FYI: Casts When Drawn always draws you another card. It never denies card draw. Just look at how Bomb works.
The idea is to have a neutral, playable but sub-optimal (maybe 4/3 would be better?) anti-Reno tech, that is not a game sealer against Reno, but it can buy precious turns (similar concept to Loatheb). Indeed, the shuffled cards are 1-costed, which means they can be cleared by Skulking Geist.
ALTERNATE, with a drawback for you (maybe this one should be called Nasty Cantrip instead)
Also notice it cannot prevent an early Zephrys the Great, because of its cost, and it's not an optimal body, nor a value generator for you (unlike Beneath the Grounds). Just a time-buyer against an incoming Highlander card, and barely a decent card anywhere else (similarly to Acidic Swamp Ooze, or Kezan Mystic).
What do you think?
Is the version with enemy 1/1 taunt more balanced and/or fun to encounter? Especially in Wild?
I also suspect occurrency is part of the reason why Elusive is not a keyword: minions with that particular power are very few, and not even common ones in the meta.
If we had more of them, and a more typical keyword, or at least the signature of an expansion, it'd probably be a keyword already.
We're working towards flagging cards that are missing their related friends. If you notice any, please give us a hand and report the cards in this thread.
Wouldn't be better to display directly the card image in the related cards section?
Just a minor feature ofc, but while you're there, I think the image is much more straightforward and immediate to check for a browsing user.
Refined for the new Wild meta, and updated with Mulligan guide.
It is still an off-meta deck, but it has plenty of cards to counter a number of meta decks in current Wild. The fact it is off-meta might actually help you in deceiving your opponent.
The countless episodes of vengeance in Stranglethorn, performed with my Rogue main against abusers killing my secondary characters while questing... The good ol' times.
I absolutely like (0) secrets for Rogues, it fits the class so much!
However, i think some of them are too powerful for such a cost. I still love the concept of what they do. It's really Rogue-like.
I also like the idea of Warlock secrets, although i'd prefer them to be themed only around Ghosts, Imps or Dreadlords, not other Demons or effects.
As for Warrior, i think they should have no Secrets at all, as Secrets are not just an automatic reaction, but also something that is prepared, an ace up your sleeves. Warriors are not subtle enough to fit that concept (even Paladins are marginally so but one could argue the ways of the Light are subtle, but Warriors are not at all).
I'm seriously proud of my Even Face Hunter, after many lost games, i managed to refine the deck, and hone my skills with it.
Rank4, 4stars now, and i could defeat Odd Rogues, Odd Paladins, Mech Paladins, Even Shamans, Big Priests, Mech Hunters, Warlocks, and even Secret Mages!
Surely the deck is far from invulnerable, even against the same decks i defeated, and it can suffer against Reno on t-6, but it doesn't feel like an off-meta deck anymore, while being absolutely original.
I wish i had a pro player to test it on my behalf, and see if it could become popular.
As far as I could understand, the meta is basically split between Secret Mage preying on the old meta, and Reno decks countering that.
It's not as polarised as it seems tho, as many (new) decks are developing in the middle.
Indeed, Secret Mages are setting a new "Wild standard", where you need reliable soak power (healing, armor) and/or reliable burn power (faster than theirs).
Secret Techs such as Eater of Secrets or Flare do help, but are not game-winners on their own. And I expect the tech necessity to fade in time, with decks refining in the new meta, and countering Secret Mages more efficiently, reducing their numbers. Maybe SI:7 Infiltrator will stay to remove Ice Block, because the body is not bad anyway.
The power of Genn/Baku is that the HP is available from turn-1, where the upgrade is very strong, and can apply early pressure.
Indeed, look at Justicar Trueheart: even if she started in your hand, she'd be acceptable at best, even if your deck was built around her. Because of her cost.
All in all, the OP's idea is kept in check by the mana cost of the activator. As long as that is properly balanced (and the alternate HP are not broken themselves) the concept will never be broken.
That's why Genn and Baku had a deckbuilding restriction, while Justicar does not. And I guess there are still some niche players, who use Justicar over Baku, at least one DaneHS.
In addition to that not even every class plays Genn and Baku, because its not worth it for the deckbuilding restriction and no real benefit from the hp. So I say that's why Genn and Baku are balanced.
While this suggestion is way cheaper, so it can be played earlier, so it shouldn't too good (weaker than quests) and has a on curve body, not like Justicar, who is terribly stated.
Yeah sure, but we are talking of mana cost and stats: these things can easily be balanced out with proper testing.
The overall mechanic is not potentially game-breaking.
Oh and yes, i absolutely agree Genn and Baku are balanced, because of their restriction (which people fail to realize, and tend complain of repetitiveness of gameplay, as if it was an objective argument).
But in this case, you don't need any, stats could always be nerfed if necessary, and the mechanic would stay viable nonetheless.
The power of Genn/Baku is that the HP is available from turn-1, where the upgrade is very strong, and can apply early pressure.
Indeed, look at Justicar Trueheart: even if she started in your hand, she'd be acceptable at best, even if your deck was built around her. Because of her cost.
All in all, the OP's idea is kept in check by the mana cost of the activator. As long as that is properly balanced (and the alternate HP are not broken themselves) the concept will never be broken.
eg. not just Reno, but also Hunter with burn power + Flare.
Basically teching is useful, but insufficient on its own. You need a counterstrategy first.
I have played Burn Mage myself, and overall it is truly insanely powerful, but Wild already contains a quantity of counterstrategies, so that at the end of the day, Secret Burn can prey on the old meta, and Wild is very slow at adapting to changes (except at high ranks), but that's it. The meta will adjust and keep it in check.
Actually, my real concern is that in the effort to adjust against Burn Mage, the meta turns into a Reno fiesta of indefinitely slow games (and notice it is is increasingly easy to also include OTK in Reno decks), which many may like, but i do not honestly...
Overall, i think the game should include more efficient and cheap techs for any strategy that roots into non-board synergies (secrets, weapons, graveyard, deck composition).
The Darkness should not be the only neutral anti-Reno. (There should be a non-legendary non-extreme one, say a (4) 4/4 that throws 3x useless spells, maybe (1)-costed, so that a Reno deck can try and find a Skulking Geist, etc)
Eater of Secrets should have a cheaper brother (even without the stats buff, removing even just 1x secret with, say, a (2) 2/2 is enough).
The existence of minimal but efficient techs for anything would ensure that any deck has better chances to adjust to any given meta, without the constant risk of having a deck turn from top tier to nearly garbage just because one deck receives broken support.
The only real dangerous (in perspective) Quest is Shaman, for two reasons:
1) completing it, implies no downside whatsoever, and the count requirement is pretty low.
2) the hero power being basically uncounterable, it allows for something that *can* easily lead to over-the-top powerlevels, especially in a class with already Shudderwock (which is a dangerous anomaly itself) in it.
Dunno, maybe it's just a feeling of mine, and it's not like i have never beaten it even with homebrews, but the matchup against it feels like an oppressive race, unless you are playing a t1 Tempo yourself.
All the other Quests fail to comply both #1 and 2# together.
Thing is, Zul'jin and Subject 9 already push you towards Singleton (if you want to maximize them), so the consistency cost to build a Highlander Hunter is further compensated.
It's not just Zephrys and Brann.
And yes, a charging 8/8 on turn-7 is THAT good.
It's not like Highlander Hunter will be the best Hunter forever, but the above is the reason why it is good.
However, I meant it as an extra tool in current Mage decks, both Conjurer and Reno.
So not a deck focused on the Quest, but one that plays its normal game, and then has an infinity value generator for lategame. Basically something like Deathstalker Rexxar in Midrange Hunter.
If Quest Mages are already like that, and still have 40% wr, then yeah, there's little hope for Mage in this meta.
EDIT:
OR:
FYI: Casts When Drawn always draws you another card. It never denies card draw. Just look at how Bomb works.
The idea is to have a neutral, playable but sub-optimal (maybe 4/3 would be better?) anti-Reno tech, that is not a game sealer against Reno, but it can buy precious turns (similar concept to Loatheb). Indeed, the shuffled cards are 1-costed, which means they can be cleared by Skulking Geist.
ALTERNATE, with a drawback for you (maybe this one should be called Nasty Cantrip instead)
Also notice it cannot prevent an early Zephrys the Great, because of its cost, and it's not an optimal body, nor a value generator for you (unlike Beneath the Grounds). Just a time-buyer against an incoming Highlander card, and barely a decent card anywhere else (similarly to Acidic Swamp Ooze, or Kezan Mystic).
Warrior today, other classes in the future.
It's all for the best anyway.
It's a fair change on Discovery.
It's actually a nerf tbh (and there pops up again the issue of indirect nerfs), but a fair one.
I also suspect occurrency is part of the reason why Elusive is not a keyword: minions with that particular power are very few, and not even common ones in the meta.
If we had more of them, and a more typical keyword, or at least the signature of an expansion, it'd probably be a keyword already.
Wouldn't be better to display directly the card image in the related cards section?
Just a minor feature ofc, but while you're there, I think the image is much more straightforward and immediate to check for a browsing user.
Refined for the new Wild meta, and updated with Mulligan guide.
It is still an off-meta deck, but it has plenty of cards to counter a number of meta decks in current Wild. The fact it is off-meta might actually help you in deceiving your opponent.
If you have any questions, feel free to ask! :)
The countless episodes of vengeance in Stranglethorn, performed with my Rogue main against abusers killing my secondary characters while questing... The good ol' times.
I absolutely like (0) secrets for Rogues, it fits the class so much!
However, i think some of them are too powerful for such a cost. I still love the concept of what they do. It's really Rogue-like.
I also like the idea of Warlock secrets, although i'd prefer them to be themed only around Ghosts, Imps or Dreadlords, not other Demons or effects.
As for Warrior, i think they should have no Secrets at all, as Secrets are not just an automatic reaction, but also something that is prepared, an ace up your sleeves. Warriors are not subtle enough to fit that concept (even Paladins are marginally so but one could argue the ways of the Light are subtle, but Warriors are not at all).
I'm seriously proud of my Even Face Hunter, after many lost games, i managed to refine the deck, and hone my skills with it.
Rank4, 4stars now, and i could defeat Odd Rogues, Odd Paladins, Mech Paladins, Even Shamans, Big Priests, Mech Hunters, Warlocks, and even Secret Mages!
Surely the deck is far from invulnerable, even against the same decks i defeated, and it can suffer against Reno on t-6, but it doesn't feel like an off-meta deck anymore, while being absolutely original.
I wish i had a pro player to test it on my behalf, and see if it could become popular.
As far as I could understand, the meta is basically split between Secret Mage preying on the old meta, and Reno decks countering that.
It's not as polarised as it seems tho, as many (new) decks are developing in the middle.
Indeed, Secret Mages are setting a new "Wild standard", where you need reliable soak power (healing, armor) and/or reliable burn power (faster than theirs).
Secret Techs such as Eater of Secrets or Flare do help, but are not game-winners on their own. And I expect the tech necessity to fade in time, with decks refining in the new meta, and countering Secret Mages more efficiently, reducing their numbers. Maybe SI:7 Infiltrator will stay to remove Ice Block, because the body is not bad anyway.
Yeah sure, but we are talking of mana cost and stats: these things can easily be balanced out with proper testing.
The overall mechanic is not potentially game-breaking.
Oh and yes, i absolutely agree Genn and Baku are balanced, because of their restriction (which people fail to realize, and tend complain of repetitiveness of gameplay, as if it was an objective argument).
But in this case, you don't need any, stats could always be nerfed if necessary, and the mechanic would stay viable nonetheless.
The power of Genn/Baku is that the HP is available from turn-1, where the upgrade is very strong, and can apply early pressure.
Indeed, look at Justicar Trueheart: even if she started in your hand, she'd be acceptable at best, even if your deck was built around her. Because of her cost.
All in all, the OP's idea is kept in check by the mana cost of the activator. As long as that is properly balanced (and the alternate HP are not broken themselves) the concept will never be broken.
Absolutely!
Theme >>> anything else.
And with some luck, proper tweaking, and self-training, it ends up being just as good!
Costs (4) exactly like EoS.
And (4) 4/3 is not (2) 2/2. Like, at all.
Decks with healing and armor + tech.
Decks with outburn power + tech.
eg. not just Reno, but also Hunter with burn power + Flare.
Basically teching is useful, but insufficient on its own. You need a counterstrategy first.
I have played Burn Mage myself, and overall it is truly insanely powerful, but Wild already contains a quantity of counterstrategies, so that at the end of the day, Secret Burn can prey on the old meta, and Wild is very slow at adapting to changes (except at high ranks), but that's it. The meta will adjust and keep it in check.
Actually, my real concern is that in the effort to adjust against Burn Mage, the meta turns into a Reno fiesta of indefinitely slow games (and notice it is is increasingly easy to also include OTK in Reno decks), which many may like, but i do not honestly...
Overall, i think the game should include more efficient and cheap techs for any strategy that roots into non-board synergies (secrets, weapons, graveyard, deck composition).
The Darkness should not be the only neutral anti-Reno. (There should be a non-legendary non-extreme one, say a (4) 4/4 that throws 3x useless spells, maybe (1)-costed, so that a Reno deck can try and find a Skulking Geist, etc)
Eater of Secrets should have a cheaper brother (even without the stats buff, removing even just 1x secret with, say, a (2) 2/2 is enough).
More Hungry Dragon cards.
Etc.
The existence of minimal but efficient techs for anything would ensure that any deck has better chances to adjust to any given meta, without the constant risk of having a deck turn from top tier to nearly garbage just because one deck receives broken support.
The only real dangerous (in perspective) Quest is Shaman, for two reasons:
1) completing it, implies no downside whatsoever, and the count requirement is pretty low.
2) the hero power being basically uncounterable, it allows for something that *can* easily lead to over-the-top powerlevels, especially in a class with already Shudderwock (which is a dangerous anomaly itself) in it.
Dunno, maybe it's just a feeling of mine, and it's not like i have never beaten it even with homebrews, but the matchup against it feels like an oppressive race, unless you are playing a t1 Tempo yourself.
All the other Quests fail to comply both #1 and 2# together.
Thing is, Zul'jin and Subject 9 already push you towards Singleton (if you want to maximize them), so the consistency cost to build a Highlander Hunter is further compensated.
It's not just Zephrys and Brann.
And yes, a charging 8/8 on turn-7 is THAT good.
It's not like Highlander Hunter will be the best Hunter forever, but the above is the reason why it is good.
Indeed.
However, I meant it as an extra tool in current Mage decks, both Conjurer and Reno.
So not a deck focused on the Quest, but one that plays its normal game, and then has an infinity value generator for lategame. Basically something like Deathstalker Rexxar in Midrange Hunter.
If Quest Mages are already like that, and still have 40% wr, then yeah, there's little hope for Mage in this meta.
I wonder if Mage should try Raid the Sky Temple.
All Mage decks are pretty slow atm, and maybe could afford to sacrifice turn-1 in favour of infinite steam for lategame?
So far:
Wild Bloodstinger pulling out and killing Zephrys the Great.
And in the same game, enemy Ice Block removed by my Flare.
I won against a Renomage, with my Uldum-powered Even Hunter.