If you honestly believe spells are too powerful, that only means you are not using enough of them. Everyone has access to them, after all. If you choose not to use them for some reason, it's time to re-examine your deckbuilding priorities.
Nexus health is perfect at 20. Games do not need to be longer than they are.
All regions do not need Deny. Every region has ways to achieve a similar result, even though it may not be as bluntly stated as "stop an effect."
If you feel like you are not drawing enough cards, you need to account for that in your own deckbuilding, not by changing the rules of the game. There are plenty of ways to draw more cards; it's not the game's fault if you can't be bothered to use them.
Again, not complaining about a lack of free stuff. THAT WAS NEVER MY POINT.
The only reason I mention "slightly better" static rewards is because taking away the random upgrades would actually diminish the overall rewards you receive unless they slightly bump up the baseline a bit.
Let me put it another way, as I think there are some misunderstandings about my intent.
First, this isn't about jealousy that maybe someone else got better stuff than me. I'm fully aware of the Law of Averages and that these things tend to even out over time, creating a level playing field for everyone. It's not about some imagined immediate "unfairness."
(I do disagree that these upgrades are a "feel good" feature. I strongly doubt most players are even remotely aware of the baseline rewards, so they may not realize what the upgrade even means. I will add, however, that random positive reinforcement is the oldest psychological trick in the book, and frankly I find it a bit insulting to be treated like a lab rat in a Skinner box. If the game is good, I'll play it. I don't need to be cajoled with mind games.)
Also, I'm not accusing Riot of any kind of bait-and-switch here. I know they never promised not to randomize rewards. I'd be surprised if they ever considered any other way. I'm just saying I wish they would take their philosophy about purchased items and apply it throughout the rest of the game.
To say "all card games have always done it, so that's just how it is" has already been proven false by killing randomized packs for purchase. By extension, there's no need for rewards to have random rarities.
Note that I did not say "no randomized rewards." I'm perfectly fine with receiving a random rare card, for example. But it should always be a rare card, not a common card with a 10 percent chance of upgrading.
@KANSAS: Yes, I would like to completely abolish upgrading rewards in exchange for slightly fewer rewards that are slightly better by default and totally consistent in their rarity.
One of the biggest things that attracted me to this game was that Riot had ditched the random-packs model, allowing the players to craft exactly the cards they want. In particular, the uncertain rarities of the cards in random packs often leads to a feels-bad situation when, for example, you get nothing but forty dust worth of garbage in Hearthstone.
So in Runeterra, I kinda hate the way that, even at max level, the Vault reward is mostly bad cards by default, with a random chance to upgrade each drop. It is basically full of random packs!
(For those who don't know: A diamond chest contains several hundred shards plus three rare capsules. Each rare capsule contains a handful of common cards and one guaranteed rare, much like a Hearthstone pack. And also like Hearthstone, there's a very small random chance that each capsule and card can spontaneously upgrade to a rarer version of itself.)
Getting three rare capsules that fail to upgrade out of a diamond chest is a bit of a letdown, considering how hard you worked to earn it.
I would much rather receive slightly fewer, better rewards than a larger number of weak rewards that might upgrade if I get lucky. A diamond chest should guarantee at least one epic capsule, don't you think?
This whole random upgrade thing is just a throwback to the microtransaction model everyone is starting to despise, which I thought Runeterra might be trying to move away from. Can we please just ditch it altogether?
It was a promotional event open to a very limited number of players.
There is no way in hell they would ever let you keep your progress after something like that, and they were very open about the fact that progress would be wiped. If you consider that a waste of time, you shouldn't have bothered.
I'm starting to think more and more that the only viable way to get 3 champions of a kind is to buy champion wildcards with real world cash, which is kinda a bummer.
Crafting a Champion with shards is perfectly viable. You get a lot of extra random value by doing an Expedition, and that's balanced against the phenomenal value of creating exactly the Champion you need. Both options are good; it just depends on your needs at the moment, your long-term goals, and your level of patience.
There is always an XP bonus for Expeditions, even after you've run three, with no cap and no diminishing returns. Of course, you have to get seven wins to get the top bonus, but even just a win or two is worthwhile.
I know it's hard for a free player to save up enough shards for three Expeditions in a week, and I'm sure that's by design. If I were a free player, I'd save up my tokens from the Vault until I could spend three in one week. Better than that is to buy a few coins and support the game. Either way, it is worth it to unlock the only unlimited source of XP, especially if you like draft mode.
Apart from that, here are the daily caps for each category:
30 PvP wins
10 PvP losses
20 AI wins
10 AI losses
(There is also the daily PvP bonus and the quests, but that all runs out long before you hit the caps.)
Sorry, I was going off of the keyword list in the forum here, assuming it was taken directly from the game.
At any rate, we get how it works; re-explaining it in different ways doesn't make it more correct. The interactions as you describe them could still be unintended. Or even if they are intended (for now), there's no reason they couldn't be retuned if Overwhelm proves to be overperforming.
Coins are purchased with cash. Apart from cosmetic items, your ability to spend coins in the game is very limited, with a weekly reset. You may use them to purchase up to 3 Champions, 3 epics, 6 rares and 6 commons per week, plus expedition tokens (of which you can use only 2 or three per week).
Wildcards are exactly as you said: You used them to craft a card of the given rarity, on a 1-1 basis.
Each Expedition Token will get you one expedition run, consisting of two trials (i.e. separate drafts). Each trial lasts up to seven wins or two consecutive losses, whichever comes first (though you do not get a second chance at the final battle). Each trial grants an XP bonus upon completion (up to 2000 XP for seven wins), so it's important to do your best on both trials. Your first three Expeditions also grant card and shard rewards based on the completed trial with the better record; the worse trial doesn't figure in at all for this part of the reward. This final reward always includes a random Champion.
After three Expeditions in one week, further Expeditions are free to enter, but they are only one trial apiece and there are no card or shard rewards. You simply get the normal trial completion XP bonus based on your number of wins.
Shards can come from chests or from receiving a fourth copy of a common or rare. (Extras are converted automatically; you can never actually own more than three copies of anything.) Shards can be spent to craft any card or to enter an Expedition.
Note also that random card rewards of epic or Champion rarity will never be a fourth copy. You will always get something you didn't have three of.
Also, the shard price to craft a Champion is 3000, the same as the price to enter an Expedition (up to three Expeditions per week). The deciding factor here is: Do you need a specific Champion, or are you content with a random one plus the additional Expedition rewards? In the long run, Expeditions are more economical than spending your shards on Champions directly, but in the short term, your decks will be better if you craft what you actually need.
The point is that Overwhelm doesn't care what happens to the blocking minion: it just calculates the difference between the attack value and the health value and everything exceeding is inflicted as damage to the Nexus.
Barrier protect only the minion with it from the first istance of damage, but that doesn't affect in any way further injuries dealt to other targets. Another example of this is Withering Wail: if one of the enemy minion has Barrier, the damage is prevented only for that single one but not for all the others.
That's not the point at all, though. Withering Wail states that it damages all enemy units. Overwhelm is not supposed to hit the nexus unless the unit dies (or is removed from combat, which should probably be the actual wording). Barrier does not remove anything from combat.
The definitions of both keywords point to this not working.
Board clears are a part of collectable card games, period.
More important, the statement that "all good players understand that setting up your field while diminishing the enemies is more important than constantly belittling the opponents hp" is very, very far from the truth.
There are multiple strategies possible in a game like this, and many different ways to win. In fact, a dominant control strategy has always been to allow the opponent to overextend on the board, then destroy everything and start fresh with the advantage.
When you are playing against Shadow Isles (or Noxus or Demacia, for that matter) it's important to remember that many factions have ways to wipe out your entire board with ease, so it's usually wise to hold some resources in reserve if you can. Sometimes you just can't possibly win without going all in, and that's just one of those decisions that separate the seasoned players from those with room to grow.
Identifying your opponent as control, midrange or aggro is your first step toward playing around such crushing strategies.
I agree -- they should either reduce the health or remove Overwhelm. Or not snowball.
I strongly disagree that other 6-mana followers are as impactful. Champions, perhaps, but not followers.
Apart from those that revive themselves, I can't think of any follower that's so difficult to remove. It is effectively immune to combat the first round, and it is guaranteed to take several units down while dealing massive nexus damage at the same time -- all with no precondition to be met.
Listing a bunch of hard removals is not particularly helpful -- by definition, those work on literally everything. A 6-mana follower that snowballs very quickly should not require hard removal.
One way to fix it would be to keep its stats at 0/12, but add: "Play: Capture an ally to grant me that ally's power." Because the ally is piloting it, see? (And remove the Attack effect, because logically, why would a real battering ram's attacks get stronger over time?)
Unless a dev has commented, I don't think anyone should be saying "working as intended."
Since the Barrier keyword is supposed to negate the damage, and "negate" means "cause to be ineffective," it makes sense that the damage should not happen at all.
Yes, I'm in the camp that believes there are too few ways to counter Overwhelm as it is.
I was pretty hyped before release, and honestly I'm enjoying it even more than I thought I would. The only part of OP's "cons" I agree with is that the UI can be a little weird to navigate. The buttons are definitely way too boxy and bland.
I love Expeditions, whereas I never could get into Hearthstone Arena or drafting in Magic no matter how I tried. The bucket approach to drafting and the back-to-back loss rule just make it so much more approachable.
I love the progression system; any game with randomized packs is going to feel like a huge ripoff after this.
I love that the "classes/colors" are region-based and so deeply rooted in lore. I also love that they plan to add more over time.
I love that Champions are the true centerpieces of most decks, and getting them into play is so baked into the overall game design.
I also love that Champions level up, and that there's a whole extra level of strategy surrounding that.
I love how the Champions' abilities so vividly reflect their lore and personalities. This is true of most followers, too. In other games (and I'm sure this gets harder over time), it very often seems like an ability was imagined first, and then slapped onto some random minion with a very contrived-sounding name that only vaguely relates to the mechanical part of the card. I hope Riot can keep making their cards seem as organic and unforced as this first batch.
I love that there's no land, and I love how spell mana smooths out the curve so elegantly. (Seriously, guys, this tiny thing is a major work of genius!)
I love the combat. I love that the defender assigns blockers, but there's no gang-blocking and most units don't regenerate.
Besides the tiny UI issues, I'm honestly having trouble coming up with anything to complain about. Little balance things, maybe, but those would not be a critique of the game itself.
It seems a bit...let's say "odd"...if the only way to add friends is to have 2 pieces of information, one of which could only be distributed outside the game client.
Using Hearthstone as an example, I can understand why they would not enable such a thing.
Considering how the emotes in Runeterra are completely nonverbal, I suspect they are actively trying to minimize opportunities for toxic behavior.
I don't know of any basic strategy videos specific to Runeterra, but until someone makes some, it might not be a bad idea for people new to the genre to check out basic strategy videos for Magic and Hearthstone. The rules may be slightly different, but the core concepts of board control translate very well.
When I first started Hearthstone, Trump's Teachings changed my life. (Trump the streamer, not the other one.)
If you honestly believe spells are too powerful, that only means you are not using enough of them. Everyone has access to them, after all. If you choose not to use them for some reason, it's time to re-examine your deckbuilding priorities.
Nexus health is perfect at 20. Games do not need to be longer than they are.
All regions do not need Deny. Every region has ways to achieve a similar result, even though it may not be as bluntly stated as "stop an effect."
If you feel like you are not drawing enough cards, you need to account for that in your own deckbuilding, not by changing the rules of the game. There are plenty of ways to draw more cards; it's not the game's fault if you can't be bothered to use them.
Again, not complaining about a lack of free stuff. THAT WAS NEVER MY POINT.
The only reason I mention "slightly better" static rewards is because taking away the random upgrades would actually diminish the overall rewards you receive unless they slightly bump up the baseline a bit.
Let me put it another way, as I think there are some misunderstandings about my intent.
First, this isn't about jealousy that maybe someone else got better stuff than me. I'm fully aware of the Law of Averages and that these things tend to even out over time, creating a level playing field for everyone. It's not about some imagined immediate "unfairness."
(I do disagree that these upgrades are a "feel good" feature. I strongly doubt most players are even remotely aware of the baseline rewards, so they may not realize what the upgrade even means. I will add, however, that random positive reinforcement is the oldest psychological trick in the book, and frankly I find it a bit insulting to be treated like a lab rat in a Skinner box. If the game is good, I'll play it. I don't need to be cajoled with mind games.)
Also, I'm not accusing Riot of any kind of bait-and-switch here. I know they never promised not to randomize rewards. I'd be surprised if they ever considered any other way. I'm just saying I wish they would take their philosophy about purchased items and apply it throughout the rest of the game.
To say "all card games have always done it, so that's just how it is" has already been proven false by killing randomized packs for purchase. By extension, there's no need for rewards to have random rarities.
Note that I did not say "no randomized rewards." I'm perfectly fine with receiving a random rare card, for example. But it should always be a rare card, not a common card with a 10 percent chance of upgrading.
@KANSAS: Yes, I would like to completely abolish upgrading rewards in exchange for slightly fewer rewards that are slightly better by default and totally consistent in their rarity.
One of the biggest things that attracted me to this game was that Riot had ditched the random-packs model, allowing the players to craft exactly the cards they want. In particular, the uncertain rarities of the cards in random packs often leads to a feels-bad situation when, for example, you get nothing but forty dust worth of garbage in Hearthstone.
So in Runeterra, I kinda hate the way that, even at max level, the Vault reward is mostly bad cards by default, with a random chance to upgrade each drop. It is basically full of random packs!
(For those who don't know: A diamond chest contains several hundred shards plus three rare capsules. Each rare capsule contains a handful of common cards and one guaranteed rare, much like a Hearthstone pack. And also like Hearthstone, there's a very small random chance that each capsule and card can spontaneously upgrade to a rarer version of itself.)
Getting three rare capsules that fail to upgrade out of a diamond chest is a bit of a letdown, considering how hard you worked to earn it.
I would much rather receive slightly fewer, better rewards than a larger number of weak rewards that might upgrade if I get lucky. A diamond chest should guarantee at least one epic capsule, don't you think?
This whole random upgrade thing is just a throwback to the microtransaction model everyone is starting to despise, which I thought Runeterra might be trying to move away from. Can we please just ditch it altogether?
They are whimsical animated stickers, for crying out loud. They aren't even voiced!
There is no etiquette, and there never will be.
Anyone who has a problem with the way another player is emoting can mute them. Problem solved.
That wasn't even a beta, per se.
It was a promotional event open to a very limited number of players.
There is no way in hell they would ever let you keep your progress after something like that, and they were very open about the fact that progress would be wiped. If you consider that a waste of time, you shouldn't have bothered.
If you intend to spend any money on this game whatsoever, you should start with the Starter Pack.
It contains some of the most useful commons and rares in the game, and you will be very glad you don't have to craft them.
I assume it's the region whose cards you used the most up to that point.
Crafting a Champion with shards is perfectly viable. You get a lot of extra random value by doing an Expedition, and that's balanced against the phenomenal value of creating exactly the Champion you need. Both options are good; it just depends on your needs at the moment, your long-term goals, and your level of patience.
This is actually not true. There are several ways to get duplicate Champions on the board at the same time.
They do not act like legendary cards in Magic.
There is always an XP bonus for Expeditions, even after you've run three, with no cap and no diminishing returns. Of course, you have to get seven wins to get the top bonus, but even just a win or two is worthwhile.
I know it's hard for a free player to save up enough shards for three Expeditions in a week, and I'm sure that's by design. If I were a free player, I'd save up my tokens from the Vault until I could spend three in one week. Better than that is to buy a few coins and support the game. Either way, it is worth it to unlock the only unlimited source of XP, especially if you like draft mode.
Apart from that, here are the daily caps for each category:
(There is also the daily PvP bonus and the quests, but that all runs out long before you hit the caps.)
Sorry, I was going off of the keyword list in the forum here, assuming it was taken directly from the game.
At any rate, we get how it works; re-explaining it in different ways doesn't make it more correct. The interactions as you describe them could still be unintended. Or even if they are intended (for now), there's no reason they couldn't be retuned if Overwhelm proves to be overperforming.
Coins are purchased with cash. Apart from cosmetic items, your ability to spend coins in the game is very limited, with a weekly reset. You may use them to purchase up to 3 Champions, 3 epics, 6 rares and 6 commons per week, plus expedition tokens (of which you can use only 2 or three per week).
Wildcards are exactly as you said: You used them to craft a card of the given rarity, on a 1-1 basis.
Each Expedition Token will get you one expedition run, consisting of two trials (i.e. separate drafts). Each trial lasts up to seven wins or two consecutive losses, whichever comes first (though you do not get a second chance at the final battle). Each trial grants an XP bonus upon completion (up to 2000 XP for seven wins), so it's important to do your best on both trials. Your first three Expeditions also grant card and shard rewards based on the completed trial with the better record; the worse trial doesn't figure in at all for this part of the reward. This final reward always includes a random Champion.
After three Expeditions in one week, further Expeditions are free to enter, but they are only one trial apiece and there are no card or shard rewards. You simply get the normal trial completion XP bonus based on your number of wins.
Shards can come from chests or from receiving a fourth copy of a common or rare. (Extras are converted automatically; you can never actually own more than three copies of anything.) Shards can be spent to craft any card or to enter an Expedition.
Note also that random card rewards of epic or Champion rarity will never be a fourth copy. You will always get something you didn't have three of.
Also, the shard price to craft a Champion is 3000, the same as the price to enter an Expedition (up to three Expeditions per week). The deciding factor here is: Do you need a specific Champion, or are you content with a random one plus the additional Expedition rewards? In the long run, Expeditions are more economical than spending your shards on Champions directly, but in the short term, your decks will be better if you craft what you actually need.
That's not the point at all, though. Withering Wail states that it damages all enemy units. Overwhelm is not supposed to hit the nexus unless the unit dies (or is removed from combat, which should probably be the actual wording). Barrier does not remove anything from combat.
The definitions of both keywords point to this not working.
Board clears are a part of collectable card games, period.
More important, the statement that "all good players understand that setting up your field while diminishing the enemies is more important than constantly belittling the opponents hp" is very, very far from the truth.
There are multiple strategies possible in a game like this, and many different ways to win. In fact, a dominant control strategy has always been to allow the opponent to overextend on the board, then destroy everything and start fresh with the advantage.
When you are playing against Shadow Isles (or Noxus or Demacia, for that matter) it's important to remember that many factions have ways to wipe out your entire board with ease, so it's usually wise to hold some resources in reserve if you can. Sometimes you just can't possibly win without going all in, and that's just one of those decisions that separate the seasoned players from those with room to grow.
Identifying your opponent as control, midrange or aggro is your first step toward playing around such crushing strategies.
I agree -- they should either reduce the health or remove Overwhelm. Or not snowball.
I strongly disagree that other 6-mana followers are as impactful. Champions, perhaps, but not followers.
Apart from those that revive themselves, I can't think of any follower that's so difficult to remove. It is effectively immune to combat the first round, and it is guaranteed to take several units down while dealing massive nexus damage at the same time -- all with no precondition to be met.
Listing a bunch of hard removals is not particularly helpful -- by definition, those work on literally everything. A 6-mana follower that snowballs very quickly should not require hard removal.
One way to fix it would be to keep its stats at 0/12, but add: "Play: Capture an ally to grant me that ally's power." Because the ally is piloting it, see? (And remove the Attack effect, because logically, why would a real battering ram's attacks get stronger over time?)
Unless a dev has commented, I don't think anyone should be saying "working as intended."
Since the Barrier keyword is supposed to negate the damage, and "negate" means "cause to be ineffective," it makes sense that the damage should not happen at all.
Yes, I'm in the camp that believes there are too few ways to counter Overwhelm as it is.
I was pretty hyped before release, and honestly I'm enjoying it even more than I thought I would. The only part of OP's "cons" I agree with is that the UI can be a little weird to navigate. The buttons are definitely way too boxy and bland.
I love Expeditions, whereas I never could get into Hearthstone Arena or drafting in Magic no matter how I tried. The bucket approach to drafting and the back-to-back loss rule just make it so much more approachable.
I love the progression system; any game with randomized packs is going to feel like a huge ripoff after this.
I love that the "classes/colors" are region-based and so deeply rooted in lore. I also love that they plan to add more over time.
I love that Champions are the true centerpieces of most decks, and getting them into play is so baked into the overall game design.
I also love that Champions level up, and that there's a whole extra level of strategy surrounding that.
I love how the Champions' abilities so vividly reflect their lore and personalities. This is true of most followers, too. In other games (and I'm sure this gets harder over time), it very often seems like an ability was imagined first, and then slapped onto some random minion with a very contrived-sounding name that only vaguely relates to the mechanical part of the card. I hope Riot can keep making their cards seem as organic and unforced as this first batch.
I love that there's no land, and I love how spell mana smooths out the curve so elegantly. (Seriously, guys, this tiny thing is a major work of genius!)
I love the combat. I love that the defender assigns blockers, but there's no gang-blocking and most units don't regenerate.
Besides the tiny UI issues, I'm honestly having trouble coming up with anything to complain about. Little balance things, maybe, but those would not be a critique of the game itself.
Using Hearthstone as an example, I can understand why they would not enable such a thing.
Considering how the emotes in Runeterra are completely nonverbal, I suspect they are actively trying to minimize opportunities for toxic behavior.
I don't know of any basic strategy videos specific to Runeterra, but until someone makes some, it might not be a bad idea for people new to the genre to check out basic strategy videos for Magic and Hearthstone. The rules may be slightly different, but the core concepts of board control translate very well.
When I first started Hearthstone, Trump's Teachings changed my life. (Trump the streamer, not the other one.)