opportunity cost to gain the benefit.... Can I see it being run in a (for example) Nomi deck, or Togwaggle style deck to race to your empty deck faster? Can I see it making the average card in the highlander decks much much stronger? Yes to both of the above. Reducing your deck to 15 one-ofs compared to 30 one-ofs makes a deck much shorter, but far higher average quality and then there are various refill options too. Not to mention that you can just include the Reno-esque card and the singleton enabler in any old deck for the option to 'break glass in emergency' if you want the effect, and play a fully effective, normal deck if not.

 

I can't see them printing a card that removes duplicates.  For one that's a rather extreme Hate card for a large number of strategies introduced just to make 4 cards work a bit better.  For another, it makes the matchup a lot more RNG based: do I get my 'save me' card in time? no, I lose. yes?  I probably win.  That's the design mentality that made the original Reno which they worked to avoid in the current version.  In the end adding hate tech really doesn't fix this type of problem.  Tech is better suited for anti-archetype (that is 'anti-aggro, anti-control') or for tweaking a slightly bad but winnable situation to your favor.  

I'm guessing if they have to step in, they'll either nerf bomb warrior so that people use it less or change a rule to make singleton decks work with bombs in it.  I can imagine it going "if your deck started with no duplicates..." or the like.  Which is still a bit meh of an option.

Quote From Dakarian

 

I can't see them printing a card that removes duplicates.  For one that's a rather extreme Hate card for a large number of strategies introduced just to make 4 cards work a bit better.  For another, it makes the matchup a lot more RNG based: do I get my 'save me' card in time? no, I lose. yes?  I probably win.  That's the design mentality that made the original Reno which they worked to avoid in the current version.  In the end adding hate tech really doesn't fix this type of problem.  Tech is better suited for anti-archetype (that is 'anti-aggro, anti-control') or for tweaking a slightly bad but winnable situation to your favor.  

I'm guessing if they have to step in, they'll either nerf bomb warrior so that people use it less or change a rule to make singleton decks work with bombs in it.  I can imagine it going "if your deck started with no duplicates..." or the like.  Which is still a bit meh of an option.

 

Good points.

The "started with" solution would also remove the ability of players to play, say, 2 Moonfire or Naturalise and wait to draw them before playing Elise for the mooted Wild OTK combo, or other similar concepts which would also have unintended consequences. 

And extreme hate cards, I can think of no better example than Skulking Geist. A card which I hated the concept of to the degree that I thought that the reveal of it was a hoax. So they're not by any stretch against printing extreme cards specifically to destroy a single archetype (in that case Jade Druid of course), and I agree 100% that they are very inelegant solutions.

Well, you can say that Skulking Geist is a jade hate card and I can understand that but it also save people from Inner Fire bullshit, which is really frustrating to see from beta to 5th year.

As soon as it has gone to wild, Inner Fire decks appeared again.

I don't think Skulking Geist was only about Jade Druid. All Malygos decks are using 1-cost spells, Power Overwhelming was also a problematic card as a 1-cost card but it moved to HoF before Skulking Geist but it will be a solution to Power Overwhelming too like Conceal, Ice Lance or any other which i can't remember right now.

it also deletes Shield Slam, all of Paladin Secrets, Evolve, Deadly Poison and Naturalize and other impactful cards which I can't remember right now. If it would stay in standard, it would also help against Crystology, Grim Rally, Magic Trick, Ray of Frost, and Togwaggle's Scheme.

Like how mana cheating is a problematic mechanic for Hearthstone, Low costed - High Valued cards are also problematic too.

It can be said that almost all 1-cost minions can be problematic one day. Best example is Fire Fly. In the Year of the Mammoth, almost all decks have it. There are other problematic examples too,

Undertaker, Mana Wyrm etc.


Anyway, the subject here is Skulking Geist, I agree that it was created to counter Jade Idol but it was not a hate card. It is a simple tech card. Unlike you, I liked Skulking Geist's concept, I like its combo disruption + game plan disruption ability also a removal remover. I don't think that it ended as an Idol-Hate card.

Quote From Almaniarra

Well, you can say that Skulking Geist is a jade hate card and I can understand that but it also save people from Inner Fire bullshit, which is really frustrating to see from beta to 5th year.

As soon as it has gone to wild, Inner Fire decks appeared again.

I don't think Skulking Geist was only about Jade Druid. All Malygos decks are using 1-cost spells, Power Overwhelming was also a problematic card as a 1-cost card but it moved to HoF before Skulking Geist but it will be a solution to Power Overwhelming too like Conceal, Ice Lance or any other which i can't remember right now.

it also deletes Shield Slam, all of Paladin Secrets, Evolve, Deadly Poison and Naturalize and other impactful cards which I can't remember right now. If it would stay in standard, it would also help against Crystology, Grim Rally, Magic Trick, Ray of Frost, and Togwaggle's Scheme.

Like how mana cheating is a problematic mechanic for Hearthstone, Low costed - High Valued cards are also problematic too.

It can be said that almost all 1-cost minions can be problematic one day. Best example is Fire Fly. In the Year of the Mammoth, almost all decks have it. There are other problematic examples too,

Undertaker, Mana Wyrm etc.


Anyway, the subject here is Skulking Geist, I agree that it was created to counter Jade Idol but it was not a hate card. It is a simple tech card. Unlike you, I liked Skulking Geist's concept, I like its combo disruption + game plan disruption ability also a removal remover. I don't think that it ended as an Idol-Hate card.

Note that 'hate cards' isn't an official term. It's simply meaning a tech card designed specifically to destroy a particular deck or strategy rather than simply making the matchup easier.

A perfect example is the comparison of Brawl with Reno for tech against aggro decks.  Brawl is a great anti-aggro tool and it helps your matchup against them, but it doesn't completely destroy the opponent as is.  It HELPS you win, and if they screw up or if other areas of the game force them into a bad situation, can spell a win, but it itself doesn't win it alone.  Reno, though, led to a lot of 50/50 matches (as you literally have a 50% chance of having it in your hand by turn 6 if you mulligan for it) where you flat out lose the game if he drops.  If you played burn or fast aggro your only hope was that the card wouldn't show up.  

Reno would be an anti-aggro Hate card, by many definitions.  I can see people arguing against it, of course, but I hope it gives the idea.  

In that same vein, I believe Geist was meant to be a Hate card for Idol that failed to do that and instead changed a LOT of other matchups (which I think was also expected by Blizzard).  Whether that was a good card or not... I guess I lean on "it was a fine card, but lets not try it again so casually".  I feel the same for the power level of death knights btw.

Quote From Dakarian

Quote From Almaniarra

Well, you can say that Skulking Geist is a jade hate card and I can understand that but it also save people from Inner Fire bullshit, which is really frustrating to see from beta to 5th year.

As soon as it has gone to wild, Inner Fire decks appeared again.

I don't think Skulking Geist was only about Jade Druid. All Malygos decks are using 1-cost spells, Power Overwhelming was also a problematic card as a 1-cost card but it moved to HoF before Skulking Geist but it will be a solution to Power Overwhelming too like Conceal, Ice Lance or any other which i can't remember right now.

it also deletes Shield Slam, all of Paladin Secrets, Evolve, Deadly Poison and Naturalize and other impactful cards which I can't remember right now. If it would stay in standard, it would also help against Crystology, Grim Rally, Magic Trick, Ray of Frost, and Togwaggle's Scheme.

Like how mana cheating is a problematic mechanic for Hearthstone, Low costed - High Valued cards are also problematic too.

It can be said that almost all 1-cost minions can be problematic one day. Best example is Fire Fly. In the Year of the Mammoth, almost all decks have it. There are other problematic examples too,

Undertaker, Mana Wyrm etc.


Anyway, the subject here is Skulking Geist, I agree that it was created to counter Jade Idol but it was not a hate card. It is a simple tech card. Unlike you, I liked Skulking Geist's concept, I like its combo disruption + game plan disruption ability also a removal remover. I don't think that it ended as an Idol-Hate card.

Note that 'hate cards' isn't an official term. It's simply meaning a tech card designed specifically to destroy a particular deck or strategy rather than simply making the matchup easier.

A perfect example is the comparison of Brawl with Reno for tech against aggro decks.  Brawl is a great anti-aggro tool and it helps your matchup against them, but it doesn't completely destroy the opponent as is.  It HELPS you win, and if they screw up or if other areas of the game force them into a bad situation, can spell a win, but it itself doesn't win it alone.  Reno, though, led to a lot of 50/50 matches (as you literally have a 50% chance of having it in your hand by turn 6 if you mulligan for it) where you flat out lose the game if he drops.  If you played burn or fast aggro your only hope was that the card wouldn't show up.  

Reno would be an anti-aggro Hate card, by many definitions.  I can see people arguing against it, of course, but I hope it gives the idea.  

 

In that same vein, I believe Geist was meant to be a Hate card for Idol that failed to do that and instead changed a LOT of other matchups (which I think was also expected by Blizzard).  Whether that was a good card or not... I guess I lean on "it was a fine card, but lets not try it again so casually".  I feel the same for the power level of death knights btw.

 

I guess KotFT was a unique expansion with huge power level because of the unbalanced game. There was almost only Jade Druids and Pirate Warriors in Ladder and it seemed like it can't be change. So it is like a "must to do" i guess. Or I'm wrong again i really don't know but I want to believe in this.

Quote From Almaniarra

 

 

I guess KotFT was a unique expansion with huge power level because of the unbalanced game. There was almost only Jade Druids and Pirate Warriors in Ladder and it seemed like it can't be change. So it is like a "must to do" i guess. Or I'm wrong again i really don't know but I want to believe in this.

 

Well, it was more of the theme that did it.  That expansion wasn't just some random hearthstone made event.  

This is the Frozen Throne.  Lich King.  Death Knight!   The topic is literally the most important event in all that is Warcraft Lore.  

People have been clamoring for this set since Hearthstone was first made.  It's going to go *BIG*.  Note that they work on sets about 2-4 sets in advance.  Thus KotFT started development somewhere between Old Gods and One Night: BEFORE the game filled up with Jades and Pirates.  

Quote From Dakarian

Quote From Almaniarra

 

 

I guess KotFT was a unique expansion with huge power level because of the unbalanced game. There was almost only Jade Druids and Pirate Warriors in Ladder and it seemed like it can't be change. So it is like a "must to do" i guess. Or I'm wrong again i really don't know but I want to believe in this.

 

Well, it was more of the theme that did it.  That expansion wasn't just some random hearthstone made event.  

This is the Frozen Throne.  Lich King.  Death Knight!   The topic is literally the most important event in all that is Warcraft Lore.  

People have been clamoring for this set since Hearthstone was first made.  It's going to go *BIG*.  Note that they work on sets about 2-4 sets in advance.  Thus KotFT started development somewhere between Old Gods and One Night: BEFORE the game filled up with Jades and Pirates.  

 

Well, True that but let's feel sad about Illidan Stormrage then. One of the most popular and coolest character of Warcraft. He also needs to be *BIG*. Even better than Ragnaros the Firelord or Sylvanas Windrunner but god knows why Dr. Boom is better than Illidan Stormrage.

Quote From Almaniarra

Quote From Dakarian

Quote From Almaniarra

 

 

I guess KotFT was a unique expansion with huge power level because of the unbalanced game. There was almost only Jade Druids and Pirate Warriors in Ladder and it seemed like it can't be change. So it is like a "must to do" i guess. Or I'm wrong again i really don't know but I want to believe in this.

 

Well, it was more of the theme that did it.  That expansion wasn't just some random hearthstone made event.  

This is the Frozen Throne.  Lich King.  Death Knight!   The topic is literally the most important event in all that is Warcraft Lore.  

People have been clamoring for this set since Hearthstone was first made.  It's going to go *BIG*.  Note that they work on sets about 2-4 sets in advance.  Thus KotFT started development somewhere between Old Gods and One Night: BEFORE the game filled up with Jades and Pirates.  

 

Well, True that but let's feel sad about Illidan Stormrage then. One of the most popular and coolest character of Warcraft. He also needs to be *BIG*. Even better than Ragnaros the Firelord or Sylvanas Windrunner but god knows why Dr. Boom is better than Illidan Stormrage.

Illidan used to be VERY powerful

Battlecry: Both players discard 3 cards and draw 3 cards. [7 mana, 7 attack, 7 health, Legendary][

Same stats as boom, but VERY disruptive to combo decks with the right timing.  Best guess I have to the reason for the change was due to an earlier philosophy of not wanting cards that 'ruin' other people's fun.  The new card is less powerful because..well.. have you SEEN most legendaries back then?  Blizzard wasn't that great in high mana legendary cards back then.  He's kept as is now because of a new philosophy of not wanting Classic to be the Go To set for most deck design.  if we see him in an expansion, he'll probably get a MUCH better design.

Dr. Boom being better was a surprise to everyone.  We all mocked him when he was revealed, and I'm betting he was meant to be a meme.  However, he was literally the only 7 drop that wasn't absolute garbage ONLY because he actually DID something to the board.  Part of why Dr. Boom shows up so often now is because of how absolutely silly that an uncared for thing in WoW turned into such a big name in here.  And it shows in his designs as someone who gets no respect and, by all impressions, should be worthless but actually ends up being the most effective.

(seriously, the entire POINT to Shadows, and the main conflict of Uldun starts with us literally stealing an entire city by strapping rockets on it)

So basically, (TL:DR SUMMARY)

Illidan was good but didn't fit the old card design, so he got remade.

He was remade bad because we used to suck at card design. 

He's going to remain bad because new set design won't let him be good again.

That Dr. Boom isn't worthless while he is shows just HOW bad we sucked at card design in 2014-15. 

And Illidan seriously needs to be a prominent figure in a set sometime.

Quote From Dakarian

Quote From Almaniarra

Quote From Dakarian

Quote From Almaniarra

 

 

 

 

 

Illidan used to be VERY powerful

Battlecry: Both players discard 3 cards and draw 3 cards. [7 mana, 7 attack, 7 health, Legendary][

Same stats as boom, but VERY disruptive to combo decks with the right timing.  Best guess I have to the reason for the change was due to an earlier philosophy of not wanting cards that 'ruin' other people's fun.  The new card is less powerful because..well.. have you SEEN most legendaries back then?  Blizzard wasn't that great in high mana legendary cards back then.  He's kept as is now because of a new philosophy of not wanting Classic to be the Go To set for most deck design.  if we see him in an expansion, he'll probably get a MUCH better design.

Dr. Boom being better was a surprise to everyone.  We all mocked him when he was revealed, and I'm betting he was meant to be a meme.  However, he was literally the only 7 drop that wasn't absolute garbage ONLY because he actually DID something to the board.  Part of why Dr. Boom shows up so often now is because of how absolutely silly that an uncared for thing in WoW turned into such a big name in here.  And it shows in his designs as someone who gets no respect and, by all impressions, should be worthless but actually ends up being the most effective.

(seriously, the entire POINT to Shadows, and the main conflict of Uldun starts with us literally stealing an entire city by strapping rockets on it)

 

 

So basically, (TL:DR SUMMARY)

Illidan was good but didn't fit the old card design, so he got remade.

He was remade bad because we used to suck at card design. 

He's going to remain bad because new set design won't let him be good again.

That Dr. Boom isn't worthless while he is shows just HOW bad we sucked at card design in 2014-15. 

 

And Illidan seriously needs to be a prominent figure in a set sometime.

Well, I was in the game before Illidan nerf, I know all of those information with Boom informations but thanks for them, Newer players can learn it from here.

And i agree with all of the consequences which you achieve on TL;DR, especially with Illidan's re-appearance.