As part of the recent reddit AMA, Alec Dawson took the time to comment on the idea of class identity in Hearthstone. The team has learned a lot since their last blog about class identity 10 months ago, and they also have to factor in their brand new class into the equation.
Pushing class strengths was listed as one of the ways to really enforce the identities, as it more clearly delineates the classes. Overgrowth from Ashes of Outland was given as an example of this.
They're also keenly aware that card draw is an important part of the game; some classes can have weaker card draw, but no class should have no card draw.
We're about 10 months since the class identity blog you posted last year. Will Team 5 be revisiting and/or amending any of the class strengths, limitations or weaknesses? And will DH's class strengths, limitations or weaknesses be included, as well?
Finally, with respect to class limitations and weaknesses, I think a trend is starting to reveal itself for those classes with "card draw" as a weakness/limitation: those classes have not got enough "strength" to overcome such a crippling weakness/limitation. Are there plans to push certain class strengths' harder? Or, better yet, loosening the limitations/weakness imposed on certain classes?
Quote From Alec Hey there, this is a great question!
When it comes to class identity, it's something we are still seeing through and want to be noticeable for the Year of the Phoenix and all future years. So yes, we will be amending and revisiting those class strengths, limitations, and weaknesses as development continues. DH will also be included in that process.
More to the second part of your question though, while developing and honing in on these more specific class identities, we've learned quite a bit. Hearthstone games definitely play out different when you know which classes have the large removal vs. which don't, or know which classes can kill you from hand and against which classes you feel a bit safer at say 8 health. That's important for the game and creates a more varied experience.
We've also learned that pushing some of those strengths really does help establish the identity further. I think Druid is a solid example of this in Ashes of Outland and that was part of the intention when development started on the expansion. When you have cards like Overgrowth, it goes a long way to reinforcing the mana generation of Druid. We will be leaning more into themes like these for specific classes in order to showcase their strengths.
Finally, we do realize that some of the outlined weaknesses can be a bit too limiting in a card game like Hearthstone. Card draw, for example, is a natural part of our game. The class identities should detail and remind which classes draw a ton of cards vs. which classes draw fewer cards, not which classes draw a ton of cards vs. which classes draw no cards at all. This is something we are actively discussing when it comes to class design and how classes will be shaped in the future.
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Comments
This well encompasses my frustrations with Shaman at the moment. There are powerful combos available - single and board evolve effects, Galakrond, battlecries and the quest, 2.5 powerful board clears, Murloc refill, totem synergies, Vessina, Doomhammer and Rockbiter Weapon, but a lack of card draw or generation disallows reliably powerful decks. Most of the games I play with Shaman are lost because I run out of cards.
It's frustrating, because there are plenty of powerful synergies available. Underbelly Angler and a 1-cost Murloc on a later turn can be magnificent. Desert Hare into Boggspine Knuckles is shocker. The Fist of Ra-den into Earthquake is a solid krunkin'. An evolve effect on Mogu Fleshshaper can be a spawn-killer. There are four spells that can deal direct face damage. With Corrupt the Waters complete, a single EVIL Cable Rat can spawn board clears, evolves, face damage, taunts, or legendary dragons. And as always, the ideal Doomhammer can deal 16 damage in a turn and a solid Bloodlust can pump out even more.
None of those come to fruition, though. Tempo Demon Hunter, Face Hunter, Galakrond Warlock, and Quest Hunter can out-draw you, Spell Druid has more consistently powerful swing turns (made possible by draw), and Galakrond Rogue, Mages, and Resurrect Priest out-value you. To be on a level playing field with those decks, Thrall needs to take a page from these classes, either with card draw - the extant Far Sight and Mana Tide Totem are both awkward, usually replacement draws -; more card generation - Sludge Slurper, EVIL Totem, Underbelly Angler, Marshspawn, and Swampqueen Hagatha are the only generative cards available -; or more effects on a stick - all of Shaman's powerful clears hit the whole board, which, barring having the The Fist of Ra-den, makes it difficult to take back tempo in a single turn; Mage and Warlock, for instance, have no problem clearing or freezing a board while advancing a gameplan.
You're perpetually roleplaying as a boxer who has less stamina and has to win the match before too many rounds pass. You've got a few great punches, but for some reason, they don't always show up when they should?
Anyway, rant over. Such are the thoughts of any player trying to deckbuild with a weaker class. If you're entering in any card design competitions, for the elements' sake, create a generative Elemental, a powerful draw effect, a clear-on-a-stick, or something similar; Shaman players will vote for you, if only from desperation.
Priest is already pretty good at generating Cards, but some reliable Draw would be great.
When they talked about Class Identity, they said that they want Priests to be the ones with powerfull but situational Cards. So when it comes to drawing maybe they could bind it to a Condition? Like Cleric of Scales.
I love that they rotated Acolyte of Pain and then realize that classes that lacked card draw needed it for that reason.
I played against two Demon Hunters yesterday that both drew threw their ENTIRE deck into fatigue when I still had about 15 cards left. One lost to me, and one killed me from very high health across two turns. I think the amount of draw in each class is actually near-fine at the moment EXCEPT for Demon Hunter which is ridiculously over-powered. The more I play against it, the more I think the fundamental design of the class is broken, starting with a 1-cost hero power. I could suggest half a dozen card nerfs, but I'll stake out the hard position that the entire thing needs an overhaul already. I'm genuinely glad Team-5 went for it, and I want them to experiment in the future, but ladder has basically become unbearable to me, and I've been having fun despite oppressive metas since Undertaker gained +1/+1.
Lack of card draw in some classes is a problem, yet Acolyte of Pain rotated because it was used too often in those classes with poor card draw.
So either they replace it with another auto-include draw engine for those classes when the replacements are out, or (I hope) they re-tool some of the classic/basic class cards like the Priest overhaul. There are some useless class cards out there, after all. Warsong Commander comes to mind...
I think acolyte was a problem because it was too efficient in classes with good card draw. It easily comboed in conjunction with other cards, often draw spells, in order to thin through a combo deck very quickly.
That's a good point. Especially if you consider things like Wild Pyromancer along with the new Priest rework with some current 0 or low cost heals as well as the new 0 mana Power Word Shield. Then in Druid they are not really lacking card draw but they gained some "costs 0 mana if you have 7 or more mana" spells. And then Warrior could almost guarantee the three draws using Skipper and they aren't supposed to have great draw if I'm not mistaken.
I'd personally love to see more or all of the original classes get a little rework like Priest just to freshen Standard up a bit.
If they wanted classes to have more access to card draw then why have they Hall of Famed the Neutral cards they have?.. So they can just print newer ones that rotate which brings them back to having to create more all over again?
Instead of many classes using the same card draw, they can print class appropriate card draw tailored to each class without worrying about giving some classes too much card draw.
I really miss card draw in priest. Without inner fire, there's not as much to get out of it. I don't think northshire cleric and power word shield should have both been gutted. I could sacrifice one, but without either, I often have an empty hand as a control deck.
I mean I get that as was the case with Azure Drake, but does warlock really need help drawing cards? Or Demon Hunter ?
An whatever classes they print them for, will need consistent replacements each rotation if it's something they want to stick around
Looking forward to draw in hunter.
Starving Buzzard makes a comeback!
Class identity, design space, game balance... fancy terms for planned obsolescence, bait and switch and selling the same product twice...
FWIW - the internet won't break if you stop pretending to be upset every time you use it . .
I do like that some classes have the ability to refill their hand easily like Rogue while other classes are forced to make do with what they have in their hand like Priest. It allows Blizzard to print cards that are stronger on their own for the classes that don't have much draw since they will need as good options as the classes that can draw a lot. For example, Blizzard is able to print quite powerful aggressive tools for Warrior since all they really have is Battle Rage, but they need to tone the power down for Rogue since they have access to Galakrond, the Nightmare and Heistbaron Togwaggle. However, this weakness got blown out of proportion when it came to DoD and AoO. It has now become a problem of card advantage, where even if your opponent has cards in hand that are stronger than yours, simply having so many more puts you in a substantially better position.
Meanwhile Priest
Loot Hoarder, Novice Engineer. They're pretty efficient as neutrals.
I don't see the point of bothering with more cards, for classes which are not meant to draw a lot.
Oh well, we'll see...
Those cards only replace themselves. They can be used to find specific cards in your deck quicker, which is why you see them a lot in combo decks. But they cannot be used to refill your hand and putting a small body on the board isn't particularly useful for most decks past turn 2.
Yeah sure, but I thought that being unable to refill your hand was exactly the point of having a class weakness in card draw.
I don't think all classes should be allowed to have some form of multiple draw on class cards at any given point in the future
Also because that translates into forever, in Wild, effectively killing class diversity in that mode.
Card replacement while doing something else is already A LOT (ie Diving Gryphon), and I hope we won't go beyond that.