Depends on your hand and matchup. If you're up against an aggro deck and need to seize the board, play Animal Companion. If you're up against a slow deck and already have board presence, play Master's Call.
Likewise, if you already have cards that you plan on playing on the following turns, then you don't need to Master's Call immediately since you aren't specifically looking for anything, yet. In such an instance, it is also usually better to go for Animal Companion.
Usually giving your opponent Murlocs won't help them whatsoever.
You are giving them something when they had nothing. Even if it does nothing more than add 2 ATK to the board, you gave them that for free. It is almost never a negative for them.
Except if you're facing a control deck for instance, they would much rather have removal than a murloc.
That's completely irrelevant. You aren't taking away their removal. You're just giving them free shit to fill out their curve.
I never said that you are. But you're not exactly giving them a Lightning Storm. You're giving them a card that doesn't benefit them as greatly as the other card does for you. Sure, it's not a 2 mana 3/2 with battlecry: "draw a card" but it's still a 3/2 murloc with an upside. Namely, you getting a card that synergizes with your deck, whilst your opponent gets a random minion with no synergy for them whatsoever.
Usually giving your opponent Murlocs won't help them whatsoever.
You are giving them something when they had nothing. Even if it does nothing more than add 2 ATK to the board, you gave them that for free. It is almost never a negative for them.
Except if you're facing a control deck for instance, they would much rather have removal than a murloc. The cards that are being generated benefit you far more than they benefit your opponent, in almost all situations.
This can probably replace any mediocre two-drop that murloc shaman is currently running. Murloc Tidehunter for instance. Same stats, albeit not as wide so less value from Bloodlust, Coldlight Seer and Soul of the Murloc but it draws you a card.
This is far too slow for wild anyfin and aggro murloc paladin. By turn 8 you've either already played half of the murlocs in your deck (which aren't many, so this won't ever summon 7) thanks to Call to Arms and Finja, the Flying Star, or you've already lost, in terms of aggro paladin.
In standard, this is probably decent refill if a murloc-heavy aggro/midrange paladin deck becomes a thing. Sort of like The Forest's Aid in token druid. Except it doesn't have twinspell.
Remember, this is "add 3 random cards to your hand." When have those been super strong? You want to draw cards you actually and specifically put into your deck, not random cards.
The difference here is that this card is 3 mana, rather than cards such as Devour Mind and Cabalist's Tome which cost nearly double the amount of mana. Plus the cards that you get are more specific and generally guaranteed to be more useful than, say, a Glacial Mysteries or Shatter when you have no other freeze cards.
I'm not saying the card is super broken, but the odds of it seeing play over other "add 3 random cards to your hand" spells is significantly higher.
I believe shaman's best anti aggro package is with two Corpsetaker, Zilliax and two Walking Fountain. It gives you good early game taunts with healing. And some late game healing and removal as well. Suggestion is to cut some of the removal like Lava Shock.
I feel like ever since kingsbane nerf in leeching poison rogue has been nothing but an aggro class . Im sorry if im not an adept of blindingly play green cards
If you think that aggro decks do nothing but "blindly play green cards" then you're most likely not a very good player.
Damn, first Riftcleaver and now this? Good to see that warlock is getting some good cards.
Although this will be tough to play on curve without the coin since warlock doesn't have a 1 mana lackey generator (yet). A 3 mana 7/7 (subtracting the lackey's stats) is still insanely strong.
Yes, so let's get back to the point. You want to run a glorified Defile enabler for 2 or 3 matchups in which it -might- be relevant with a lot of setup.
You do you. I'll pass or run a Glacial Shard if I desperately need an enabler whilst not getting eaten alive by aggro decks.
Sorry, but 18 deck slots is all the average HS player can take, any more and they'll be really confused. Even 18 is a bit of a stretch, many players are not aware of numbers beyond what they can count on their fingers.
I guess people on these boards aren't familiar with sarcasm. Shame, I enjoyed it.
And doesn't the same apply to Nerubian Unraveler? I would argue, that he is only useful against Miracle Mage, because Aluneth runs a lot of minions and in case they can't answer the nerubian with their board, they can sacrifice a single 6-mana Fireball to clear it. Big Priest needs to have one good minion to die, in order to spam resurrect spells and stop caring about that 6-drop. And he is a one-of in the cubelock list, so a big priest is more likely to cast Shadow Essence before the warlock gets to play the epic.
Now here are Expired Merchant's advantages - this can be combined with Defile, unlike the nerubian it doesn't ruin your gameplan and can enter the board as early as turn 2 (however I have to admit, that warlocks would prefer to spam their HP or play a Doomsayer over it, but the fact remains that the 2/1 is still more useful than the unraveler against minion-based decks). Multiplying N'Zoth, the Corruptor and/or Bloodreaver Gul'dan would be a game winning play against Big Priest, Jade Druid, Mecha'thun/Reno warlock (cuz' once you play one of those 10-drops, your board immediately gets answered). I am aware, that the examples aren't a lot, but if the meta slows down a bit some day, this strategy would have more good targets to prey upon. If you are playing this in cubelock, having a second chance in spamming chargers would always prove to be useful. And Renolock is the incarnation of value.
Not to mention, you don't always have to multiply the aforementioned 10-drops. You could generate a second copy of Lord Godfrey against aggro or Sylvanas Windrunner against big priest. You could multiply the big demons for Voidcaller or Skull of the Man'ari, so there could always be other uses for this 2/1. Lastly, I want to be clear that people would run a single copy of this minion at max, since having two would be an overkill.
You're comparing a 6 drop that insta wins you the game against the most popular mage archetype on ladder right now (miracle mage). To a combo that not only requires you to play an awful 2-drop but you also have to have it be killed off whilst you have a specific card that you want to be duplicated in your hand. Just so that you can play said duplicated card twice which is usually a 10-drop. By the way, the popularity of miracle mage and other slower decks at legend is most likely the only reason GetMeowth runs Nerubian Unraveler in the first place. At any other bracket you just cut Loatheb and Nerubian Unraveler for healing or Doomsayer.
The speed and general use between both cards is literally night and day. One card is a just a tech card, whilst the other one is a super slow, greedy combo. I know what I'll run with in an aggressive meta, that's for sure.
"Completely unnecasery to nerf them. Yes they are in the Meta, but so are Highlander decks. And many more broken things. "
You're not seriously comparing Genn and Baku, which have been tier 1 ever since their release, to highlander decks, which have been bottom of the barrel (barely tier 3/4) for a while now, right?
Strong doesn't equal broken. You have to have tier 1 decks. If it wasn't Odd Pally it would need to be something else. Tier 0 is what is concerning. Odd Pally, Even Shaman, Odd Rogue still are not warping the entire meta like Giant Lock, Giant Hunter, & SA Druid did, there are obvious counters. The point is that not everyone plays those counters, or the counters are countered by a different deck in the meta so again players don't use them.
For example, I get my first legend (really first time past rank 5 even) with Reno Dragon Priest the season just before the Even Shaman nerf. On the meta snapshot Reno Priest was marked as one of the tier 1 decks (although now it is nowhere to be seen on any tier for some odd reason). I was able to very quickly take myself from being stuck at rank 3 clear up to legend. Want to know my easiest match-up during the grind? Even Shaman (pre nerf). Having a bunch of midrange & late game board clears, along with midrange minions and late game burn easily carried me against one of the "strongest decks in the game". I will admit Odd Pally was still strong due to their persistent staying power and Odd Rogue was 50/50, but I'm bringing this up because there are counters for the decks. Don't allow a tier list to tell you what can or can't beat the meta.
One-dimensionality shouldn't play a role in balance design in most cases. I for one find decks like Reno Lock or Reno Mage just as one dimensional as decks like Even Shaman or Odd Rogue. The more you play a deck the more auto-pilot it becomes due to the skill and familiarity you get with said deck(s).
You seem to be under the impression that a deck needs to be tier 0 with no hard counters before it becomes a nerf candidate. Sure, this might be the cause of Blizzard since that is their mentality towards wild (and even then they take ages to actually do something) but it doesn't necessarily need to be. Just look at rogue in standard. Was it broken before the nerfs to EVIL Miscreant, Raiding Party and Preparation? No, it even had a hard counter which was immensely popular in the form of warrior. Hell, I believe it dropped to tier 2 on vS' meta report right before the nerfs. But it still got nerfed nonetheless.
Odd paladin, even shaman and odd rogue have been the top decks in the wild meta pretty much since Genn and Baku were released. This has not changed and most likely won't ever change unless Blizzard intervene. You ask why reno priest doesn't see play? Because it cannot beat the consistency that Baku provides for odd rogue and odd paladin. Cherry picking a niche deck's winrate against one of the three decks doesn't change that. Hell, odd warrior hard counters all three of those decks. But what's that in its name? Oh wait, it's "odd". Surprise.
One dimensionality shouldn't usually be a factor taken into account when balancing. But when every wild player can pretty much dream the matchup against odd and even decks, because they've been around forever, it becomes extremely stale.
Why do you think Blizzard removed Genn Greymane and Baku the Mooneater from standard and threw them in Hearthstone's dumpster, aka wild, in the first place? Because they're problem cards and Blizzard have no idea what to do with them.
Yeah the more I think about it the less I see this impact wild. It's just far too slow and value-oriented. With value barely being a thing in wild this is just not worth running.
Cutting Voidlord in cubelock is basically conceding against the entire meta, which mostly consists of aggressive decks. Doomguards aren't going to save you against those decks.
Why not? I mean, I also don't think that people would cut a whole Voidlord for the Expired Merchant, but imho the 2/1 could easily replace something else. If I have to look at GetMeowth's list:
I would probably cut a Nerubian Unraveler, since most of the popular decks seem to be minion-based and Miracle Mage can be stopped with a bunch of sticky minions on the board (hey don't run single-target removal). This is just my opinion ofc.
I would probably not cut anything from it, since all of the cards seem to be essential in the current meta, but if that slows down a bit in the next expansion, then another value generator wouldn't be a bad inclusion in that deck.
Let me phrase it differently:
Against which decks do you want a second/third Bloodreaver Gul'dan or N'Zoth, the Corruptor? Compare that to the number of decks against which you don't want to play a 2/1 beforehand and/or don't even have time to play a single 10 mana card.
I see this all of these complaints about Genn & Baku in wild but I honestly don't see it. With the exception of Odd Pally I really don't see many Genn/Baku decks on wild ladder and Odd Pally counters Big Priest (which is very complained about) so I fail to see why the playstyles need a nerf.
Plus many of the Genn/Baku decks don't even see play at all. Point me in the direct of Odd Warlock, Even Mage, Odd Priest, Even Priest, Even Rogue, Even Druid, Odd Druid, Odd Shaman, Even Hunter, Odd Hunter, Even Warrior, or Even Pally. They are almost non-existent in wild.
That's 12 out of a total 18 Genn/Baku decks that see almost no play in wild. That's not indicative that the playstyle is as big of a problem as people like to suggest. Plus, these decks have to compete against Reno & Dks for the late game.
Odd paladin, odd rogue and even shaman are the strongest decks in wild. Odd warrior would be up there as well if it wasn't for big priest. And this will most likely stay this way forever until Blizzard oversees another broken combo like they did in the past (Naga Sea Witch buff/Juicy Psychmelon paired with Star Aligner and the standard druid combo).The consistency of those hero powers cannot be matched.
You don't see those other odd and even decks (minus a few) because their hero powers don't benefit as much from being upgraded nor is there a deck that syngerizes well enough with it. That doesn't mean it excuses Genn and Baku from being busted though.
Dark Pact was never an issue in zoolock either, because the deck doesn't gain anything from it. That doesn't mean the card didn't deserve a nerf. The thing with reno and death knights is that those need to be drawn first, and can only be played from turn 6 onwards. They're value bombs, not consistency bombs. That's a big difference.
Don't even get me started on how one-dimensional it is to play with and against those decks.
Except aggressive decks want consistency. Cutting your consistency in half by only running half of the cards that you really want, and replacing the other half by lesser cards, just so you can run one card that might not do anything at all if you don't draw it early or might discover hero powers that you don't need, is just a massive waste.
Depends on your hand and matchup. If you're up against an aggro deck and need to seize the board, play Animal Companion. If you're up against a slow deck and already have board presence, play Master's Call.
Likewise, if you already have cards that you plan on playing on the following turns, then you don't need to Master's Call immediately since you aren't specifically looking for anything, yet. In such an instance, it is also usually better to go for Animal Companion.
I never said that you are. But you're not exactly giving them a Lightning Storm. You're giving them a card that doesn't benefit them as greatly as the other card does for you. Sure, it's not a 2 mana 3/2 with battlecry: "draw a card" but it's still a 3/2 murloc with an upside. Namely, you getting a card that synergizes with your deck, whilst your opponent gets a random minion with no synergy for them whatsoever.
Could turn into some OTK deck with Mecha'thun and Myra's Unstable Element + any card to kill off the 1/1.
Other than that, I don't think there's enough powerful deathrattles to really make something work as it is now.
Except if you're facing a control deck for instance, they would much rather have removal than a murloc. The cards that are being generated benefit you far more than they benefit your opponent, in almost all situations.
This can probably replace any mediocre two-drop that murloc shaman is currently running. Murloc Tidehunter for instance. Same stats, albeit not as wide so less value from Bloodlust, Coldlight Seer and Soul of the Murloc but it draws you a card.
This is far too slow for wild anyfin and aggro murloc paladin. By turn 8 you've either already played half of the murlocs in your deck (which aren't many, so this won't ever summon 7) thanks to Call to Arms and Finja, the Flying Star, or you've already lost, in terms of aggro paladin.
In standard, this is probably decent refill if a murloc-heavy aggro/midrange paladin deck becomes a thing. Sort of like The Forest's Aid in token druid. Except it doesn't have twinspell.
The difference here is that this card is 3 mana, rather than cards such as Devour Mind and Cabalist's Tome which cost nearly double the amount of mana. Plus the cards that you get are more specific and generally guaranteed to be more useful than, say, a Glacial Mysteries or Shatter when you have no other freeze cards.
I'm not saying the card is super broken, but the odds of it seeing play over other "add 3 random cards to your hand" spells is significantly higher.
I guess 3 mana draw 3 will be hunter's new identity.
Oh well. Good value as a standalone card. Even better when paired with Zul'jin.
I believe shaman's best anti aggro package is with two Corpsetaker, Zilliax and two Walking Fountain. It gives you good early game taunts with healing. And some late game healing and removal as well. Suggestion is to cut some of the removal like Lava Shock.
Otherwise, Sludge Belcher, Hot Spring Guardian and Rotten Applebaum are also good standalone taunts.
If you think that aggro decks do nothing but "blindly play green cards" then you're most likely not a very good player.
Damn, first Riftcleaver and now this? Good to see that warlock is getting some good cards.
Although this will be tough to play on curve without the coin since warlock doesn't have a 1 mana lackey generator (yet). A 3 mana 7/7 (subtracting the lackey's stats) is still insanely strong.
Same thoughts. But if warlock gets some good healing cards then this card becomes really good.
Just compare this to Siphon Soul for a minute.
Doesn't work: https://gyazo.com/f523b90b28a10c5a26d7991ba17deabf
Yes, so let's get back to the point. You want to run a glorified Defile enabler for 2 or 3 matchups in which it -might- be relevant with a lot of setup.
You do you. I'll pass or run a Glacial Shard if I desperately need an enabler whilst not getting eaten alive by aggro decks.
I guess people on these boards aren't familiar with sarcasm. Shame, I enjoyed it.
You're comparing a 6 drop that insta wins you the game against the most popular mage archetype on ladder right now (miracle mage). To a combo that not only requires you to play an awful 2-drop but you also have to have it be killed off whilst you have a specific card that you want to be duplicated in your hand. Just so that you can play said duplicated card twice which is usually a 10-drop. By the way, the popularity of miracle mage and other slower decks at legend is most likely the only reason GetMeowth runs Nerubian Unraveler in the first place. At any other bracket you just cut Loatheb and Nerubian Unraveler for healing or Doomsayer.
The speed and general use between both cards is literally night and day. One card is a just a tech card, whilst the other one is a super slow, greedy combo. I know what I'll run with in an aggressive meta, that's for sure.
This thread seems bugged for me as I can't quote people properly anymore.
"Completely unnecasery to nerf them. Yes they are in the Meta, but so are Highlander decks. And many more broken things. "
You're not seriously comparing Genn and Baku, which have been tier 1 ever since their release, to highlander decks, which have been bottom of the barrel (barely tier 3/4) for a while now, right?
You seem to be under the impression that a deck needs to be tier 0 with no hard counters before it becomes a nerf candidate. Sure, this might be the cause of Blizzard since that is their mentality towards wild (and even then they take ages to actually do something) but it doesn't necessarily need to be. Just look at rogue in standard. Was it broken before the nerfs to EVIL Miscreant, Raiding Party and Preparation? No, it even had a hard counter which was immensely popular in the form of warrior. Hell, I believe it dropped to tier 2 on vS' meta report right before the nerfs. But it still got nerfed nonetheless.
Odd paladin, even shaman and odd rogue have been the top decks in the wild meta pretty much since Genn and Baku were released. This has not changed and most likely won't ever change unless Blizzard intervene. You ask why reno priest doesn't see play? Because it cannot beat the consistency that Baku provides for odd rogue and odd paladin. Cherry picking a niche deck's winrate against one of the three decks doesn't change that. Hell, odd warrior hard counters all three of those decks. But what's that in its name? Oh wait, it's "odd". Surprise.
One dimensionality shouldn't usually be a factor taken into account when balancing. But when every wild player can pretty much dream the matchup against odd and even decks, because they've been around forever, it becomes extremely stale.
Why do you think Blizzard removed Genn Greymane and Baku the Mooneater from standard and threw them in Hearthstone's dumpster, aka wild, in the first place? Because they're problem cards and Blizzard have no idea what to do with them.
Let me phrase it differently:
Against which decks do you want a second/third Bloodreaver Gul'dan or N'Zoth, the Corruptor? Compare that to the number of decks against which you don't want to play a 2/1 beforehand and/or don't even have time to play a single 10 mana card.
Odd paladin, odd rogue and even shaman are the strongest decks in wild. Odd warrior would be up there as well if it wasn't for big priest. And this will most likely stay this way forever until Blizzard oversees another broken combo like they did in the past (Naga Sea Witch buff/Juicy Psychmelon paired with Star Aligner and the standard druid combo).The consistency of those hero powers cannot be matched.
You don't see those other odd and even decks (minus a few) because their hero powers don't benefit as much from being upgraded nor is there a deck that syngerizes well enough with it. That doesn't mean it excuses Genn and Baku from being busted though.
Dark Pact was never an issue in zoolock either, because the deck doesn't gain anything from it. That doesn't mean the card didn't deserve a nerf. The thing with reno and death knights is that those need to be drawn first, and can only be played from turn 6 onwards. They're value bombs, not consistency bombs. That's a big difference.
Don't even get me started on how one-dimensional it is to play with and against those decks.
Except aggressive decks want consistency. Cutting your consistency in half by only running half of the cards that you really want, and replacing the other half by lesser cards, just so you can run one card that might not do anything at all if you don't draw it early or might discover hero powers that you don't need, is just a massive waste.