We now have all the details for the nerfs that are coming next week! This is the second balance patch we're getting during Ashes of Outland and the second time Demon Hunters are getting hit with the nerf bat. In addition to the nerfs, here are things of note.
- Only three of these cards will be eligible for dust refunds - none of which are Outland cards.
- An update has added that Golden Altruis the Outcast and Battlefiend will be both be eligible for dust refunds.
- Bad Luck Albatross, Bloodbloom, and Open the Waygate.
- Millhouse is being changed in Battlegrounds to increase the cost of his Tavern Tiers by 1.
- The Lurker Below is now properly tagged as a Beast.
- Zephrys the Great received a bug fix and change (details below).
Quote From Kerfluffle In our recent Reddit AMA, we spoke on a few balance updates we intend to make soon. We’re now ready to share the full details of these updates, which will be included in the 17.0.2 patch planned for early next week.
Balance Updates*
Neutral –
- Old: Cost 6 mana → New: Cost 7 mana.
- Old: Cost 3 mana → New: Cost 4 mana.
- Old: 3 Attack / 3 Health → New: 3 Attack / 2 Health.
Demon Hunter –
- Old: Cost 3 mana, 3 Attack / 2 Health → New: Cost 4 mana. 4 Attack / 2 Health.
- Old: 2 Attack / 2 Health → New: 1 Attack / 2 Health.
- Old: 7 Attack / 4 Health → New: 6 Attack / 4 Health.
Warlock –
- Old: Destroy a Demon. Restore 5 Health to your hero. → New: Destroy a friendly Demon. Restore 5 Health to your hero.
- Old: Cost 2 mana → New: Cost 4 mana.
Paladin –
- Old: Cost 6 mana → New: Cost 5 mana.
Mage –
- Old: Cast 6 spells that didn’t start in your deck. Reward: Time Warp. → New: Cast 8 spells that didn’t start in your deck. Reward: Time Warp.
*The following cards will be eligible for a full dust refund for two weeks after the 17.0.2 patch has been released:
- Golden Altruis the Outcast
- Golden Battlefiend
- Golden/Normal Bad Luck Albatross
- Golden/Normal Frenzied Felwing
- Golden/Normal Open the Waygate
- Golden/Normal Bloodbloom
Battlegrounds
Millhouse Manastorm
- Old: Minions cost 2 Gold. Refresh costs 2 Gold. Start with 3 Gold. → New: Minions cost 2 Gold. Refresh costs 2 Gold. Tavern Tiers cost (1) more. Start with 3 Gold.
Bug Fixes
The Lurker Below is now properly tagged as a Beast.
Fixed a tracking issue that prevented 500 wins with Demon Hunter from being achieved.
Fixed a bug where Zephrys the Great would not offer a lethal option if your hero had a large amount of Attack.
Zephrys the Great has been updated to accommodate the Sacrificial Pact and Glaivebound Adept changes.
![All The Great Dark Beyond Card Reveals for October 12 - Day 2 [Finished]](dark-beyond-reveals-day-2-thumb.webp)
Comments
It wasn't the standard because you're now required to have a 9 mana setup turn where before you could play Thaurissan alone and be left with 4 mana to do anything with, such as Dark Skies before the Thaurissan for safety. Which is why I said "in some sense the deck got better". It's not strictly better because of the 9 mana setup, but at least it's not a complete, unambiguous downside. The Warlock no longer needs to pay health for the combo, so getting low doesn't prevent you from going off.
Drakkari Enchanter will never replace Bloodbloom, because it costs 3. The whole thing about Mecha'thun-lock was playing the even build. I'd rather run 2 Galvanizer than the Enchanter to still keep the deck even cost. That 1-mana tap is too important.
The 1 mana tap prevents you from running Kobold Librarians, which are 1 mana taps with a body, Mortal Coils, which are 1 mana taps with removal without the face damage, Dark Skies, which double as both AoE and spot removal, Godfrey, which is a cheaper Twisting Nether with a body, then there's Plague of Flames...yes, Drakkari Enchanter will take Bloodbloom's slot in most Mechathun Warlocks because those are way stronger than the Even variant. And given that Mechathun Warlock apparently hangs around at tier 4 according to the latest meta snapshot, that'd mean the Even variant is somewhere in tier 5 at best.
Lord Jaraxxus needs to become a hero card.. the reduction to 15 hp is the thing holding it back.. yes now it's playable kind of.. still would play galakround 9/10 times instead of jaraxxus
it's the first hero card in the game.. can't they.. change him to be like that? I know it got some interactions from being generated as a demon.. but the card is outdated and it could use some new design.. I mean why a win condition hero card is counterable by cards such as dirty rat?
Also I am disappointed it took them THAT long to finally take out that crippling weakness of lord jaraxxus..
Just reduce the cost to 8 mana so you can summon a 6/6 on the same turn you play him.
Then he'd just destroy any control deck, and being in an evergreen set that's not good.
At the moment, his only weakness is that he's a 9 mana equip a 3/8 weapon. Take that away and Lord Jaraxxus will legit be in contention in every warlock deck right now.
they already stated that they don't think Jaraxxus is weak and just meta-dependent so I doubt they'd ever change him into a legit hero card.
I mean, even if they updated him, he'd still be laughably weak at 9-mana with no immediate impact outside of a garbage weapon.
Oh, I strongly agree with this statement.
Open the Waygate now requires 8 Spells...
I'm sorry, but did the Devs forget that Mana Cyclone, Primordial Glyph, Magic Trick, Ray of Frost, Banana Buffoon, Licensed Adventurer and Evocation are actual Cards that exist?
Like, what's this supposed to be? A minor Inconvenience?
It's actually a bigger inconvenience than you're giving it credit for. Remember, you are doing next to nothing (both tempo-wise and survivability-wise) when you are dinking around generating random spells, the one caveat for this statement being when you discover a discounted spell you can play right away.
This means that aggro and midrange, control to an obvious lesser degree, are able to pressure your face. Spending mana simply to add more mana (cards) to your hand affects the game in no way until you get average or good cards and start spending that mana to deal with the opponent's threats.
A really good example of this is that 5 mana generate 3 spells card (Cabalist's Tome?). Why do you think most non-Quest non-otk mage decks didn't use that? One reason is because you spent so much mana at the end of the day, essentially doing nothing but generating and adding cards to your hand, that you massively fell behind on board and were at that much more risk to dying.
Tl;dr - At the end of the day you spend mana to add more cards that cost mana to your hand, which again you have to spend quickly. Adding 2 additional spells to that actually is a big deal because it slows you down a lot and makes you more at risk for dying if you don't just generate cheap spells 100% of the time.
From personal experience playing the deck this season. This change will do nothing to quest mage. It will absolutely neuter Reno mage, but that deck wasn’t the final boss of the meta. With good mulligans I could consistently cast upwards of 20 spells on turn 5. If you had flamewaker and sorcerer’s apprentice you just kill them on the spot. Honestly I think the way to slow this deck down is just bump apprentice to 3. The quest is going to be finished relatively quickly until you get to 12. Apprentice however, in a class full of 1-cost spells, generates far too much value for a 2-drop. It feels like I’m playing storm in mtg when I play sorcerer’s apprentice and flamewaker together turn 5, and then string together a bunch of spells, then cast evocation and do it again. I’ve killed people turn 4 with quest mage, and the quest had nothing to with my wins maybe 15% of the time, simply because I generated so much value so quickly.
TLDR: this nerf won’t affect normal quest mage, but nerfing sorcerer’s apprentice would
Yeah, I would have agreed with those arguments if it wasn't for the fact, that cyclone mage 1) runs cheap spells and 2) benefits from casting them in combination with Sorcerer's Apprentice +Flamewaker/Stargazer Luna, so you aren't really doing nothing if you have those cards. And you still have some defensive options in the form of secrets and freeze effects.
I remember Cabalist's Tome and how running and playing it was a huge penalty for trying to complete the quest. Now you have cheaper alternatives, some of which also offer some kind of a board presence - Violet Spellwing (a fair turn 1 play) or, if you decide to start with the quest, you have Licensed Adventurer.
So, the present quest mage has undoubtedly a lot of strong synergies. It's not as weak as it used to be in the past, like you are describing it.
Sacrificial Pact - they nerfed Malchezaar interaction in Karazhan adventure D:
With regards to Demon Hunter, I'm very happy with the Battlefiend nerf. I think Altruis the Outcast shouldn't do face damage with its ability, but the mana nerf is appreciated. I think Glaivebound Adept needed a mana nerf more than an attack nerf.
I still think Skull of Gul'dan should only provide a 2 mana discount, but even that doesn't really slow Demon Hunter's insane draw engine since it still makes Chaos Strike, Spectral Sight, and Crimson Sigil Runner free. I'd like to see Chaos Strike nerfed to 3 mana to give it a power level more similar to Shield Block.
I still think Priestess of Fury needs a health nerf to at least 5. And finally, Twin Slice should be nerfed to 1 mana, while KEEPING Second Slice at 0. It's NOT a twinspell! Triggering both for free is broken, even with the Altruis the Outcast nerf.
I agree with you so much!
Not going to lie, I'm really disappointed with the nerf to Open the Waygate. The two extra required randomly generated spells are a such a minor increase, that it's barely noticeable. IF someone had any problems with Exodia Quest Mage prior to RoS, the 2-point increase would have been smooth af. But from the last few expansions mages got so many good ways to generate spells, that it deserved a bigger hit. Things like Mana Cyclone, Magic Trick, Licensed Adventurer and now Evocation can really pump up those numbers, especially if they are used alongside Sorcerer's Apprentice. And let's not forget Ray of Frost, that fulfills two roles at once - stalling and quest progressing. There just aren't any bad RNG-based spell generators, as they were in the past. Now there's no real penalty, when you build your deck to complete the quest.
The thing I hate about that deck is the highroll potential. This is what I despised in former community hated decks as well - Naga Sea Witch Warlock/Hunter, Big Priest, Darkest Hour Warlock, Star Aligner Druid, OG Quest Rogue etc. The last time I faced Cyclone Mage in wild, the opponent completed their quest on turn 5 with the help of Sorcerer's Apprentice, used Time Warp on the following turn alongside 2 giants and killed me with a randomly generated Fireball. Talk about highroll.
That's my opinion regarding the mage deck. The other nerfs are more or less fair: Bloodbloom's cost doubles and I doubt we will see Darkest Hour Warlock ever again. Mecha'thun warlock got hit hard, but the deck will replace the spell with Drakkari Enchanter and it will survive. Odd DH received a lot of hits, so it's very unlikely it will remain competitive in wild. As for Standard: Combo DH is going to stay - it seems that the devs are satisfied with its presence. I think mid-range DH will become stronger, now that its aggressive variant got hit in many different ways. Tbh I'm kinda excited about the Sac Pac change - I know, that Lord Jaraxxus is still a weak win-condition in comparison to Galakrond or some Plot Twist shenanigans, but I've always missed playing him and now I'm looking forward to running a control warlock deck in standard.
Completely agree with you, just thought I’d throw in more highroll examples I’ve personally done, which involved killing someone turn 4 with quest mage thanks to just sorcerer’s apprentice, flamewaker, and a good evocation. The deck probably needs sorcerer’s apprentice to be nerfed to see a real decrease in play. This nerf will push Reno quest down a bit, while normal quest will continue to ruin the format. Hopefully I’m wrong, but I don’t see that changing much. Once it is truly put down though, Reno is about to dominate this meta, which is even worse considering they just nerfed albatross.
Wow, turn 4? That sounds crazy.
Anyway, you are right about the Sorcerer's Apprentice nerf. As much as I hate seeing nerfs to Basic/Classic cards, the apprentice is indeed overperforming in that deck.
I was just about to add my 2 cents to Open the Waygate's nerf - as increasing the spell count by 2, do very little to actually slow Mage's win condition(s) - then I saw your comment summing it up admirably, so instead of a rant, +1 ^^
Well, that was underwhelming...
Battlefiend: Correct nerf. Let's see how it performs now.
Altruis the Outcast: Solves absolutely nothing. The issue with this card is how it destroys your board AND obliterates your face simultaneously. Now it deals more damage if it sticks (unlikely but still...). The cost increase only makes it slightly worse for slower DHs who care more about controlling the board than the face damage. The card is less flexible now but it will still see play in every DH deck in standard. The cost increase is very significant for wild though. Now he can't be played in Odd DH.
Glaivebound Adept: Weak nerf. Still too threatening on curve.
Kael'thas Sunstrider: The most underwhelming one. Just one more mana isn't going to solve most of its comboing issues. It's just a tiny bit slower. Maybe it will be enough to help the fastest aggro decks kill combo players. But this surely was very disappointing.
Bad Luck Albatross: The increase to 4 mana is good. A tech card should never have good stats for its mana cost. Its purpose is to counter specific strategies. It should be situational. As it is right now, it's just a good 3 drop that also messes with your opponent's strategy/deck.
Frenzied Felwing: Easier to remove which is appreciated. Most likely, it will still see play.
Sacrificial Pact: Just as expected by everyone. Now it's still an inexpensive source of healing for Galakrond Warlock but not a free heal + removal. Lord Jaraxxus can finally see some play. People will certainly experiment. Is it going to work? Maybe. We will see.
Bloodbloom: As i expected. This should stop Darkest Hour Warlock but it will hurt other decks as well.
Open the Waygate: Probably not enough. Mages are too efficient at generating random spells and they have a ton of 1-cost spells. Sorcerer's Apprentice mana discount just makes it too easy to complete. There's also Primordial Glyph.
Libram of Justice: A simple 1 mana cost reduction. Just as expected. And i still think this isn't enough.
Some changes were expected but i have serious doubts about some of them (especially Kael'thas and Altruis).