I wouldn't exactly say Mana Cyclone, CC, and Dr. Boom are cards that are indicative of shying away from power creep. Mana Cyclone already sees play in wild Quest Mage ladder, CC is still extremely good midrange/early late game pressure, and a permanent rush aura (even when not potentially highrolling into desirable hero powers) is extremely potent in grindy attrition games. I've yet to be swayed that strong cards will not eventually compete against many viable odd/even decks. I feel that this debate is just focused on personal dislike of the playstyle as opposed to legitimate reasons why T5 should do a massive power check for multiple decks in an eternal ccg format.
I can't but help you're ignoring what the purpose of wild was intended for. It was for players to play whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted (again with tier 0 caveats). Saying that any card, deck, or playstyle is going to be wild's problem forever is pretty irrelevant when considering what an eternal format is. EVERY card game has a format where you are allowed to use all of your cards and if you didn't want to play against those than most of those card games also had another format to escape such strategies. Why are you so intent on making HS break this mold by essentially doing balance passes on decks in a mode where that isn't intended to happen, solely for the personal preference of just a portion of the format's players? I find this perspective especially annoying when it is spread by players who never were veteran players in any card game prior to Hearthstone. Changing cards in every format because you don't like them actually doesn't follow the CCG model that games like MtG and Yu-Gi-Oh ultimately followed. You want to play with any and all cards in the game? You can do that in one format. You don't want this? You can also do that in another format. Hitting everything with the nerf hammer, even in an eternal format, makes it so that players who have actually supported the product by putting money into it have less return on their contribution because in the end their decks can get broken by the vocal minority anyway.
In the end T5 does not agree with the logic that you are in support of anyway, so ultimately this conversation is null and void, but I thought I'd address this nonetheless because newer/ex-standard players keep advocating for breaking cards or decks that are not tier 0 just so that they don't have to play them/against them. You don't want to face older strategies then go to standard.
What, you're trying to pull some 'veteran card game' elitism act now? Pathetic.
None of those cards you mentioned come even close to Genn, Baku and others cards. Dr. Boom, Mad Genius is ridiculously strong in standard and ridiculously mediocre in wild. Conjurer's Calling sees no play whatsoever in wild and Mana Cyclone only allows for a deck that heavily struggles with consistency (hey, that term sounds familiar). Death knights, quests, LoE explorers are all weaker than their previous iterations. Sure, we might get one or two cards that are strong for wild's standards per expansion but none of these will compare to the power level of past expansions.
Your view on what you think Blizzard's idea of wild is is extremely warped and went out the window the second they nerfed Patches the Pirate and Raza the Chained right before they would be rotated.
I can't play old Undertaker hunter. I can't play old patron warrior. I can't play the old Force of Nature combo. This isn't an eternal format where I can play all the old cards and combos as they used to be. This is some crappy in-between mode where we sort of have all the cards but Blizzard comes in and butchers one or two every now and then as an act of half-assed balancing.
You can try and pretend like you know what wild is supposed to be all you want but when the developers themselves don't even know you just look like a fool.
You seem overly focused on the 'stale' part, yet this was only one of the few reasons why I'm not opposed to nerfing those cards. Nor did I ever say any of those decks were unbeatable. They're just too consistent at what they do and this won't change. Hence why these decks will forever stay on top in wild.
Your argument about stronger cards being added would've made sense a year ago, but not anymore. Blizzard are purposely shying away from stronger cards to prevent a power creep. Just compare the current highlander cards to their previous League of Explorers iterations. Hence why I believe that we will never see cards as strong as Genn Greymane and Baku the Mooneater ever again.
And if Blizzard actually knew what they were doing they would've a. made counters for Genn and Baku decks in the new expansion or b. altered both cards in a meaningful way. But they didn't do either. They chose for the easy, band-aid solution by making them wild's problem forever.
I guess this is the bad legendary of the set? Sure it might be a good addition to some pools like Conjurer's Calling but it's not a card you ever want to put in your deck.
That's perfectly fine. If you're satisfied with those choices then by all means, go for it! Hope you can make it work.
Regarding Tarim: Say your opponent has three high statted minions. You play Tarim and those three minions turn into 3/3s. Tarim has 7 health. Meaning your opponent will have to trade all three of their, previously high statted, minions into that single six-drop of yours before they can get to your face. That's part of what makes him so strong.
And regarding Uther: The wild meta has developed enough where aggro decks can still win even if you manage to hit Reno on turn 6. I myself have won against plenty of Reno Warlocks who had Reno on curve. But I still managed to kill them with Odd Rogue and Even Shaman for instance. Hence my suggestion to add more healing than just Reno, and Uther fits the bill of lategame healing perfectly fine.
Now that I think of it, in regards to my previous suggestion of running strong early game drops rather than murlocs, you could also consider adding Wickerflame Burnbristle like Wolfric suggested. That's also a great card to help your survive against early aggression.
And lastly, why not add Tirion Fordring? He seems fantastic in a deathrattle oriented paladin deck.
Your gameplan would be to get the 2 mana finley over anything, right? Because his upgraded hero power is the most valuable. In that case you will never want to play Sir Finley Mrrgglton afterwards, making him a dead card. Hence why I propose cutting him entirely. You can replace him with cards that seek to draw Sir Finley of the Sands, such as Witchwood Piper and Call to Adventure to get that upgraded hero power early more consistently.
Sunkeeper Tarim is the best paladin legendary in the game, period. Not only does he require three of your opponent's minions to get past, he can also buff your board if you ever get a few low cost minions to survive. He is far more versatile than Eadric the Pure and every paladin deck that can run him, runs him.
Uther of the Ebon Blade provides late game value in the form of his 2/2s. You could even try running cards like Youthful Brewmaster and Baleful Banker to have an alternate win condition. (Plus those cards if ticked by Emperor Thaurissan together with [Hearthstone Card (n'zoth the corruptor) Not Found] can provide a second wave of deathrattle minions.) And besides that, a 5/3 weapon and 20 healing over 3 turns could often seal the deal against aggro decks if you get him on curve. Don't underestimate that.
You enjoy it? Good for you. And yes, I know that Quest Warrior was played during the Un'Goro early Meta. But it was crap.
Also, its an Archetype that they've pushed before. Stolen Goods was MSoG as was I Know a Guy and cards like King's Defender were released in The Grand Tournament. You can go back to 2016 and see Taunt Warrior Decks. And they were shit.
So yeah. It took two OP Legendary Cards to make Taunt Warrior work. So why are they pushing it again?
It would be nice if they came up with something else.
I'm pretty sure Quest warrior was the top quest deck together with rogue. Both were tier 1/2, far from crap.
It's usually better to stick with one deck during your climb, especially at lower ranks, unless you face nothing but counters to your deck. Token druid has a pretty even matchup spread meaning that it's really hard to counter and has no real insta-loss matchups.
If you're looking for a change of pace though, I recommend bomb hunter. It's one of the stronger decks in this meta and extremely efficient at laddering, especially at the lower ranks.
Wild Even Shaman: T1 Hero Power, T2 Totem Golem, T3 Hero Power or other totem, T4 Splitting Axe ... voila, Thing from Below already at 0 cost. This can be nuts.
1. This is assuming that all of those totems survive for the first three turns. Good luck with that in wild.
2. Any other time where you don't get this dream curve you're stuck with a 4 mana 3/2 weapon which is pretty terrible for a deck that relies on playing overstatted cards.
3. At turn 4 a 0 mana Thing from Below doesn't win you the game anymore in wild. It's strong, but nothing special. Definitely not worth running two copies of a subpar weapon for.
A standard aggro rogue would like it (not the current one, which runs Waggle Pick). But I am just curious to know whether odd rogue would put this in their decks, but I think the weapon would be too slow - you have to play a 1-drop (a Lackey, Pirate or a Fire Fly) and then the 4/2 blade, which becomes a 4-mana combo, but isn't rogue already satisfied with their upgraded HP?
The reason they're an odd deck in the first place is for the 2/2 hero power. Adding a weapon kind of counters their own gameplan. Besides, with Hench-Clan Thug and Southsea Captain I'm pretty sure the 3 drop slot is competitive enough already.
This might see play in aggro rogue (wild) though, that deck already sees fringe play and seems pretty good.
In standard this also looks really good. A 4/2 weapon is nothing to scoff at, especially when it's only 3 mana.
I guess this might give Aluneth mage a fighting chance against odd paladin and other board-centric decks. And since Aluneth mage is one of the best counters against big priest I can only approve. Only downside is that the AoE from this card won't come out earlier than turn 3/4, which might be too late at that point.
So it looks like mage will be getting a new secret with all this secret support.
If you have non-beasts in the discover pool of 3 minions after play Master's Call then you will get a copy, rather than the actual card from your deck, yes. If all 3 cards in the discover pool are beasts, then you will draw them from your deck, rather than getting copies.
This is incorrect. It is always draws. Master's Call states "Discover a minion in your deck". Compare it to Stitched Tracker which states "Discover a copy of a minion in your deck"
If you have non-beasts in the discover pool of 3 minions after play Master's Call then you will get a copy, rather than the actual card from your deck, yes. If all 3 cards in the discover pool are beasts, then you will draw them from your deck, rather than getting copies.
Also, it might be better to combine this thread with your previous one in the future. Seems kind of a waste to create two separate threads for two Master's Call questions.
Secretkeeper and Sorcerer's Apprentice
[Card] put the exact card name here [/card]
If that's what you're looking for.
What, you're trying to pull some 'veteran card game' elitism act now? Pathetic.
None of those cards you mentioned come even close to Genn, Baku and others cards. Dr. Boom, Mad Genius is ridiculously strong in standard and ridiculously mediocre in wild. Conjurer's Calling sees no play whatsoever in wild and Mana Cyclone only allows for a deck that heavily struggles with consistency (hey, that term sounds familiar). Death knights, quests, LoE explorers are all weaker than their previous iterations. Sure, we might get one or two cards that are strong for wild's standards per expansion but none of these will compare to the power level of past expansions.
Your view on what you think Blizzard's idea of wild is is extremely warped and went out the window the second they nerfed Patches the Pirate and Raza the Chained right before they would be rotated.
I can't play old Undertaker hunter. I can't play old patron warrior. I can't play the old Force of Nature combo. This isn't an eternal format where I can play all the old cards and combos as they used to be. This is some crappy in-between mode where we sort of have all the cards but Blizzard comes in and butchers one or two every now and then as an act of half-assed balancing.
You can try and pretend like you know what wild is supposed to be all you want but when the developers themselves don't even know you just look like a fool.
You seem overly focused on the 'stale' part, yet this was only one of the few reasons why I'm not opposed to nerfing those cards. Nor did I ever say any of those decks were unbeatable. They're just too consistent at what they do and this won't change. Hence why these decks will forever stay on top in wild.
Your argument about stronger cards being added would've made sense a year ago, but not anymore. Blizzard are purposely shying away from stronger cards to prevent a power creep. Just compare the current highlander cards to their previous League of Explorers iterations. Hence why I believe that we will never see cards as strong as Genn Greymane and Baku the Mooneater ever again.
And if Blizzard actually knew what they were doing they would've a. made counters for Genn and Baku decks in the new expansion or b. altered both cards in a meaningful way. But they didn't do either. They chose for the easy, band-aid solution by making them wild's problem forever.
I guess this is the bad legendary of the set? Sure it might be a good addition to some pools like Conjurer's Calling but it's not a card you ever want to put in your deck.
That's perfectly fine. If you're satisfied with those choices then by all means, go for it! Hope you can make it work.
Regarding Tarim: Say your opponent has three high statted minions. You play Tarim and those three minions turn into 3/3s. Tarim has 7 health. Meaning your opponent will have to trade all three of their, previously high statted, minions into that single six-drop of yours before they can get to your face. That's part of what makes him so strong.
And regarding Uther: The wild meta has developed enough where aggro decks can still win even if you manage to hit Reno on turn 6. I myself have won against plenty of Reno Warlocks who had Reno on curve. But I still managed to kill them with Odd Rogue and Even Shaman for instance. Hence my suggestion to add more healing than just Reno, and Uther fits the bill of lategame healing perfectly fine.
Now that I think of it, in regards to my previous suggestion of running strong early game drops rather than murlocs, you could also consider adding Wickerflame Burnbristle like Wolfric suggested. That's also a great card to help your survive against early aggression.
And lastly, why not add Tirion Fordring? He seems fantastic in a deathrattle oriented paladin deck.
Your gameplan would be to get the 2 mana finley over anything, right? Because his upgraded hero power is the most valuable. In that case you will never want to play Sir Finley Mrrgglton afterwards, making him a dead card. Hence why I propose cutting him entirely. You can replace him with cards that seek to draw Sir Finley of the Sands, such as Witchwood Piper and Call to Adventure to get that upgraded hero power early more consistently.
Sunkeeper Tarim is the best paladin legendary in the game, period. Not only does he require three of your opponent's minions to get past, he can also buff your board if you ever get a few low cost minions to survive. He is far more versatile than Eadric the Pure and every paladin deck that can run him, runs him.
Uther of the Ebon Blade provides late game value in the form of his 2/2s. You could even try running cards like Youthful Brewmaster and Baleful Banker to have an alternate win condition. (Plus those cards if ticked by Emperor Thaurissan together with [Hearthstone Card (n'zoth the corruptor) Not Found] can provide a second wave of deathrattle minions.) And besides that, a 5/3 weapon and 20 healing over 3 turns could often seal the deal against aggro decks if you get him on curve. Don't underestimate that.
2 mana 2/2 with battlecry: draw/discover a card is super strong.
If taunt warrior becomes a legitimate deck this is an automatic 2-off.
Dump the murloc package and especially Anyfin Can Happen. That card doesn't provide a swing turn at all with so few, mediocre murlocs.
Also what's the point of running both Finleys? Cut the 1 mana one, the new one is strictly better in a reno deck.
Sunkeeper Tarim is a must. As are Equality(even after the nerf) paired with Wild Pyromancer. Add Consecration as well and maybe a weapon or two.
Uther of the Ebon Blade is also pretty much a must.
And then instead of the murlocs I would just fill up the remaining slots with some good early game minions.
It won't.
This doesn't compare to an 8/8 or 7/7.
I'm pretty sure Quest warrior was the top quest deck together with rogue. Both were tier 1/2, far from crap.
It's usually better to stick with one deck during your climb, especially at lower ranks, unless you face nothing but counters to your deck. Token druid has a pretty even matchup spread meaning that it's really hard to counter and has no real insta-loss matchups.
If you're looking for a change of pace though, I recommend bomb hunter. It's one of the stronger decks in this meta and extremely efficient at laddering, especially at the lower ranks.
A super flashy meme card. Looks really cool.
I hope it stays that way though. I can't imagine a meta deck that revolves around this card is fun to play againt.
1. This is assuming that all of those totems survive for the first three turns. Good luck with that in wild.
2. Any other time where you don't get this dream curve you're stuck with a 4 mana 3/2 weapon which is pretty terrible for a deck that relies on playing overstatted cards.
3. At turn 4 a 0 mana Thing from Below doesn't win you the game anymore in wild. It's strong, but nothing special. Definitely not worth running two copies of a subpar weapon for.
The reason they're an odd deck in the first place is for the 2/2 hero power. Adding a weapon kind of counters their own gameplan. Besides, with Hench-Clan Thug and Southsea Captain I'm pretty sure the 3 drop slot is competitive enough already.
This might see play in aggro rogue (wild) though, that deck already sees fringe play and seems pretty good.
In standard this also looks really good. A 4/2 weapon is nothing to scoff at, especially when it's only 3 mana.
Yeah as Kovachut said this as is doesn't ever go into wild even shaman. Its synergies are negligible compared to every other card in that deck.
I guess this might give Aluneth mage a fighting chance against odd paladin and other board-centric decks. And since Aluneth mage is one of the best counters against big priest I can only approve. Only downside is that the AoE from this card won't come out earlier than turn 3/4, which might be too late at that point.
So it looks like mage will be getting a new secret with all this secret support.
Medivh's Valet on steroids. The fact that that 6 damage can go face is insane. I'm just wondering what wild Aluneth mage will cut for this.
Oh really. That's my bad then!
If you have non-beasts in the discover pool of 3 minions after play Master's Call then you will get a copy, rather than the actual card from your deck, yes. If all 3 cards in the discover pool are beasts, then you will draw them from your deck, rather than getting copies.
Also, it might be better to combine this thread with your previous one in the future. Seems kind of a waste to create two separate threads for two Master's Call questions.