Not as exciting with all of the magnetic cards rotating, but still certainly an interesting tool for a class like Paladin, with easy minion generation and myriad buffs.
That's gonna be one of the interesting questions here. The text just says "when they die," so if the check is something like "whenever one dies, see if your enemy controls any more," then single target polymorphing or bouncing won't do much. I would assume it works that way because if it doesn't, you get totally screwed.
The ones without evasion are frequently least impactful to copy (since many have battlecries). Also, most of your minions become so expensive that this would just be a win more card in Embiggen Druid because you'd have to be winning on board to reasonably play it.
Slightly better Molten Reflection in a class that frequently plays big minions. Especially with the reveal of Ysiel Windsinger, this could be a powerful combo tool in Druid.
Ysiel Windsinger has incredible art, and that's a very powerful effect. Combined with Imprisoned Satyr or used in Quest Druid on turn 10 you could easily play her along with Nourish for an explosive turn.
Mok'Nathal Lion looks like a meta-defining card. "4 mana deal 5 to a minion" is already very fair removal for Hunter. Add in just about any decent deathrattle and you're looking at a massive tempo swing.
Depending on whether you activate the battlecry, this is either a slightly understated elemental or Consecration with a 1 mana 4/4 attached (since it deals damage to all minions).
Ultimately, I think this is a good card, but will struggle in search of a home. Shaman has enough AOE to play a Big Spell/The Fist of Ra-den Shaman without this, and probably doesn't want a lower power symmetric AOE if they're playing a board-centric aggro or midrange shaman.
By drawing the right cards in time i talk about boardwipes that are needed to stop aggro, you eighter get them early or you get overun.
Also you got an completely strange idea of combo decks if you think that control beats combo (aka decks that knows ways to oneshot kill you if they get their combo assembled). Whoever told you that control is bad versus aggro can't have a clue of what he is talking about since control uses the most removal to stop aggro from doing it's thing.
I understand that the basic rock-paper-scissors model for control-aggro-combo is not perfect, but it's a widely discussed and classic way of thinking about the major deck archetypes of CCGs, and helps to understand an idealized way that these archetypes should balance each other out. (And for what it's worth, I never claimed that every CCG achieves this successfully, I merely said that "in good CCGs, Aggro, Control, and Combo archetypes balance each other out.") To elaborate a bit more on this model:
Aggro decks use cheap cards to push for damage early in the game and run their opponent down before they can marshal an effective response. They often run out of steam in the mid to late game because they've already played their hands out, so they typically don't have a lot of room for tech cards. This is fine because they plan to win early enough that most tech cards won't be super valuable.
Combo decks play a little bit like control, but use a combination of cards to create some kind of win condition. They tend to value consistency because they need to get to their combo, so you'll see a lot of card draw and ways to slow down the game long enough to draw into that combo, but there's typically not a heck of a lot else in these decks in terms of win conditions.
Control decks have a lot of high value endgame tools to simply win the game by virtue of having "better" cards. Because they have inevitability on their side, they're able to play cards that slow the game down, including combo disruption cards (examples from HS include Dirty Rat and Counterspell, or Deny and Will of Ionia in LoR). Once they've successfully disrupted their opponent's win condition (via removal, combo disruption, etc.), they just win because their opponent only has low value cards left while they have high value cards.
These basic archetypes naturally give way to a rock-paper-scissors setup, but it's true that if a CCG decides to create some super cheap, super powerful AOE, that balance will be out of wack. You're certainly right that a metagame that allows for such rampant control would be degenerate.
But what we're seeing in Legends of Runeterra is that a large number of valuable control tools that they've printed also neatly slot into aggressive decks, so today we have rampant aggro and exactly the same degeneracy. You seem to bemoan the idea of fixing this at the risk of making control too good, but if they don't fix it at all, it will just mean aggro is too good. That's fine for aggro players, but it's not a particularly healthy way to grow your game.
Yes, you're right, I misspoke. What I meant is that the 12/12 body can't do anything on the turn it wakes up. Between the delay during which you're working to wake him up, and the lack of charge, your opponent will have a lot of time to find the removal they need to kill Magtheridon.
Also, the board wipe is symmetric, and killing your enemies minions is typically only going to happen when you spend mana on your turn (except maybe with Doomsayer), so it's not like you'll have a ton of mana to rebuild your board when he wakes up. At that point, you've put all your eggs in one very vulnerable basket.
Sethekk Veilweaver makes the upcoming Power Word: Shield nerf feel a lot less bad. Priest also has access to Silence and Lazul's Scheme for some easy ways to generate some spells and impact the game immediately with this, not to mention the myriad 1 and 2 drop spells to follow up with on your next turn.
That's certainly what Wizards of the Coast thought when they introduced the suspend mechanic into MTG. I've definitely thought the same thing as I've looked at these cards. Some have effects that will impact the board when they wake up, but not all, and it can feel pretty bad to spend your early turns doing nothing, or top decking a card that is effectively blank for two turns.
At this point, we have to just assume because these imprisoned cards are a big part of this expansion, they've taken extra care to test these cards to determine whether or not they're reasonably playable.
Awakening him is a fair amount of work (killing three 1/3's is easier than hoping your enemy draws three cards from somewhere in their deck, but it's not entirely trivial)
He won't have an impact the turn he wakes up
He's definitely cool enough and powerful enough that people will try to make him work, the flavor is 100% on point, and he'll awaken a lot more consistently than The Darkness, but I suspect we'll see a lot of people feeling pretty bummed when their mini-quest 4-drop is killed by a newly buffed Shadow Word: Death before he gets to do anything.
Imprisoned Felmaw is more interesting than I thought on first glance. It hits an random enemy, so it can hit the enemy face. If you're playing some kind of Face Hunter deck, you're probably typically planning to use your hero power on turn 2 anyway, so with this you could plan to try and control the board on turns 1 and 3, and use your turn 2 to prepare for a big hit to the face.
In more of a control archetype, you can play this on 2, play Deadly Shot on turn 3 to help clear enemies out, and then on turn 4 you're playing into what is (hopefully) an empty board.
I dont know if you want to have a state of control like in mtg or hearthstone where you just spam value genegerators(like PWs), play denial(counterspells/discard) and cheap boardwipes in a deck, hope that you draw the fitting cards in time and call that a deck/game.
That should not become the concept in LoR because it is just a joykilling concept (to lock games down).
MTG and Hearthstone are the two most popular and successful CCGs, and have been for years and years. I certainly don't think Runeterra should try to be exactly like them (after all, if it were exactly like them what would be the point of playing?) but clearly people have enjoyed and continue to enjoy those games to this day, so Runeterra should probably take some notes.
So you say that you want lock down to be a thing in runeterra? Thanks for your honest degeneracy :)
What you're describing as "degeneracy" (slowing the game down with counter spells and/or removal tools, and then out-valuing an opponent with more expensive and powerful cards in the late game) is exactly the definition of the control archetype in CCGs. And to the point about "draw the fitting cards in time," I assume you're talking about combo decks. In good CCGs, Aggro, Control, and Combo archetypes balance each other out; Aggro beats Control, Control beats Combo, Combo beats Aggro.
Degeneracy is not having powerful control tools, degeneracy is rampant aggro archetypes. As Marega pointed out, "Spooky Karma" is the only real control deck, and notably the most successful aggro archetypes are able to abuse some of the best Ionia and Shadow Isles control tools (e.g. Deny, Will of Ionia, Glimpse Beyond) to shut down Combo and Control decks.
More than anything, I think this reflects a failure of the base set in Legends of Runeterra. They may be able to patch some of the existing cards to help change which archetypes are excited about using them, but ultimately they will need to add new cards soon to make this game a real competitor to HS and MTG.
I dont know if you want to have a state of control like in mtg or hearthstone where you just spam value genegerators(like PWs), play denial(counterspells/discard) and cheap boardwipes in a deck, hope that you draw the fitting cards in time and call that a deck/game.
That should not become the concept in LoR because it is just a joykilling concept (to lock games down).
MTG and Hearthstone are the two most popular and successful CCGs, and have been for years and years. I certainly don't think Runeterra should try to be exactly like them (after all, if it were exactly like them what would be the point of playing?) but clearly people have enjoyed and continue to enjoy those games to this day, so Runeterra should probably take some notes.
Played outside of curve however, this thing is plain mediocre. Top deck this thing and its essentially draw nothing.
This is an interesting criticism that could be lobbed pretty equally at the entire cycle of imprisoned demons in this set. Some are probably more impactful in the late game than others, but you're always top-decking a card that does nothing in the moment.
Unsurprisingly, Imprisoned Vilefiend is uniquely weak when compared to the other four revealed imprisoned demons, but that's fine since it's neutral. More than anything, this is probably a card to showcase this new functionality on a neutral card.
If you can afford to play Imprisoned Vilefiend on 2, then getting a 3/5 on 4 with rush is pretty good. The fact that this can help you retake the board in the midgame certainly makes it interesting, but if you want to take control of the board in the midgame, why not spend your second turn playing a minion that can help you to do that immediately?
Firelands Portal for 5 is a great spell. It's gonna be pretty tough to run a deck that's got no minions (especially because a deck full of spells probably wants at least King Phaoris and Kael'thas Sunstrider), but you could always just run very light on minions and then draw aggressively through them. Mage certainly has no shortage of draw power.
Not as exciting with all of the magnetic cards rotating, but still certainly an interesting tool for a class like Paladin, with easy minion generation and myriad buffs.
Based on the last wave of updates on how copying works, it should maintain the buffs.
That's gonna be one of the interesting questions here. The text just says "when they die," so if the check is something like "whenever one dies, see if your enemy controls any more," then single target polymorphing or bouncing won't do much. I would assume it works that way because if it doesn't, you get totally screwed.
This Libram package could actually make The Last Kaleidosaur fun in wild.
The ones without evasion are frequently least impactful to copy (since many have battlecries). Also, most of your minions become so expensive that this would just be a win more card in Embiggen Druid because you'd have to be winning on board to reasonably play it.
Slightly better Molten Reflection in a class that frequently plays big minions. Especially with the reveal of Ysiel Windsinger, this could be a powerful combo tool in Druid.
Ysiel Windsinger has incredible art, and that's a very powerful effect. Combined with Imprisoned Satyr or used in Quest Druid on turn 10 you could easily play her along with Nourish for an explosive turn.
Mok'Nathal Lion looks like a meta-defining card. "4 mana deal 5 to a minion" is already very fair removal for Hunter. Add in just about any decent deathrattle and you're looking at a massive tempo swing.
Depending on whether you activate the battlecry, this is either a slightly understated elemental or Consecration with a 1 mana 4/4 attached (since it deals damage to all minions).
The pure elemental support (Elementary Reaction, Earthen Might, Menacing Nimbus) is rotating, and the best Shaman AOE cards in Standard (Earthquake and Hagatha's Scheme) aren't. Worse still, a lot of Shaman spells result in overload, meaning that Shattered Rumbler may have to compete with Cumulo-Maximus for a deck slot.
Ultimately, I think this is a good card, but will struggle in search of a home. Shaman has enough AOE to play a Big Spell/The Fist of Ra-den Shaman without this, and probably doesn't want a lower power symmetric AOE if they're playing a board-centric aggro or midrange shaman.
I understand that the basic rock-paper-scissors model for control-aggro-combo is not perfect, but it's a widely discussed and classic way of thinking about the major deck archetypes of CCGs, and helps to understand an idealized way that these archetypes should balance each other out. (And for what it's worth, I never claimed that every CCG achieves this successfully, I merely said that "in good CCGs, Aggro, Control, and Combo archetypes balance each other out.") To elaborate a bit more on this model:
These basic archetypes naturally give way to a rock-paper-scissors setup, but it's true that if a CCG decides to create some super cheap, super powerful AOE, that balance will be out of wack. You're certainly right that a metagame that allows for such rampant control would be degenerate.
But what we're seeing in Legends of Runeterra is that a large number of valuable control tools that they've printed also neatly slot into aggressive decks, so today we have rampant aggro and exactly the same degeneracy. You seem to bemoan the idea of fixing this at the risk of making control too good, but if they don't fix it at all, it will just mean aggro is too good. That's fine for aggro players, but it's not a particularly healthy way to grow your game.
Yes, you're right, I misspoke. What I meant is that the 12/12 body can't do anything on the turn it wakes up. Between the delay during which you're working to wake him up, and the lack of charge, your opponent will have a lot of time to find the removal they need to kill Magtheridon.
Also, the board wipe is symmetric, and killing your enemies minions is typically only going to happen when you spend mana on your turn (except maybe with Doomsayer), so it's not like you'll have a ton of mana to rebuild your board when he wakes up. At that point, you've put all your eggs in one very vulnerable basket.
Sethekk Veilweaver makes the upcoming Power Word: Shield nerf feel a lot less bad. Priest also has access to Silence and Lazul's Scheme for some easy ways to generate some spells and impact the game immediately with this, not to mention the myriad 1 and 2 drop spells to follow up with on your next turn.
That's certainly what Wizards of the Coast thought when they introduced the suspend mechanic into MTG. I've definitely thought the same thing as I've looked at these cards. Some have effects that will impact the board when they wake up, but not all, and it can feel pretty bad to spend your early turns doing nothing, or top decking a card that is effectively blank for two turns.
At this point, we have to just assume because these imprisoned cards are a big part of this expansion, they've taken extra care to test these cards to determine whether or not they're reasonably playable.
Wasn't Magtheridon purple (at least back in Warcraft 3 - I didn't play WoW Burning Crusade)?
At any rate, Magtheridon is probably not as good as he looks. Similar to The Darkness:
He's definitely cool enough and powerful enough that people will try to make him work, the flavor is 100% on point, and he'll awaken a lot more consistently than The Darkness, but I suspect we'll see a lot of people feeling pretty bummed when their mini-quest 4-drop is killed by a newly buffed Shadow Word: Death before he gets to do anything.
Imprisoned Felmaw is more interesting than I thought on first glance. It hits an random enemy, so it can hit the enemy face. If you're playing some kind of Face Hunter deck, you're probably typically planning to use your hero power on turn 2 anyway, so with this you could plan to try and control the board on turns 1 and 3, and use your turn 2 to prepare for a big hit to the face.
In more of a control archetype, you can play this on 2, play Deadly Shot on turn 3 to help clear enemies out, and then on turn 4 you're playing into what is (hopefully) an empty board.
What you're describing as "degeneracy" (slowing the game down with counter spells and/or removal tools, and then out-valuing an opponent with more expensive and powerful cards in the late game) is exactly the definition of the control archetype in CCGs. And to the point about "draw the fitting cards in time," I assume you're talking about combo decks. In good CCGs, Aggro, Control, and Combo archetypes balance each other out; Aggro beats Control, Control beats Combo, Combo beats Aggro.
Degeneracy is not having powerful control tools, degeneracy is rampant aggro archetypes. As Marega pointed out, "Spooky Karma" is the only real control deck, and notably the most successful aggro archetypes are able to abuse some of the best Ionia and Shadow Isles control tools (e.g. Deny, Will of Ionia, Glimpse Beyond) to shut down Combo and Control decks.
More than anything, I think this reflects a failure of the base set in Legends of Runeterra. They may be able to patch some of the existing cards to help change which archetypes are excited about using them, but ultimately they will need to add new cards soon to make this game a real competitor to HS and MTG.
MTG and Hearthstone are the two most popular and successful CCGs, and have been for years and years. I certainly don't think Runeterra should try to be exactly like them (after all, if it were exactly like them what would be the point of playing?) but clearly people have enjoyed and continue to enjoy those games to this day, so Runeterra should probably take some notes.
This is an interesting criticism that could be lobbed pretty equally at the entire cycle of imprisoned demons in this set. Some are probably more impactful in the late game than others, but you're always top-decking a card that does nothing in the moment.
Unsurprisingly, Imprisoned Vilefiend is uniquely weak when compared to the other four revealed imprisoned demons, but that's fine since it's neutral. More than anything, this is probably a card to showcase this new functionality on a neutral card.
If you can afford to play Imprisoned Vilefiend on 2, then getting a 3/5 on 4 with rush is pretty good. The fact that this can help you retake the board in the midgame certainly makes it interesting, but if you want to take control of the board in the midgame, why not spend your second turn playing a minion that can help you to do that immediately?
Firelands Portal for 5 is a great spell. It's gonna be pretty tough to run a deck that's got no minions (especially because a deck full of spells probably wants at least King Phaoris and Kael'thas Sunstrider), but you could always just run very light on minions and then draw aggressively through them. Mage certainly has no shortage of draw power.